Gut check for all the recent digital filtering chatter

jdjohn

There's been a lot of discussion recently (Q1 2023) about digital filtering, etc.
Methinks that there might be a difference between digital playback from streaming sources (e.g., Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify) vs NAS (network access storage).

Just wondering which digital pathway really needs filtering, and to what extent.

mantis

Honesty I don't think any of it needs any filtering.

For digital media weather it be a CD SACD DVD AUDIO High Rez file or a streaming service, I don't see any difference with trying to buy super high end digital cables, super high end DAC's or any of this noise canceling network devices that are floating around.

I'm a Network Technician and there is no noise on the network with proper termainated Cat 6 cables and a properly powered battery backed up network. You take the same technics and not run your ethernet cat 6 cabling with power wires in the wall attic or basement feeds. You don't bend the cable so you restrict signal. You use quality network gear, managed switches, proper terminated cables and you have all the making of a excellent network to transport your media.

I don't however support wireless transmission for streaming music. I don't support Blue Tooth transmission or Airplay. These transport methods have the ability for loss. I don't care if you have a ISP router with built in WIFI or a network like I have which consists of a high end Router, Managed switches and Access points located around the house. Wireless transmissions at some point will have loss or interference from the transport of wireless data. I tune a network to it's environment. I scan each location for other wireless network channels in the 2.4 and 5g band and manage the network for best performance. This is important for streaming or let's just call it network music transfer. Don't care if it's a network drive locally or a cloud base system.

Companies like HEOS , SONOS , BLUESOUND etc, these music streaming players are all pretty damn good. Looking at it from a pure hardware perspective, we as hobbyist tend to want a better quality source to retain the best possible playback. High quality Streamers with High quality Digital cables with high quality DAC's and all the things we can do to build a pretty damn nice modern digital music playback system. I think you can buy lets say a Sonos Port, a nice pair of analog cables or a nice digital Coax cable, Cat 6 ethernet cable wired to a high quality network router or switch and you now have the ability to play basically any streaming service to it's perfection. Heos and Bluesound players I don't hear any difference directly compared within the same system using the same cables same power etc. These players and even built in DAC's are pretty damn good. You don't need to seek out higher quality ethernet cables unless your using a crap cat 6 cable. You don't need to seek out a better digital coax cable again unless your using a poorly built cable. These cables for these streaming services I just don't hear any difference at all. Then trying to use these noise filters and all these supper high end ethernet cables and expecting to hear this better pure black background etc that these companies are claiming , I call ****. Why? well being a network Technician I know how it works. I have setup countless digital music system from basic Sonos to whole house high end and very high end 2 channel systems and these kinds of things I don't hear any differences or see any need to try to keep perfecting something that has been perfected.

These are my personal and professional opinions, you are completely free to experience your digital media anyway you see fit. This is a place I don't see spending a ton of money where you can't make it any better. You can go way down the rabbit hole and find out as I did that I was wasting my money on things that didn't matter. Again my opinion and experience , your experiences may be different and that's ok.

rebelsoul

Your system might not be revieling as others. I use to do IT systems and have a degree in electronics and one in residential and commercial electrical. I have noticed with even different Ethernet cables sound different. Ethernet filter do make a difference. Either your hearing caint pick up the subtle change or your system caint.

invalid

@mantis So you think the DAC inside the bluesound sounds just as good as a high end DAC?

treitz3

Dan. I stopped reading your post after the first few sentences. Here's why.

We all know full well that you have admitted that you do not understand how filters work. That Ethernet cables don't matter and that using switches to clean up a signal is ludicrous.

Yet, here you are, still spouting your opinions as if you have first hand experience. I can tell you with complete confidence that your "excellence" is vastly different from some of the folks on this forum's "excellence". Vastly is an understatement here.

I'm not trying to start a beef with you but unless you have first hand, actual experience with these devices, you should not speak about them and compare them to lesser systems as "excellent". It does no one any favors, except for those who want to save their money and be in an unaware bliss.

The thing is, there is much better out there. This is akin to the electrical engineer that states up and down, without question that cables and PC's do NOT make a difference at all. We know that this is simply not the case.

