ES20 vs ES50, Which Is Better for HTS?

FlyingTigerTexan
FlyingTigerTexan Posts: 3
in Speakers
Due to the Amazon deal last mont, I have the opportunity to have ES50s for the same price as the ES20. Given the same price, any recommendations as to which would have the better quality sound for home theater/movie use?
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Answers

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,495
    The sound signature is going to be close as they are the same series. The ES50 will give you the option to run full range and you won't have to buy stands to put the ES20's on.

    You will need to match the front 3 speakers for a seamless front stage. I strongly suggest you get the larger ES35 center channel. The rears matter less, but the ES20 would be a good choice.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • FlyingTigerTexan
    FlyingTigerTexan Posts: 3
    Would the 2x 5.25” woofers on the ES50 be considered better or worse than the single larger 6.5” woofer?

    As for the center, I have already tried the ES35, but thought the dialogue clarity off axis was not as good as I hoped. I am planning to try an SVS Prime Center instead.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    FlyingTigerTexan wrote: »
    Would the 2x 5.25” woofers on the ES50 be considered better or worse than the single larger 6.5” woofer?

    As for the center, I have already tried the ES35, but thought the dialogue clarity off axis was not as good as I hoped. I am planning to try an SVS Prime Center instead.

    Well there goes timbre matching.

    Try out the ES30 or ES40 first, you want the speakers timbre matched for seamless transitioning.

    In theory the dual 5.25" on the ES50 would be better but in practice this may not be the case. Give em a listen and see if you like them. I'd personally take them over the ES20 for fronts.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,994
    I agree on the timbre matching, even though it came from Chris.

    I'd definitely be going ES20 on stands over ES50s, but maybe the ES50s would be okay depending on the room size. I find that 5.25" drivers get swallowed up in larger spaces.

    Haven't heard the ES20s, but the S20s were pretty nice when I was checking them out for several weeks.

    @F1nut - you think the ES35 will best the ES30? Six 3" drivers vs the two 5.25"?
    Curious. I always liked that slim form factor Signature center, but never had a chance to check one out. I've only ever had centers with dual 6.5" drivers.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?
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  • FlyingTigerTexan
    FlyingTigerTexan Posts: 3
    edited August 2023
    ChrisD06 wrote: »

    Well there goes timbre matching.

    Several different posts, articles, and and videos I had seen on AVS Forum, ASR Forum, Reddit, etc, seemed to suggest timbre matching with a center speaker was basically impossible due to the different size and arrangement of components, and that the room correction software (Audyssey, Dirac) could help compensate regardless of brand/line match. I also read several comments of users specifically replacing the ES/S35 or ES/S30 with SVS Prime center (in setups using a Polk Elite/Signature mains) and being happy with the results.
    msg wrote: »
    I'd definitely be going ES20 on stands over ES50s, but maybe the ES50s would be okay depending on the room size. I find that 5.25" drivers get swallowed up in larger spaces.

    What would you consider a “larger space?” The total room is ~14x25, but the portion being used for home theater is roughly 14x12.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,495
    Try out the ES30 or ES40 first
    ES40?
    you think the ES35 will best the ES30?
    More drivers, more sound. Seems logical to me, but what do I know.



    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,495
    FlyingTigerTexan wrote: »
    Would the 2x 5.25” woofers on the ES50 be considered better or worse than the single larger 6.5” woofer?

    As for the center, I have already tried the ES35, but thought the dialogue clarity off axis was not as good as I hoped. I am planning to try an SVS Prime Center instead.

    Big mistake. You MUST timbre match the front three speakers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,994
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?
    Interesting question, and reminds me of a friend and others I've seen running a single bookshelf or floor stander as a center channel speaker, the same model as the L and R.

    I don't know the answer.

    I disabled signatures.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    F1nut wrote: »
    Try out the ES30 or ES40 first
    ES40?
    you think the ES35 will best the ES30?
    More drivers, more sound. Seems logical to me, but what do I know.



    Sorry I got confused. There is no ES40, I for some reason thought there was a dual 6.5" center called the ES40.

    I thought the Golden rule was more drivers isn't always better?
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    msg wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?
    Interesting question, and reminds me of a friend and others I've seen running a single bookshelf or floor stander as a center channel speaker, the same model as the L and R.

    I don't know the answer.

    Yeah I recall on here rtart wanted to use an RT3000p as a center, and someone explained that the horizontal center is a compromise and explained horizontal lobing. I guess it's why center channels have crappy off axis sound.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,495
    edited August 2023
    FlyingTigerTexan wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »

    Well there goes timbre matching.

    Several different posts, articles, and and videos I had seen on AVS Forum, ASR Forum, Reddit, etc, seemed to suggest timbre matching with a center speaker was basically impossible due to the different size and arrangement of components, and that the room correction software (Audyssey, Dirac) could help compensate regardless of brand/line match. I also read several comments of users specifically replacing the ES/S35 or ES/S30 with SVS Prime center (in setups using a Polk Elite/Signature mains) and being happy with the results.
    Whomever posted those comments are clueless and should be dismissed as such. Timbre matching has nothing to do with different sizes or the arrangement of the components. It has to do with the sound signature, which room correction software cannot change.

