Going from 7.1 surround to 9.1 - Help

daddyjt · February 1

About 4 years ago, I built the theater room I’ve been wanting for the past 25 years (photo below). It was a modest 7.1 system based around an Onkyo receiver (used as a processor only) with all channels driven by external amplification.

Well… back in October, our under sink RO water filter developed a leak sometime in the middle of the night, flooding our kitchen, and my theater room that sits under the kitchen. We have jumped through all the insurance company hurdles, and I will be starting (re)construction now. I’m going to upgrade to a 9.1 system because - well why not? I have to do all the work anyway, I might as well get something out of it.

I’ve settled on a Marantz SR6015 receiver that I will run as a processor with external amplification. I chose the Marantz because it has a 7.1 channel analog input for my SACD and DVD-A surround listening, and because I’ve had great luck with the Marantz units.

My question for the experts here, is where do I mount the “height” channels? I’m planning on Klipsch in-wall speakers to match my RF7-RC7-RS7 setup. Should they go in the ceiling, or high up on the front wall (I’ve heard both options)? If in the ceiling, how far back from the mains or how close to the listening spots? How far away from the side walls? The room is 18’ x 12’ with 9’ ceilings.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Before the flood:

After the flood:

Marantz SR6015

VR3 · February 1

I not your guy for ht advice but I highly recommend a Flo by moen

Emlyn · February 1

In-ceiling is best if it's an option. That provides panning effects between front and rear. Height speakers don't really do that. Atmos modules firing up at the ceiling or down from front and rear walls are an option but they don't work as well as in-ceiling speakers do.

Two sets of Atmos modules would be optimal but one would be fine. I think that would be a 7.1.4 system.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.4-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/

I don't have in-ceiling speakers and I'm happy with the modules firing up and bouncing sound off the ceiling though.

The standard now for an Atmos enabled system is to have the base layer speakers (the main 7) at seated level. The Atmos speakers are the height effects.

rooftop59 · February 1

I would recommend a 5.1.4 setup, which is what I have. I have two sets of def tech PM800s as atmos heights mounted to the ceiling and angled down at the listening position. The front heights are several feet in front of the mains, and the rear heights are just behind the listening position, angled almost straight down. I think it sounds great that way, but I am not a professional and I don't have the energy or motivation to try a different position lol...

By the way, sweet theater! Glad the insurance came through.

Emlyn · February 1

Good point. I recently went from 7.2.2 back to 5.2.2 because I have L800s with the L900 modules as the main speakers. The sound from those is enveloping to the sides and above and I eventually found separate side surrounds to be distracting and taking up room unnecessarily. Now the only surrounds are rear speakers lined up with the main speakers.

daddyjt · February 1

rooftop59 wrote: »

I would recommend a 5.1.4 setup, which is what I have. I have two sets of def tech PM800s as atmos heights mounted to the ceiling and angled down at the listening position. The front heights are several feet in front of the mains, and the rear heights are just behind the listening position, angled almost straight down. I think it sounds great that way, but I am not a professional and I don't have the energy or motivation to try a different position lol...

By the way, sweet theater! Glad the insurance came through.

OK, I'm thinking my terminology is incorrect right out of the gate - I was assuming that a system with front L&R, Center, surround L&R, back surround L&R, height L&R and 1x sub would be designated 9.1. Would this configuration in fact be a 7.1.2?

I also never considered eliminating the back surround speakers and having 4x height speakers - thus the 5.1.4. In this configuration, would the height speakers over the listening position be fed the back surround signal, or a height signal?

daddyjt · February 1

Emlyn wrote: »

In-ceiling is best if it's an option. That provides panning effects between front and rear. Height speakers don't really do that. Atmos modules firing up at the ceiling or down from front and rear walls are an option but they don't work as well as in-ceiling speakers do.

Two sets of Atmos modules would be optimal but one would be fine. I think that would be a 7.1.4 system.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.4-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/

I don't have in-ceiling speakers and I'm happy with the modules firing up and bouncing sound off the ceiling though.

The standard now for an Atmos enabled system is to have the base layer speakers (the main 7) at seated level. The Atmos speakers are the height effects.

In-ceiling is definitely an option, and is what I was planning.

rooftop59 · February 1

daddyjt wrote: »

rooftop59 wrote: »

I would recommend a 5.1.4 setup, which is what I have. I have two sets of def tech PM800s as atmos heights mounted to the ceiling and angled down at the listening position. The front heights are several feet in front of the mains, and the rear heights are just behind the listening position, angled almost straight down. I think it sounds great that way, but I am not a professional and I don't have the energy or motivation to try a different position lol...

By the way, sweet theater! Glad the insurance came through.

OK, I'm thinking my terminology is incorrect right out of the gate - I was assuming that a system with front L&R, Center, surround L&R, back surround L&R, height L&R and 1x sub would be designated 9.1. Would this configuration in fact be a 7.1.2?

I also never considered eliminating the back surround speakers and having 4x height speakers - thus the 5.1.4. In this configuration, would the height speakers over the listening position be fed the back surround signal, or a height signal?

Yes, you would be running 7.1.2 with your current configuration. I have not tried it personally.