Please don't try to "save the world of bad audio" on threads in which you have not one clue about.....and I hate to say this on a public forum but you do not know what you are talking about on this. Period.

I know, because I have first hand experience that is well documented on this forum. Starting with a low cost streamer to what I have now. So, not only did I used to be an electro-mechanical engineer, I also speak from first hand experience.

Tom

mantis

invalid wrote: »

@mantis So you think the DAC inside the bluesound sounds just as good as a high end DAC?

Good is a personal term I think here. Dac's can cost $50 to Skys the limit as we all know. I have owned DAC's from Cambridge and NAD and they sounded different to me. Which one was better? Well again I think that's a personal answer.

The DAC inside the Bluesound , HEOS and Sonos units are pretty damn good now. These companies do a pretty good job changing the digital information to analog.

As a hobbyist , we all want awesome looking and sounding gear. I don't think I can answer this question other than a personal one. I think the Day in the Bluesound units sound great. If you want a more personalized sound, sure go external and try to figure out what DAC is to your liking but the $50 dollar Binary DAC and the $10000 DAC both will decode the signal. The Internal Bluesound DAC will properly decode the signal. I just think to me it's not worth my money too keep chasing DAC quality when internal DAC's sound pretty damn good.

I have a Musical Fidelity DAC for my Sonos Connect. The Port has a better internal DAC on paper. The Musical Fidelity DAC on paper is also supposed to be of better quality. They all to me sound great.

mantis

rebelsoul wrote: »

Your system might not be revieling as others. I use to do IT systems and have a degree in electronics and one in residential and commercial electrical. I have noticed with even different Ethernet cables sound different. Ethernet filter do make a difference. Either your hearing caint pick up the subtle change or your system caint.

That's probably true, I don't own a very high end system or systems around my house. I have Focal, Definitive Technology and Polk audio, B&W speakers. I have Musical Fidelity , Integra , Denon, Sonos Sony B&K Niles , Rotel amps and receivers so no I don't own extreme high end stuff. I have a few external DAC's from Binary Musical Fidelity etc so even there I'm way under some of the stuff you guys own.

mantis

treitz3 wrote: »

Dan. I stopped reading your post after the first few sentences. Here's why.

We all know full well that you have admitted that you do not understand how filters work. That Ethernet cables don't matter and that using switches to clean up a signal is ludicrous.

Yet, here you are, still spouting your opinions as if you have first hand experience. I can tell you with complete confidence that your "excellence" is vastly different from some of the folks on this forum's "excellence". Vastly is an understatement here.

I'm not trying to start a beef with you but unless you have first hand, actual experience with these devices, you should not speak about them and compare them to lesser systems as "excellent". It does no one any favors, except for those who want to save their money and be in an unaware bliss.

The thing is, there is much better out there. This is akin to the electrical engineer that states up and down, without question that cables and PC's do NOT make a difference at all. We know that this is simply not the case.

Please don't try to "save the world of bad audio" on threads in which you have not one clue about.....and I hate to say this on a public forum but you do not know what you are talking about on this. Period.

I know, because I have first hand experience that is well documented on this forum. Starting with a low cost streamer to what I have now. So, not only did I used to be an electro-mechanical engineer, I also speak from first hand experience.

Tom

These words Ethernet cable don't matter makes no sense. Of course they matter man, they have to be properly terminated, properly built and pass spec. If they don't, they can't possible pass the signal properly. But once you achieve this goal, you can't make the signal better. If you think you can, educate me instead of talking down to me about this matter. I have been in the business over 25 years so I must not be on your level of knowledge. I must be missing something here that you know and I don't. Another thing we can talk about ethernet cables is Shielded vs unshielded. What are the benefits of Shielded vs unshielded . Again I'm looking to you to help me understand this as I must not as my experience in this field isn't up to yours so I'm gonna rely on learning from you.