    For example, let's say you have horn based L&R speakers and a soft dome center channel speaker. No way in hell is room correction software going to make the front stage seamless.

    It's called ROOM correction software, not sound signature correction.
    Post edited by F1nut on
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,495
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?

    That is addressed by limiting (splitting up) the frequencies produced by the different drivers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,994
    msg wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Try out the ES30 or ES40 first
    ES40?
    you think the ES35 will best the ES30?
    More drivers, more sound. Seems logical to me, but what do I know.
    Sorry I got confused. There is no ES40, I for some reason thought there was a dual 6.5" center called the ES40.
    I thought the Golden rule was more drivers isn't always better?
    No, the Golden rule is "Chris doesn't know as much as he thinks he does."
    And neither does msg. msg has spent too much time making jokes.

    I disabled signatures.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    msg wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    msg wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?
    Interesting question, and reminds me of a friend and others I've seen running a single bookshelf or floor stander as a center channel speaker, the same model as the L and R.

    I don't know the answer.

    Yeah I recall on here rtart wanted to use an RT3000p as a center, and someone explained that the horizontal center is a compromise and explained horizontal lobing. I guess it's why center channels have crappy off axis sound.
    Yeah, I just read that about the off-axis performance, though it seems to be comfortably wide. Still though, I wonder how the ES35 presents...
    I always thought the earlier S35 was supposedly a compromise in output vs the S30, and that the S35 was an option for limited space. I've always liked the design though, and have been curious to hear one.

    I'm curious as to whether lobing is more an issue with a stereo pair with side-by-side drivers, like the Monitor 10s vs that of a center channel.

    Questions begetting questions here - center channel speakers are essentially mono, aren't they?

    Also, is a correctly oriented/toed L or R still considered off-axis?


    Center speakers are mono.

    The ES35 interests me because of it being an LCR. I'd be curious to see how it performs imwhen oriented vertically and being used for 5 or 7 channel surround.

    Toed in speakers are considered on axis. If it's radiating directly towards you, the sound is oriented 0 degrees.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    F1nut wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?

    That is addressed by limiting (splitting up) the frequencies produced by the different drivers.

    Oh Polk is still doing that? Was called Cascade Tapered Array and I didn't see them advertise it anymore so I figured they all just played the same frequency.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,495
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    I'm curious, wouldn't the ES35 be a horizontal lobing frenzy?

    That is addressed by limiting (splitting up) the frequencies produced by the different drivers.

    Oh Polk is still doing that? Was called Cascade Tapered Array and I didn't see them advertise it anymore so I figured they all just played the same frequency.

    Ask them.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,766
    edited August 2023
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    ...

    I thought the Golden rule was more drivers isn't always better?

    Where did you hear that?
    It's trading one set of problems (driver bandwidth, directivity, and performance at frequency extremes) for another (crossover complexity, electrical efficiency, phase and directivity anomalies at crossover) - at least for passive loudspeakers.

    That's why loudspeaker design and construction is, like it or not, an engineering exercise. Engineering in the sense that there is no perfect loudspeaker design, and engineers (crusty lot that they be) are adept at optimizing a matrix of compromises. Making lemonade out of lemons, if you will.

    Full disclosure: I am no engineer. I think as a scientist, not an engineer. Engineers can sure come in handy, though. B)

    lzqssczq8tl4.png
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    ...

    I thought the Golden rule was more drivers isn't always better?

    Where did you hear that?
    It's trading one set of problems (driver bandwidth, directivity, and performance at frequency extremes) for another (crossover complexity, electrical efficiency, phase and directivity anomalies at crossover) - at least for passive loudspeakers.

    That's why loudspeaker design and construction is, like it or not, an engineering exercise. Engineering in the sense that there is no perfect loudspeaker design, and engineers (crusty lot that they be) are adept at optimizing a matrix of compromises. Making lemonade out of lemons, if you will.

    Full disclosure: I am no engineer. I think as a scientist, not an engineer. Engineers can sure come in handy, though. B)

    lzqssczq8tl4.png

    I was told that by a few members of the DIY loudspeaker community. Comb filtering and lobing are I guess the biggest concerns but I can see lobing only being an issue for off axis listening (which for home theatre is a good concern).

    I'm aware line array speakers literally are just a giant column of like 25 speakers playing full range with DSP but their design makes it so you can't be off axis vertically where the lobing happens, so the design works.

