FRANKEN-POLK Definition?
Toolfan66
Posts: 17,211
What makes a Polk Audio Speaker a Franken-Polk? What are the things you see that someone has done to give the speaker that name?
I get the use of a different brand of driver, or tweeter, or putting in a powered sub where the passive goes.
But what other things give it this Frankenstein name?
I am asking because of the the VH M7’s I built, and was mentioned a couple times, not just here but on the Facebook Polk page.
It doesn’t bother me in the least if someone sees these as that. I can see where these can skate that line, but they do have the original drivers (modified yes) the RD-0198’s, and original passives, BH5, updated crossovers.
I am more curious of what pushes speakers to that name/level to be called a Franken-Polk..
I get the use of a different brand of driver, or tweeter, or putting in a powered sub where the passive goes.
But what other things give it this Frankenstein name?
I am asking because of the the VH M7’s I built, and was mentioned a couple times, not just here but on the Facebook Polk page.
It doesn’t bother me in the least if someone sees these as that. I can see where these can skate that line, but they do have the original drivers (modified yes) the RD-0198’s, and original passives, BH5, updated crossovers.
I am more curious of what pushes speakers to that name/level to be called a Franken-Polk..
Post edited by Toolfan66 on
Comments
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Even though you have the original drivers, the phase plug is not.
I admire your skills with the binding post " cup" that is IMHO much better than the original.
I believe you answered your own question in the second paragraph. -
So most* of all the mods we have done over the past decade or so were the brain child with discussions with Polk directly...
The things being done recently.... Not so much. I think once you start directly altering the original design in the way of phase plugs etc then you are entering Franken Polk territory.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
So most* of all the mods we have done over the past decade or so were the brain child with discussions with Polk directly...
The things being done recently.... Not so much. I think once you start directly altering the original design in the way of phase plugs etc then you are entering Franken Polk territory.
Some of the mods came directly from Matt himself if memory serves me right. -
Yes, most of what we do is stuff Polk couldn't do back in the day due to cost or lack of available tech.
Phase plugs have been around a long time and if they wanted to use them I believe they would have for sure, minimal cost difference over a dust cap.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
I’m not a “modder” so my opinion probably doesn’t mean much, but I’ve always thought of Franken-Polks as being a hack job as opposed to someone who knows what they are doing and are truly improving/repairing the speaker.
I think of a guy who has an old pair of non-working Monitor 7’s and a bunch of random speaker parts. Viola…the “Monitor 7’s” are working again.Post edited by PSOVLSK onThings work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
Questionable performance modifications is one. Some mods seem to be done just because rather than from an understanding of acoustical engineering.
Downright hacks such as replacing the OEM drivers with God knows what.
Cosmetic modifications is another. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but chances are others won't share your vision.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Any successful mod must without question improve the sonic accuracy and realism of the speakers. Anything otherwise is (as noted above) a "hack job". I don't mind the alterations to the VH M7's @Toolfan66 built. They are the confluence of restoration, creativity, craft, and skill. I'd bet they sound better than stock as well.
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Yes, most of what we do is stuff Polk couldn't do back in the day due to cost or lack of available tech.
Phase plugs have been around a long time and if they wanted to use them I believe they would have for sure, minimal cost difference over a dust cap.
If this is true, why didn't Polk add butyl mat to the baskets before they left the factory?Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
I've seen Franklin-Polks before;
Speakers: Polk Lsim, ATC SCM19 v2, NHT SuperzeroSpeaker Cables: DH Labs, Transparent, Wireworld, Canare, Monster: Beer budget, Bose ears -
Stock…
Restomod…
Hack…
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Even though you have the original drivers, the phase plug is not.
I admire your skills with the binding post " cup" that is IMHO much better than the original.
I believe you answered your own question in the second paragraph.So most* of all the mods we have done over the past decade or so were the brain child with discussions with Polk directly...
The things being done recently.... Not so much. I think once you start directly altering the original design in the way of phase plugs etc then you are entering Franken Polk territory.
But couldn’t the same be said about the binding post cup, cutting the hole in the cabinet for the cup, adding cabinet bracing, rings, and even Robs tweeter face plates, as the phase plug not being original? I don’t believe any of that came down from the people at Polk, and many of us did so.
Trust me I know the phase plug is controversial here, and Rob has taken a lot of smack about them, even from me. That is one of, if not the biggest reason I kept quiet about using them in this project, I knew it would be hated on out the gate. When Rob reached out, I was already thinking about trying them, that this would be the perfect time, and project to do so.
I am not defending Rob’s mods, he can and has done that himself. I am/was just curious to others thoughts on where the line is crossed for a speaker to become a Frankenstein. It’s Alive, It’s Alive. LOL!!!
The kicker here is, I am not disliking what these speakers are doing, no matter what genre I have thrown at them they sound excellent..I’m not a “modder” so my opinion probably doesn’t mean much, but I’ve always thought of Franken-Polks as being a hack job as opposed to someone who knows what they are doing and are truly improving/repairing the speaker.
I think of a guy who has an old pair of non-working Monitor 7’s and a bunch of random speaker parts. Viola…the “Monitor 7’s” are working again.