My opinions are my opinions. I have no idea what you mean by first hand experince. As you should know or maybe you don't that I have been in this Audio video business for over 25 years and have install systems costing 750k. I've worked with Krell Wilson Audio Dynaudio Dunlavy Mark Levinston B&W just to name a few but I see to you compared to your level of this hobby and I don't know you also work in this business, you need to teach me because of all the training , engineers that have have learned from and all the training I have been absolutely doesn't measure up to your superior knowledge of audio video. I'm sure you can out school me in room acoustics since I only trained with John Dohl from THX. His level of acoustics must be inferior to his and since I trained under him, Hell I'm must not be even in the game.
Image and Science? Hell Why would I even bring that up. Being a Video Calibrator and owning over 10k worth of calibration gear just can't hold a candle to your superior knowledge. I wish I knew you better 25 years ago so I would have a better understanding of all things audio and video. I'm sorry I'm not on your level.

Your not trying to start beef with me yet you talk down to me like I'm new to this hobby and talk untruth fully. You should re read your post and see if you would feel like someone is starting beef with you if you where me. I don't come into this forum to argue about who is right who is wrong or who shouldn't open their mouth about audio video man. Every single person who comes into the forum who has a passion for this hobby has the right to their opinion. I feel that way about you and I'm not going to sit here and try to insult you as you did me.

Sorry man, honestly I'm willing to bet you don't know 1/8 of what I know about this entire hobby and I'm also going to be honest here, that doesn't matter to me at all. I'd be willing to have a civil conversation about your views on this topic and I would tell you in so many words to shut your mouth as you did me. You give me absolutely no respect yet I prefer not to return that favor. Your welcome to PM me and we can have a more private conversation about audio video DAC's streaming cables Networking Digital audio video I don't care what subject you would like to talk to me about. I'm totally game my friend.

Clipdat

I like turtles.

heiney9

I don't understand how someone who has never tried different Ethernet cables and switches and filters can say they don't work. I don't care what upper level audio companies you work with or how many years you've been doing something. Everything matters in this hobby for those of us who want to get that extra 3-5 % out of our rigs.

My audio hero, Nelson Pass doesn't really think higher end power cables are all that necessary, but he says go ahead and try them and see for yourself.

Dan do yourself a favor and go read the white paper at Uptone Audio. It explains exactly what you say doesn't exist. It is a very interesting read.

John Swenson is an accomplished electrical engineer. If you can refute his philosophy with actual facts, then you might have a leg to stand on.

pitdogg2

Clipdat wrote: »

I like turtles.

In soup?

invalid

An Ethernet cable that doesn't meet spec can still pass the signal, in fact fluke measured a bunch of Ethernet cables and 80% of them didn't meet spec.

Emlyn

I don't think network filtering is anything new really. Just like any other tweak there will be those who say digital switches and cables can't possibly make a difference because they can't see any measurable differences or hear any in their experience and those who say they can hear differences through personal experience.

From what I can tell the claims are that jitter is one of the major problems an audiophile switch or cable can help with. Another is electrical noise. Jitter has been claimed to be a problem area for digital audio signals for decades but primarily with optical disc transports. I have read the Swenson stuff and watched the Youtube videos from the Dutch dude from two or three years ago.

I don't see myself as someone who would go to the trouble of trying to make streaming from Qubuz or Tidal sound its very best in an audiophile system, but the technology is interesting. Strikes me as a kind of silk purse out a sow's ear challenge. I just wonder why adequate filtering isn't built into a network streamer that costs thousands of dollars.

heiney9

You can discuss, debate and opine all you want. Discussion is good. But until you've tried it, you can't really say one say one way or another. If you're one of those that is happy with retrieving 93-94% of the system and don't care about getting that extra 5-6%, there's nothing wrong with that. Rock on. But some of us want as much as we can get.

VR3

Agreed all around, until you have tried these products, I wouldn't pass judgment so quickly

nooshinjohn

The best thing I did to my digital side was my AQ Diamond USB...

rebelsoul

Just with cables , a filter and a audio switch to my ps audio perfect wave dac 2 and bridge 2:
I am at what I had with a good table and a $1000 moving coil. With qobuz m connect or roon

audioluvr

Clipdat wrote: »

I like turtles.

