Monitor 11T , can anyone suggest a horn tweeter that would be compatible

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Hi all, I recently got myself a pair of 11t speakers. I like the sound everall, very pleased. However, they leave me missing the sound from the horn tweeters of my Zenith Allegros. I have read about the upgrade that most do for tweeter replacement. Its not what I want.
I am wondering if anyone here would be able to suggest a good horn tweeter, possibly one that is compatible with these speakers factory setup. Has anyone reading this done such a thing to the Rt11s? Thank you for any pointers. James

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,799
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    You've got to be joking.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • jamnjc3
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    Not even a little. My ears love horns.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,799
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    Then buy speakers designed and built with horns...geesh!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,698
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    A set of Polklipsch would be a wonderful amalgam of auditory bliss.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
    edited February 2023
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    So -- @jamnjc3, as has been succinctly but emphatically pointed out, no.
    Nope. You shouldn't do it, and there exists no horn (compression) tweeter that will be an improvement to what you have.

    That said, it's your money and they're your loudspeakers, so you may do with them as you wish.
    Case in point: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/195974/documenting-my-sda-1c-upgrades-from-start-to-finish/p1
    :#

    IF you really, truly want to play with horn sizzle with your 11t speakers, I'd say your guiding principle should be do no harm, which (from my perspective) would mean you could try a "supertweeter" horn. This would be a driver crossed over to your Polks at a very high frequency (10 kHz, or even more), external to the speakers.

    You'll need a horn loaded compression tweeter that has very extended high frequency response. They're rare but not unknown. You'll also need an "L-pad" (variable, at least to start the experiment) because any "true" horn tweeter (as opposed to a dome tweeter set into a "waveguide", as is currently fashionable) is MUCH more sensitive (louder!) than your Polks. Most important, you'll need a very good quality crossover (XO) capacitor. If I were trying this (not that I would) I'd use a 1 uF capacitor, which will give a nominal crossover frequency of 20,000 Hz.

    *Here's a first-order crossover calculator for first order. You only care about the "high pass" value.
    https://www.v-cap.com/speaker-crossover-calculator.php#firstOrderCalculator

    *Here's a reasonable choice for a capacitor (chosen more or less randomly).
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/claritycap-csa-capacitor-630vdc/claritycap-1.0-mfd-csa-copperconnect-poly-cap-630v/

    *Here's a good, extended, and reasonably priced tweeter to use:
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bullet-tweeters/fostex-ft17h-horn-super-tweeter/

    *Here's an 8 ohm L-pad that will work.
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/l-pads-attenuators/yung-lp15-3/4-15w-8-ohm-l-pad/


    You'll need some wire to hook it all together, like this:

    31422816151_1ccbff9a60_b.jpg

    You can buy a bag of clip leads for a couple of bucks to test this out.

    Hookup to the speaker is simple. You simply connect the two wires shown above (the "+" and "-" in the diagram) in "parallel" to the speaker. A pair of banana plugs is handy for this -- just "piggyback" to the existing connection to each speaker. The tweeter will barely change the load to the amplifier, and only pass signals at extremely high audio frequency, and not have any effect on the operation of the speaker's built-in crossover.

    This is what you'll end up with (although this is a much, much, much more expensive supertweeter, and a vintage Sprague Atom capacitor). The white box is just the box that the L-pad came in!

    14104842739_2b3c90bcf0_b.jpg

    You'll use the L-pad to adjust the tweeter output so that it just adds a little bit of "air" or "sparkle" to the sound.

    Now, it can be argued (and rightly so) that the 11t wouldn't need a supertweeter. That is almost certainly true. But if you really, really want to evaluate that thesis empirically, you can do so for a relatively nominal investment and without doing any irreversible damage (modifications) to the loudspeakers themselves. You can always sell the tweeters and XO components on eBAY and recoup your much of your investment if you decide the experiment was a failure.

    So, to summarize. No, we cannot suggest a compatible horn tweeter and it's a silly idea. But you can certainly give it a go if you want to. Heck, they laughed at Tesla (and for good reason!). B)
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Then buy speakers designed and built with horns...geesh!

    This is the best advice.
    Here, these'll work for you:

    https://www.klipsch.com/products/heresy-iv-floorstanding-speaker

    o6oqky7xb6bz.png
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,906
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    At this point I believe we are all being trolled around here just to see what we might say.

    Multiple accounts??
  • plastic_avatar
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    That big post up there (L-pad explanation and everything) is great.