    "That's why loudspeaker design and construction is, like it or not, an engineering exercise." TRUE THAT. My first build will likely be a passive 2-way with a 1" silk dome tweeter and a 6.5 midbass and even something as seemingly simple as that has so many factors to consider it's honestly MIND BENDING. I've spent around 2 months now continuously playing with WinISD and WinPCD and I'm still learning how they work, right now I'm trying to better understand crossovers (2nd, 3rd, 4th order. Butterworth, bessel, linkwitz-reiley) and it's really shown me just how much work and knowledge goes into a good loudspeaker and its certainly increased my level of respect for the engineers immensely. Cabinets are even more impressive, ever millimeter counts! It's so cool, man.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,766
    edited August 2023
    So, let's think about sound. Sound waves are longitudinal waves -- cyclic compression and rarefaction of the transmission medium (air, for most of us B) ). The wavelength depends on frequency and the speed of transmission of the wave in the medium in question. The wavelength of a 20 Hz tone is about 60 feet. The wavelength of a 20,000 Hz tone is about 0.66 inches.
    Now, take your sound source and put it in, say, a 10 x 14 x 8 foot room (i.e., a box or rectangular prism, technically speaking). Sound waves can interact with each other, interfering constructively or destructively depending on phase.

    56k9oyobni3e.gif
    This shows simple two-slit diffraction in two dimensions at one frequency in a nonreverberant space -- imagine this dynamic interference pattern encountering walls (boundaries) on all six sides. Then imagine it across three decades of frequencies (20 to 20k Hz).

    See how it can get... kinda complicated?

    And we haven't even touched on the notion that, for a loudspeaker, the sound waves are being produced by a vibrating piece of (typically) plastic, metal, or paper.

    It's amazing (nigh on miraculous) that reproduced audio can sound as good as it does. :)

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  • chrispyfur
    chrispyfur Posts: 170
    As far as the S35 goes I have one and I'm not a big fan of it. For me, it sounds thin. Unfortunately I don't have any other center to compare it against, but I'll probably end up with R400 eventually.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    So, let's think about sound. Sound waves are longitudinal waves -- cyclic compression and rarefaction of the transmission medium (air, for most of us B) ). The wavelength depends on frequency and the speed of transmission of the wave in the medium in question. The wavelength of a 20 Hz tone is about 60 feet. The wavelength of a 20,000 Hz tone is about 0.66 inches.
    Now, take your sound source and put it in, say, a 10 x 14 x 8 foot room (i.e., a box or rectangular prism, technically speaking). Sound waves can interact with each other, interfering constructively or destructively depending on phase.

    56k9oyobni3e.gif
    This shows simple two-slit diffraction in two dimensions at one frequency in a nonreverberant space -- imagine this dynamic interference pattern encountering walls (boundaries) on all six sides. Then imagine it across three decades of frequencies (20 to 20k Hz).

    See how it can get... kinda complicated?

    And we haven't even touched on the notion that, for a loudspeaker, the sound waves are being produced by a vibrating piece of (typically) plastic, metal, or paper.

    It's amazing (nigh on miraculous) that reproduced audio can sound as good as it does. :)

    This is super informative, thank you.

    I definitely have much to learn, especially as my end goal is to build my own 9.4.4 surround setup that's IMAX theatre level 💀 this is going to be a long, but fun ride.
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  • boston1450
    boston1450 Posts: 7,630
    Too many drivers. This reminds my of my now ex wife. Too many speaker. Nope. We need a bigger house. She didn't talk to me for a month. She moved out I put speakers in the bathroom that day. I do miss the dog
    ..
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,611
    Es35 is a 2 way
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    VR3 wrote: »
    Es35 is a 2 way

    Damn... Their website does only have one XO point listed but I looked down at some of the marketing mumbo jumbo and it mentioned "cascaded driver array" (I can't believe I missed that this whole time)

    Does the Reserve R400 use a 2.5 way config??
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,611
    So with that many drivers, not really sure how a cascaded array would be beneficial.

    Lets say the left woofers are doing the bass and the right woofers are a traditional midbass, how would that correct the issue having 3 drovers side by side doing the same frequency per side.

    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    VR3 wrote: »
    So with that many drivers, not really sure how a cascaded array would be beneficial.

    Lets say the left woofers are doing the bass and the right woofers are a traditional midbass, how would that correct the issue having 3 drovers side by side doing the same frequency per side.

    Excellent point. I really am curious about horizontal lobing on it. Has anyone done measurements on the ES35 or S35 that you're aware of? I can't seem to find any online.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,611
    Based on the design and price point, the Es35 like more like a lifestyle product then a hifi product
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,766
    edited August 2023
    Well -- for those reading this thread who care*, ASR liked the ES20 and the S30 center** quite a bit. B)

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/polk-signature-elite-es20-review-bookshelf-speaker.33834/

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/polk-s30-center-speaker-review.24728/

    ________________
    * Yeah, I realize that's identically zero of y'all ;) -- but I still thought you might find it interesting to know so.

    ** They (i.e., he -- Amir) don't appear to have tested the ES35. EDIT: The ES35 certainly looks like a bad idea, though. :#


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  • chrispyfur
    chrispyfur Posts: 170
    VR3 wrote: »
    Based on the design and price point, the Es35 like more like a lifestyle product then a hifi product

    I bought my S35 to fit a space in my TV stand. It was an improvement over no center channel at all.
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