Balanced Turntable connections

xsmi
xsmi Posts: 1,798
in 2 Channel Audio
Anyone have any experience with this? How far do you have to carry the balanced connections through your chain for it to make a difference? My preamp ddoesnt have balanced connections and my power amp is a differential design if I were using the balanced connections in the amp, which would conflict with my Legends.
2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,476
    If I have the option of using balanced cables I will but mainly because I prefer the physical design of XLR connectors over RCA and they make me feel special. In some cases a balanced cable can provide higher gain but that's entirely dependent on the equipment they're connecting rather than the cable itself.

    Generally speaking in a home environment balanced cables aren't going to produce better quality sound than unbalanced cables if they're equivalent designs. But I figure if the designer of the gear put XLR jacks on them I'm going to use them.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,578
    Could possibly eliminate ground loop hum?
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
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    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

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  • engie490
    engie490 Posts: 431
    For a while, I ran balanced phono into an Innersound Phono then to a Rowland Synergy IIi which fed my Rowland Model 8 amp. The sound was excellent, but there was no way to compare if the balanced part made a difference because the Synergy preamp doesn't have any unbalanced connections. I'm now into tubes for the preamps (Herron VTSP-3A and Fosgate Signature Phono), which both are unbalanced only. Excellent sound again, but the subtle life that tubes bring to the sound.
    Alon Petite / Infinity 1.2S / Coda Continuum / Counterpoint SA5000 / Oppo BDP-105D / Technics SP-15 w/SAEC WE-308SX & Ortofon AS-309 arms / Ikeda 9C2 & Dynavector XX2 Mk II carts
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,190
    At what point do Turntables have balanced connections? I have seen 12k player that still use unbalanced RCA connections.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,549
    I think it is not necessary. None of my tables come with stock xlr connections and I have the Avenger Reference and HW40 black by VPI
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,476
    Pro-Ject has been marketing turntables with balanced output cabling into a balanced phono preamp as being superior since last year. Claims are the separation of grounding produces benefits in background noise suppression.

    It's not a new concept though.
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  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,760
    edited April 2023
    Actually, the signal generated by a phono cartridge is a balanced signal, a voltage is generated in the two coils inside the cartridge neither end grounded (except on the older Decca London series of cartridges). This is why you can reverse the polarity on the left and right pins on the cartridge and everything works fine. The trouble is the phono input treats this balanced signal as a single ended signal and ties one of the coil's wires to the circuit ground.
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  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,144
    edited April 2023
    Phono cartridge signals (both MM and MC) are inherently 'balanced' due to the coils carrying the signal. The real limitation is in phonostage designs, since (I reckon) it is more difficult (and costly) to design a balanced INput stage.

    Phonostages with true, balanced inputs are typically much more expensive. However, there are many mid-level phonostages with balanced OUTputs.

    The big advantage to balanced connections IMO is noise/interference rejection, since the delicate phono cartridge signal is subject to RFI/EMI.

    EDIT: the grounding configuration of any particular turntable/tonearm/cartridge can also come into play here. Many times, the signal ground and earth ground are combined into one cable/connection. But in higher-end designs, the earth ground is connected to either the tonearm or the chassis, and no real signal-ground is needed. YMMV
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
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  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,798
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I think it is not necessary. None of my tables come with stock xlr connections and I have the Avenger Reference and HW40 black by VPI

    https://pro-jectusa.com/product/connect-it-phono-ds-rca-mini-xlr/
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,549
    xsmi wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I think it is not necessary. None of my tables come with stock xlr connections and I have the Avenger Reference and HW40 black by VPI

    https://pro-jectusa.com/product/connect-it-phono-ds-rca-mini-xlr/

    So that’s like a Y cable into a single xlr? The single goes to the phono?
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,798
    Yes. And then connect the phono pre to the pre with balanced cables.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,549
    A phono can handle a single xlr? I wasn’t aware
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,549
    For my 2 vpi, there’s this option instead

    I’m not sure whats to gain by adding more wire to an already sensitive phono cable connection

    https://elusivedisc.com/vpi-jmw-xlr-junction-box-with-standard-vpi-wire/
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,798
    Joey_V wrote: »
    For my 2 vpi, there’s this option instead

    I’m not sure whats to gain by adding more wire to an already sensitive phono cable connection

    https://elusivedisc.com/vpi-jmw-xlr-junction-box-with-standard-vpi-wire/

    It looks as if it replaces the rca connections on your turntbale. Your arm would be connected to the junction box instead of where it connects to the deck now. They even have it with Nordost internal wiring.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,798
    edited April 2023
    Joey_V wrote: »
    xsmi wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I think it is not necessary. None of my tables come with stock xlr connections and I have the Avenger Reference and HW40 black by VPI

    https://pro-jectusa.com/product/connect-it-phono-ds-rca-mini-xlr/

    So that’s like a Y cable into a single xlr? The single goes to the phono?

    Yes. This is the picture of one of their balanced phono pres and I've seen others with this connection as well. I always assumed they took the connection directly off the tonearm.

    7xxaee0elxbb.jpg

    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,549
    I’d have to look at my arc 10 to see if it has balanced inputs
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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