    Timely, too. These came up on FB recently:

    z55a7p82c3fk.png
    Other than something like an added Fostex, I haven't known anyone who tried integrating anything else.

    Sadly, matching ye olde Allegro might be a tough row to hoe.

    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/super-tweeters/
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
  • jamnjc3
    Options
    Thank you all! Thanks especially Mhardy.
    Nobodys being Trolled. As I said I was serious. Id also say alot of you know much more about home audio speakers than me. I got these 11s because I always heard how great they are. And they are. Its simply put that I like how the Allegro tweeters sound over the ones in these rt11s. I dont understand why thats hard to understand, unless something is wrong with these tweeters, and I dont think so. My ears enjoy the horns more
    I wouldnt do anything to ruin the 11s. If I did experiment it would be in such a way that it could be reversed in the future.
    That said, after seeing these responses, I think I will take yalls advise , sell these and buy a set of those Heresy IV speakers. I am not good enuff electronicly speaking to tackle what Mhardy suggests. Though, if I had the skills I probably would try it, just to try it.
    Thanks for the comments, though not what I wanted to hear for the most part, id say your all probably right for me to just get other speakers made with horns. So thanks again yall.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
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    Not Ravens, but a fairly sensitive, non-horn supertweeter (JVC/Radio Shack planar tweeter), same notion as above. I used these with Altec Valencias.

    52036298318_934b071b20_b.jpg

    52036507379_f1ec9c9534_b.jpg


  • plastic_avatar
    Options
    @mhardy6647 Did you do the pad and mount work on those?
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
    edited February 2023
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    I built them from dump-find drivers (which is why they're a little scuffed up), yes.
    I used a couple of plastic Hammond boxes.
    ... and, yes, wired 'em with CAT5 :blush:
  • plastic_avatar
    Options
    Nice.

    Did you have to play with positioning and angle to get them to mesh with the Altecs?

    Not to hijack, but I thought about trying to add a ribbon to the top of my homebrews (Eton hexacone 8 and a 1" fabric dome). The highs are a little... dome'ish.

    I already bookmarked this because of your response up there^ =)
    The Thrifty Setups in Mah House Big thrifty stereo in the basement w/ my custom SDA-1C (built with help from kind forum members) * Beautiful 1966 MCM GE console upgraded w/ Bluetooth, Dual turntable, and Paradigm speakers in family room * Swanky 1980 Realistic system and great TEAC eq with dancing colored lights in the living room * Ye Olde college stereo in the garage
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
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    It's your thread ;)
    but I'll PM you with some info.

  • jamnjc3
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    Toolfan,,, how do they sound with your setup?
  • jamnjc3
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,698
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    Those are the extremely rare 11TRL's
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,099
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    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    mbt4fshef94c.jpeg
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    x5lhujyethek.png

    Me so Hohney…
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,597
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    Polklipsch? More like Polkenstein. 😳
    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
  • jamnjc3
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    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    57lxv1uixcbr.jpeg


    Jesus, I just realized its photoshopped...damn it, got me all Horny and stuff! Hahaha
  • jamnjc3
    Options
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    So -- @jamnjc3, as has been succinctly but emphatically pointed out, no.
    Nope. You shouldn't do it, and there exists no horn (compression) tweeter that will be an improvement to what you have.

    That said, it's your money and they're your loudspeakers, so you may do with them as you wish.
    Case in point: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/195974/documenting-my-sda-1c-upgrades-from-start-to-finish/p1
    :#

    IF you really, truly want to play with horn sizzle with your 11t speakers, I'd say your guiding principle should be do no harm, which (from my perspective) would mean you could try a "supertweeter" horn. This would be a driver crossed over to your Polks at a very high frequency (10 kHz, or even more), external to the speakers.

    You'll need a horn loaded compression tweeter that has very extended high frequency response. They're rare but not unknown. You'll also need an "L-pad" (variable, at least to start the experiment) because any "true" horn tweeter (as opposed to a dome tweeter set into a "waveguide", as is currently fashionable) is MUCH more sensitive (louder!) than your Polks. Most important, you'll need a very good quality crossover (XO) capacitor. If I were trying this (not that I would) I'd use a 1 uF capacitor, which will give a nominal crossover frequency of 20,000 Hz.