If you go with 5.1.4, you would plug your rear-height speakers into one of the height outputs and the front-height speakers into the other, and then during the setup menu, you would choose the location. It's the same way on my Denon. It looks like you could go up to 11 channels with an external amp, and if it's like my Denon, you could assign any channels to the amp. So, I just use the AVR (which has power for 7 but preouts for 9) to power the atmos channels, and external amps for the main five channels.

daddyjt · February 1

rooftop59 wrote: »

daddyjt wrote: »

rooftop59 wrote: »

I would recommend a 5.1.4 setup, which is what I have. I have two sets of def tech PM800s as atmos heights mounted to the ceiling and angled down at the listening position. The front heights are several feet in front of the mains, and the rear heights are just behind the listening position, angled almost straight down. I think it sounds great that way, but I am not a professional and I don't have the energy or motivation to try a different position lol...

By the way, sweet theater! Glad the insurance came through.

OK, I'm thinking my terminology is incorrect right out of the gate - I was assuming that a system with front L&R, Center, surround L&R, back surround L&R, height L&R and 1x sub would be designated 9.1. Would this configuration in fact be a 7.1.2?

I also never considered eliminating the back surround speakers and having 4x height speakers - thus the 5.1.4. In this configuration, would the height speakers over the listening position be fed the back surround signal, or a height signal?

Yes, you would be running 7.1.2 with your current configuration. I have not tried it personally.

If you go with 5.1.4, you would plug your rear-height speakers into one of the height outputs and the front-height speakers into the other, and then during the setup menu, you would choose the location. It's the same way on my Denon. It looks like you could go up to 11 channels with an external amp, and if it's like my Denon, you could assign any channels to the amp. So, I just use the AVR (which has power for 7 but preouts for 9) to power the atmos channels, and external amps for the main five channels.

I suppose now the question is, do I do TWO pairs of height channels AND rear surrounds for a 7.1.4 system? Or is it best to eliminate the back surrounds when going with a height channel above the listening position?

Man - I used to know EVERYTHING about HT and it’s setup - I feel like the tech just ran away from me in the past 5 years or so…

Kex · February 1

It’s just gotten too complicated.

I’m thinking of going back to 2.2! 😂

*but spending big on the individual components.

Emlyn · February 1

A pair of base layer surround speakers is needed for an Atmos system. Otherwise the panning effects from front to rear would be incomplete and end above rather than from behind.

VR3 · February 1

I think for most average size rooms 5.1 is enough lol. I run all in ceiling and I can't imagine anywhere else to put a speaker.

My room is 25x15

ChrisD06 · February 1

I've heard that in-ceiling height speakers are usually only worth it once you have 4 of then.

In my personal listening experience, while I've not used Atmos in my system, I have compared 5.2 and 7.2 and I'd take the 7.2 hands down but if you want to get 9 channel surround and your options are 5.1.4, 7.1.2, or 9.1, I'd personally pick 5.1.4.

That's about all I can contribute

Emlyn · February 2

ChrisD06 wrote: »

I've heard that in-ceiling height speakers are usually only worth it once you have 4 of then.

Not true. Most Atmos "home theater" systems in the real world don't have four height speakers in ceiling because it's not practical. Dolby provides instructions for many different configurations that people can live with including 2.1.2 systems. The system I use the most is a 3.0.2 system in a 12 x 12 room that doesn't need a subwoofer.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/

Is four height speakers better? In some rooms, yes. In some rooms a 9.4.6 system might be better.

It's also possible to have a hybrid on wall/in-ceiling height speaker system along with the base layer of speakers. That could be a 9.2.6 system in real dedicated home theater room.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/9.1.6-mounted-overhead-speakers-setup-guide/

There is no one right way to do things but there are many similar effective ways.

ChrisD06 · February 2

Emlyn wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

I've heard that in-ceiling height speakers are usually only worth it once you have 4 of then.

Not true. Most Atmos "home theater" systems in the real world don't have four height speakers in ceiling because it's not practical. Dolby provides instructions for many different configurations that people can live with including 2.1.2 systems. The system I use the most is a 3.0.2 system in a 12 x 12 room that doesn't need a subwoofer.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/

Is four height speakers better? In some rooms, yes. In some rooms a 9.4.6 system might be better.

It's also possible to have a hybrid on wall/in-ceiling height speaker system along with the base layer of speakers. That could be a 9.2.6 system in real dedicated home theater room.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/9.1.6-mounted-overhead-speakers-setup-guide/

There is no one right way to do things but there are many similar effective ways.

Thank you for clarifying. I'll keep this in mind.

I wanted to do a 7.2.2 system but I was led astray by the people saying I'd need at least 4 in ceilings.

daddyjt · February 7

I’ve settled on a 7.1.4 system, and I have ordered 4x in ceiling speakers that are 8” woofer w/ 1” silk tweeter coax mounted. I’ve also got new Klipsch back surrounds coming that are 6” woofer and 1.25” tweeter. These are wedge shaped to direct their sound to the listening area.

My conundrum now is the side surrounds. The Dolby layout (thank you @Emlyn ) has them on-axis with the listening position, at EAR LEVEL…

THIS is a challenge, because that would put them in the “green” area on the below pic - NOT ideal from an esthetic point… question is, can I move them to the “red” area, and fashion a wood “wedge” to point them down at the listening area, and compensate with delay settings?

pitdogg2 · February 7

In my former life my JBL HLS 610's were above my head and pointing down. I never had a problem with them or the sound. As long as you have a stud to screw into, why not?

Emlyn · February 7

I agree the side surrounds would be fine mounted higher. The idea is to get an enveloping soundfield in a setup that can be lived with and there's more than one way to make it work.

Going from 7.1 surround to 9.1 - Help

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