I have to agree.. -
Guess these speakers have even more in common with Eddie’s Frankenstrat!! LOL!!
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Imo, butyl mat is way more labor intensive then utilizing a phase plug. Even if it is pre cut and the material itself is kind of pricey.
Having a cnc machine routing a hole in the magnet then having a worker put glue on the bottom of a plastic phase plug and inserting it in a hole is fairly simple.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Yes, most of what we do is stuff Polk couldn't do back in the day due to cost or lack of available tech.
Phase plugs have been around a long time and if they wanted to use them I believe they would have for sure, minimal cost difference over a dust cap.
If this is true, why didn't Polk add butyl mat to the baskets before they left the factory?
Dynamat wasn't introduced until 1989, so at the end of the vintage Polk speaker models. Not clear if there was a product like it before then.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Imo, butyl mat is way more labor intensive then utilizing a phase plug. Even if it is pre cut and the material itself is kind of pricey.
Having a cnc machine routing a hole in the magnet pole piece then having a worker put glue on the bottom of a plastic aluminum phase plug and inserting it in a hole is fairly simple.
Say the extra machining and assembly labor time plus machine time and materials cost added up to maybe $20 per driver. If their profit per speaker was $80 previously, now they have reduced their corporate profit by 25%. I know Polk contemplated going public but never did, but if they reported that on their quarterly earnings report, the shareholders would probably sue or something
George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
binding post cup
The binding post cup is literally falling apart at this point... Cracked etc, replacing it with a similar aluminum equivalent only makes sense.
cutting the hole in the cabinet for the cup
Shouldn't need to alter the cabinet for a replacement??
adding cabinet bracing
Not aware of anything adding bracing or this being a modification done in scale
rings
Again, wood screws, 30 year old particles board... Only makes sense to install something that allows the drivers to be properly fastened.
These are functional, they may increase performance because they reinforce the existing design, except the bracing part... Not aware of this being done
and even Robs tweeter face plates
From what I've seen they are a carbon copy of the original except aluminum- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Rob's tweeter plates are pretty much an exact replica of the stock ones, just made from a superior material to ... plastic. This keeps them out of the "Franken-Polk" category to me.
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
Guess these speakers have even more in common with Eddie’s Frankenstrat!! LOL!!
Those are works of art and very well thought-out. I'm a fan.
As an aside, I would suggest you spend some time doing some critical listening with the outer midwoofer rings removed. We all know DL Roth is not critical listening 😜
Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
Horns, mate.
Horns.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »Horns, mate.
Horns.
📯🎺 -
Trust me I know the phase plug is controversial here, and Rob has taken a lot of smack about them, even from me. That is one of, if not the biggest reason I kept quiet about using them in this project, I knew it would be hated on out the gate. When Rob reached out, I was already thinking about trying them, that this would be the perfect time, and project to do so.
I'm not one to wade into controversy but I'll dip my toe in the water...
Larry, I've always interpreted your skilled mod's from the perspective of getting every extra inch out of the sound. Be it SDA or monitor.
What kind of rubs me wrong is the advice CPer's give to "try for yourself" when someone asks about this or that. Here's the rub...Rob and crew have done this and, from what I see, get the most flack from folks that haven't taken that advice before stating, absolutely, that it can't do what they've professed. Not that I think anyone's wrong...or right. Just an observation.
I think you're in a unique positition because you are one of the revered and trusted pioneer's on this forum. I kind of think you're doing Rob a disservice by not at least confirming what his mod's do...for you. Raiffe did this w/respect to the phase plug mod and SDA. A very trusted member and a valid reference point. Agree, disagree, he put it out there.
Not trying to debate this with anyone. Larry, you did what you do best with the VH "Frankenpolks". I'd expect no less from you. Mad props and, in the end, you're true to you. Rock on!➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
Trust me I know the phase plug is controversial here, and Rob has taken a lot of smack about them, even from me. That is one of, if not the biggest reason I kept quiet about using them in this project, I knew it would be hated on out the gate. When Rob reached out, I was already thinking about trying them, that this would be the perfect time, and project to do so.
I'm not one to wade into controversy but I'll dip my toe in the water...
Larry, I've always interpreted your skilled mod's from the perspective of getting every extra inch out of the sound. Be it SDA or monitor.
What kind of rubs me wrong is the advice CPer's give to "try for yourself" when someone asks about this or that. Here's the rub...Rob and crew have done this and, from what I see, get the most flack from folks that haven't taken that advice before stating, absolutely, that it can't do what they've professed. Not that I think anyone's wrong...or right. Just an observation.
I think you're in a unique positition because you are one of the revered and trusted pioneer's on this forum. I kind of think you're doing Rob a disservice by not at least confirming what his mod's do...for you. Raiffe did this w/respect to the phase plug mod and SDA. A very trusted member and a valid reference point. Agree, disagree, he put it out there.
Not trying to debate this with anyone. Larry, you did what you do best with the VH "Frankenpolks". I'd expect no less from you. Mad props and, in the end, you're true to you. Rock on!