They can breathe out their buts you know...

nooshinjohn

rebelsoul wrote: »

Just with cables , a filter and a audio switch to my ps audio perfect wave dac 2 and bridge 2:
I am at what I had with a good table and a $1000 moving coil. With qobuz m connect or roon

My Simaudio Moon 380d DSD and the AQ Diamond have bested my TriangleART/ CA Goldfinger Statement. In all, 3k in gear and cables beat a 25k turntable…

stevep

If I swap Ethernet cables and hear a difference, I want to know why. I can be pretty sure it's not due to anything happening to the packets if I'm not dropping any to start with. If I am, is the streaming app using UDP or TCP. Where am I loosing them and did changing a switch or cable fix it?

So, what then is causing it? Is it noise from a lack of isolation, buffering issues at the receiving end, sunspots?

I have no doubts that my equipment and ears aren't of high enough quality to hear anything but the grossest differences but my IP networking experience makes me very skeptical that it's the network packets that are changing.

rebelsoul

I am running 2 ifi power x power supplys . 1 to router/modem and one to the cable box. From the router modem a dh labs reunion cat 8 Ethernet cable to the lhy audio sw-8 switch.then another dh labs reunion to a ifi Ethernet filter to my dac /streamer. Just received my dh labs power cables one for each bat mono blocks and one for the switch . The switch has linear power supply built in. And it sounds 20 percent better then just the old cat 5 cable. Each upgrade got me 3percent improvement. Roughly

machone

Hey Guys,

Here is a link to someone who knows digital. Might be an interesting read.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/7-myths-of-digital-audio-dispelled/

mantis

stevep wrote: »

If I swap Ethernet cables and hear a difference, I want to know why. I can be pretty sure it's not due to anything happening to the packets if I'm not dropping any to start with. If I am, is the streaming app using UDP or TCP. Where am I loosing them and did changing a switch or cable fix it?

So, what then is causing it? Is it noise from a lack of isolation, buffering issues at the receiving end, sunspots?

I have no doubts that my equipment and ears aren't of high enough quality to hear anything but the grossest differences but my IP networking experience makes me very skeptical that it's the network packets that are changing.

I setup networks just about every single day in my audio video field. I have an extremely hard time with this as well if you read above. There is this noise Isolater for I think it's around $90 which isn't a lot of money and I might just buy it and see what all this fuss is all about. People in here are claiming that it's doing all these things like what you would read analog cables do. I don't buy it with my decades of experience with 1 networks and 2 digital cables. Unless your network has all this noise on it due to dirty power , no battery backup etc, then maybe this kind of device could filter out noise BUT I still don't see how this can help any.

I feel the same way about ethernet cables. I have generic models from Monoprice , I have Liberity, Belden , Wirepath Cat 6 cables I have built and tested to spec . I have Audioquest bulk cat 6 which I have also terminated and tested myself as well as higher end Audioquest Cinnamon Cat 7 Shielded cables.

My Network for all my streaming devices which I have a-lot of in my home are all hard wired. I don't believe in trying to stream music over wifi due to the fact that loss is going to happen due to interference.

I have a Araknis AN110 Router which is connected to my Verizon ONT directly. I do not have cable boxes so I don't need working MOCHA in my home. I stream TV service. As my Main Switch I have a Araknis AN310-16 port POE managed switch which is using Spamming Tree protocol 4096 and is the route bridge. This manages my entire network. Power here is a Wattbox Battery Backup and a Wattbox network rebooter running off OVRC software.

From there in my Family Room system, I have a Araknis AN110-16 port switch unmanaged as I didn't see any need to add another managed switch for this location. I have a Sono Port , Apple TV 4K , Xbox 1 X , PS4 , Total Control MX10 Processor , Sony 65 inch Z9D TV , Integra DRX4 , Sony 700 UHD 4k Blu ray player, all hard wired to it on a managed port off the AN310 managed main Route bridge switch. Power here is a APC H15.

I have a Mid Atlantic 37U Rack in my basement with another Managed Switch. I use a AN210- 8 port POE switch running at 8192 2nd tier running a full Sonos system. I have 7 Sonos Amps connected hard wired there. Power there is a APC H10.