    *Here's a first-order crossover calculator for first order. You only care about the "high pass" value.
    https://www.v-cap.com/speaker-crossover-calculator.php#firstOrderCalculator

    *Here's a reasonable choice for a capacitor (chosen more or less randomly).
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/claritycap-csa-capacitor-630vdc/claritycap-1.0-mfd-csa-copperconnect-poly-cap-630v/

    *Here's a good, extended, and reasonably priced tweeter to use:
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bullet-tweeters/fostex-ft17h-horn-super-tweeter/

    *Here's an 8 ohm L-pad that will work.
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/l-pads-attenuators/yung-lp15-3/4-15w-8-ohm-l-pad/


    You'll need some wire to hook it all together, like this:

    31422816151_1ccbff9a60_b.jpg

    You can buy a bag of clip leads for a couple of bucks to test this out.

    Hookup to the speaker is simple. You simply connect the two wires shown above (the "+" and "-" in the diagram) in "parallel" to the speaker. A pair of banana plugs is handy for this -- just "piggyback" to the existing connection to each speaker. The tweeter will barely change the load to the amplifier, and only pass signals at extremely high audio frequency, and not have any effect on the operation of the speaker's built-in crossover.

    This is what you'll end up with (although this is a much, much, much more expensive supertweeter, and a vintage Sprague Atom capacitor). The white box is just the box that the L-pad came in!

    14104842739_2b3c90bcf0_b.jpg

    You'll use the L-pad to adjust the tweeter output so that it just adds a little bit of "air" or "sparkle" to the sound.

    Now, it can be argued (and rightly so) that the 11t wouldn't need a supertweeter. That is almost certainly true. But if you really, really want to evaluate that thesis empirically, you can do so for a relatively nominal investment and without doing any irreversible damage (modifications) to the loudspeakers themselves. You can always sell the tweeters and XO components on eBAY and recoup your much of your investment if you decide the experiment was a failure.

    So, to summarize. No, we cannot suggest a compatible horn tweeter and it's a silly idea. But you can certainly give it a go if you want to. Heck, they laughed at Tesla (and for good reason!). B)

    Please explain why its a silly idea. I dont understand why everyone seems to think its a crazy idea. Id just like to know why.
    Why do my old Allegro horn tweeters produce a sweeter sound than the tweeters in the 11s?
    Or is it just my ears? Thank you.
  • jamnjc3
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    I had read about people swapping the tweeter for an RD-0198 tweeter. So I cant be the only one not impressed by the tweeter.
    Also, the RD-0198 is a 8ohm speaker.
    So is the Fostex that was suggested. The 11 speakers are listed as 6ohm speakers. Is 6 ohm just the mids and woofers? Thanks again.
  • jamnjc3
    Options
    Has anyone heard a RD-0198 tweeter and also heard that FT7H Fostex horn? Just curious what your ears may have thought of the comparison.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,099
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    Your crossovers are in need of attention due to age, which diminishes the performance of the speaker, and the original tweets should be replaced as well. Polk understood this and made the RD0 series tweeters to improve the sound over the SL2000/3000 tweets.

    The reason you are being advised to not use horns is that there is nothing about a Polk speaker that was ever intended or designed to be used with that type of tweeter. Literally everything about the speaker would need to be completely changed, including the MW drivers, the cabinet, and crossover design in order to do what you are trying to accomplish.

    If the horn sound is what you are chasing, go in that direction with a pair of speakers designed to do them justice instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,799
    edited February 2023
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    jamnjc3 wrote: »
    I had read about people swapping the tweeter for an RD-0198 tweeter. So I cant be the only one not impressed by the tweeter.
    Also, the RD-0198 is a 8ohm speaker.
    So is the Fostex that was suggested. The 11 speakers are listed as 6ohm speakers. Is 6 ohm just the mids and woofers? Thanks again.

    The 11T uses the SL2000 tweeter with its 5dB spike @ 13kHz. The proper replacement is the RD0194-1, not the RD0198-1.

    Since you like horns that SL2000 should be right up your ear bleeding alley.

    FYI, there's more to consider when changing a tweeter than the ohms rating.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • jamnjc3
    Options
    Thanks Nushinjohn.
  • jamnjc3
    Options
    jamnjc3 wrote: »
    Thanks Nushinjohn.


    I did read about changing the crossovers and the rd tweets, also read alot of comments that people thought it made a pretty big difference. Its fairly inexpensive and easy too. I still dont think it will sound like the horns , correct, or am I wrong? Im asking, because I really dont know. Thanks