Jay,
First, thank you for the kind comments, much appreciated..
I do agree with everything you’re saying, but Ray was in a much better unique position than I, for one Ray had/has a set of speakers he knows very well, and documented, so when he tried the phase plugs he had a blank canvas so to speak. My position is much different, I started with a set of speakers that were not worthy of even hooking up to your system, I never even listened to them.
So I went all out right from the start till they were done, and with all that I did it would be hard for me to comment on what changes the drivers/phase plugs have actually done, or are doing.
All I can say is they sound fantastic, from imaging, to the low end, I have no complaints. Remember I went into this for a fun, crazy project, a lot of this stuff I had laying around from other projects, including the binding post plates. But I did want them to sound good of course, and I can tell you the drivers are doing their job, they sound great, phase plugs and all. I have been enjoying them all week, so far nothing has me wanting to pull them out.
But I will add, none of this has me willing or wanting to do my SDA’s either.
Again thanks for the kind words, and your honest thoughts, and feedback..Post edited by Toolfan66 on -
Appreciate that (your explanation). I'm really speaking more about the difference w/and w/out the plugged driver. I believe it would be a fun and easy experiment to swap the drivers. I know you mentioned it, and believe you don't have the second drivers, but all I'd ask is if you were able to get the exact same you'd try it. I think your impression/opinion would have credibility and would bring some perspective to the forum at large.
And...in the interest of full disclosure...I ordered a set of the plugs from Rob and have the intention of using them in a set of 5A's or Jr's I have. You and I are hoarders. I have a stash of drivers that almost rivals yours....to include SW-150's! LOL. My plan is to do a comparison w/ and w/o. Unfortunately, I just haven't had the time to tackle them, yet. In fact, on a small break as I type this, I'm putting together a workbench for my basement that's part of my new work area that'll be used for such projects. Last thought, even though I will do the comparison....my words don't have the same clout yours do.
No a $ $ kissing here but obvious fact...you've earned your credibility.
As an aside, I have all the Mofi VH SACD's on backorder. Received VH1 the week before last and ripped the DSD 64 (SACD) layer to my server. Have to say...I'm really digging it. Definitely way more spacial, clear and Dave's vocals improved. Still need more time w/it but I'm not disappointed. My CD version had a bit to much digititis (is this a word?) and I found I avoided it. Not so with this and I'm jonesing for the next ones.
Peace,
John➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
Not that you need my approval but I don't see anything wrong with what you have done to the speakers a whole. Looks awesome and dare I say, if you decided to sell would add a premium to them- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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I would like to have them and I'm not even a big VH fan. Just a very cool build and great conversation pieces.
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=98099&page=64
I'd consider these to be Franken-Polks. I saw these 3 years ago lol haven't forgotten them since. -
Yes, most of what we do is stuff Polk couldn't do back in the day due to cost or lack of available tech.
Phase plugs have been around a long time and if they wanted to use them I believe they would have for sure, minimal cost difference over a dust cap.
If this is true, why didn't Polk add butyl mat to the baskets before they left the factory?
Dynamat wasn't introduced until 1989, so at the end of the vintage Polk speaker models. Not clear if there was a product like it before then.
"By the 1950s it had become common to increase damping in beams and plates by attaching a secondary
structural or “constraining” layer to the base structure using what was termed as “damping tape" "
This article is interesting but doesn't say when materials like Dynamat went onto the market. Clearly the technology was well known and in practice even in the infancy of Polk Audio.
https://aipp.silverchair-cdn.com/aipp/content_public/journal/poma/19/1/10.1121_1.4800606/4/pma.v19.i1.065023_1.online.pdf
George / NJ
Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
Onkyo A-8017 integrated
Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
iFi nano iDSD DAC
iPurifier3
iDefender w/ iPower PS
Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform -
The original meaning was just that some people had stuck entirely different speaker drivers in the cabinets for whatever reason whether it was to replace blown drivers or to experiment with whatever was at hand from Radio Shack. That included putting active drivers in place of passive radiators or replacing the soft dome tweeters with horn tweeters. Those are the only things that qualify as Frankenpolks in my view. Cosmetic and superficial changes don't matter except to the owner.
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More than anything, what constitutes a FrankenPolk (as a negative label), from the stage where a lot of tomatoes and rocks get thrown at, is:
'FrankenPolk, noun, negative connotation: What approximately a dozen members of this forum deem it to be at any given time.'
From my place on the stage, if you weren't a member of the cool kids' club, you'd have gotten a vigorous rogering from the box seats in the gallery.
I think what you made is fan-friggin-tastic. You won't find me in your thread making snide remarks and insulting your work over what you might have done that I don't like. That you love the brand enough to put that kind of effort into those speakers is a wonderful thing.
That others do the same, in their own ways, but get shat on- ruthlessly? That is hypocritical, whether we decide on a definition of FrankenPolk or not.
Even if the Creature had all the qualities and potential (possibly moreso) of a person, it was all torches and pitchforks from the frightened villagers- no matter if it deserved it or not.
The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * custom 5B on a system for my Dad * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage -
Facebook groups are about as toxic as they come- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