In. my Master Bedroom system I have another Switch. I have a Araknis AN110- 8 port unmanaged switch. This is connected to the Route Bridge switch port. In this system I have connected a Sony OLED TV , Total Control Room Processor , Apple TV 4K and a Sony UHD 700 4k Player.

All my feeds are Audioquest cat 6 cable all terminated and tested by me. I have used the prebuilt and tested against my Audioquest bulk cable and I can't hear or see any differences on any of my system. Now granted ,my total network is on dedicated circuits so chance of getting any noise is super slim to none so making these. kinds of changes to my system don't yield any benefits as I have the entire system isolated away from noise. The Verizon ONT is also plugged into Battery back up and on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. All circuits are 15 amps except my Family Room system which is dedicated 20 amps.

These are the kinds of things and spec I do to all my systems not just in my home but my clients home to prevent noise and external issues. Network especially when they get as big as mine or bigger, become extremely hard to trouble shoot when thins go wrong and as you know being a IT guy, things always go wrong at some point.

Oh I didn't mention as for this discussion really doesn't matter but I use Araknis AP's in the AN700 I have 2 of them. They support out wifi needs with Ring Door bell and cameras around the house as well as Phones and laptops tablets etc .

stevep

machone wrote: »

Hey Guys,

Here is a link to someone who knows digital. Might be an interesting read.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/7-myths-of-digital-audio-dispelled/

He doesn't say much pertaining to the Ethernet issue in Myth #7 but what he does say is critically important, it as a transport is asynchronous and disjoint to the audio data stream clocking and jitter.

treitz3

jdjohn wrote: »

There's been a lot of discussion recently (Q1 2023) about digital filtering, etc.
Methinks that there might be a difference between digital playback from streaming sources (e.g., Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify) vs NAS (network access storage).

Just wondering which digital pathway really needs filtering, and to what extent.

To move beyond the....well, whatever you want to call it...

You have touched on this twice now that I know of an no one has ever answered or addressed your question. Let's get back to the original topic here...

Isn't NAS a direct connection to the NAP or is it streamed as well via Wi-Fi?

Tom

jdjohn

There are probably different configurations possible. Specifically, I'm wondering about configurations where a dedicated PC has music stored on it, is connected via ethernet to a LAN switch, which is then connected via ethernet to a player, then to a DAC, etc. There is no router involved in this scenario (i.e., the PC is not connected to a router...only a switch).

Compare that to a pure streaming configuration that utilizes a subscription service (Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify), where the router is connected via ethernet to (possibly a switch, and then) a player.

In the former scenario, there's no router to potentially muck-up the ethernet line, so is a network filter needed?

treitz3

If there is anything that is hardwired or connected upstream from the player, then I would imagine (logically) that one could be utilized. Is it needed? Not to make music, no. To help optimize things? Sure. Anything that is connected to the path, introduces anything that is upstream from that....along with all of the noise from each thing connected. Even from the PS's that each of those devices are powered by.

The only possible scenario where it wouldn't matter would be if you were to hard wire straight from a computer to the player. But even then, it may filter some of the jitter/noise that is inherent from a computer....and its PS, unless optimized.

I haven't ran any type of configuration that you described here in my rig, so others would have to chime in on their thoughts/experience.

Tom

rebelsoul

A pc is one of the noisiest environments.

Clipdat

Kids, pets, and spouses also raise the noise floor so I recommend getting rid of those things as well.

mhardy6647

Clipdat wrote: »

Kids, pets, and spouses also raise the noise floor so I recommend getting rid of those things as well.

Don't they make, like filters or something? Paul McGowan must have a video on this, no?

jbreezy5

rebelsoul wrote: »

A pc is one of the noisiest environments.

Hence why so many audio companies had to implement galvanic isolation into USB configurations on DACs; since the majority of PCs don’t offer the “stereo”-typical RCA outs, or sometimes, even toslink, which is inherently galvanically-isolated, but considered inadequate by some audiophiles.

Oh boy, just opened another can of worms. 😉