Lets talk about power and reference levels
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Nice rig. What are the things on top of the amps, and it that a TV in the back?
Thanks; they're glass faces from Mcintosh car amps with the original handles from the 1201 amps. They light up and I made them as a way to hide the ugly looking MIT and Furutech wiring going to the amps. No it's not a tv in the back. It's a throw blanket covering some butt ugly room treatments. The pic is one I took of a sunset while on a cruise boat in Tampa Bay a couple years ago. I found someone on the bay that can make a throw blanket from any pic that you send them. I actually had a clearer pic of the sunset but it didn't have the shot of old glory in the upper right this one does so this shot got the nod. -
105 watts in a AVR is what it comes out to be. I don't find anything wrong with that. That's the power output that's that power output.
105 watts seems to be a good amount of power, at least in my room and in many rooms I have setup 105 watts AVR's in.
With very few exceptions, AVRs run all their amplifier channels off of a single power supply. As such, you might get the advertised "105 watts" driving 2 of the 5(7?) channels. However, once you start driving 5 or 7 of the channels, it's going to take a toll on the power supply.
To this day, other than different speakers, nothing has made a more substantial difference in the sound of my system(s) than moving away from relying on an AVR for amplification, and moving to separate amplifiers."Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow
“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
105 watts in a AVR is what it comes out to be. I don't find anything wrong with that. That's the power output that's that power output.
105 watts seems to be a good amount of power, at least in my room and in many rooms I have setup 105 watts AVR's in.
With very few exceptions, AVRs run all their amplifier channels off of a single power supply. As such, you might get the advertised "105 watts" driving 2 of the 5(7?) channels. However, once you start driving 5 or 7 of the channels, it's going to take a toll on the power supply.
To this day, other than different speakers, nothing has made a more substantial difference in the sound of my system(s) than moving away from relying on an AVR for amplification, and moving to separate amplifiers.
That goes for even low volume SPL's. I could maybe see using an AVR if they used a power supply like a vintage krell amp, but their power supply is usually smaller than a decent 100 watt amp to drive multiple channels. -
It's too bad the audio mags do not do all channel power testing on receivers anymore. The whole reason I bought my Denon 3805 back in the day was because during all channel testing it still would put out 95wpc x 5, it was rated at 125wpc. Many back in the day and most today will drastically drop in their rated power with more that two channels, some as low as 40-50 wpc with a higher amount of distortion.
I remember when I bought my Yamaha RX-v992 and it was only rated at 85wpc x 5, the salesperson mentioned that it was a true rating for the 5 channels and the 2ch performance was much more than the 85 watts.
They were correct and the only reason for the Denon purchase was to get better codacs (DTS) and room correction. -
It's too bad the audio mags do not do all channel power testing on receivers anymore. The whole reason I bought my Denon 3805 back in the day was because during all channel testing it still would put out 95wpc x 5, it was rated at 125wpc. Many back in the day and most today will drastically drop in their rated power with more that two channels, some as low as 40-50 wpc with a higher amount of distortion.
I remember when I bought my Yamaha RX-v992 and it was only rated at 85wpc x 5, the salesperson mentioned that it was a true rating for the 5 channels and the 2ch performance was much more than the 85 watts.
They were correct and the only reason for the Denon purchase was to get better codacs (DTS) and room correction.
have they stooped this?
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-benchLiving Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
It's too bad the audio mags do not do all channel power testing on receivers anymore. The whole reason I bought my Denon 3805 back in the day was because during all channel testing it still would put out 95wpc x 5, it was rated at 125wpc. Many back in the day and most today will drastically drop in their rated power with more that two channels, some as low as 40-50 wpc with a higher amount of distortion.
I remember when I bought my Yamaha RX-v992 and it was only rated at 85wpc x 5, the salesperson mentioned that it was a true rating for the 5 channels and the 2ch performance was much more than the 85 watts.
They were correct and the only reason for the Denon purchase was to get better codacs (DTS) and room correction.
have they stooped this?
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench
I do not remember seeing that in the mag itself, I'm going to check, I'll report back.
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Just about all AVR's are rated at 2 channels driven and lost about 20-30% of thier power when running multiple channels. BUT that doesn't mean a 105-130 or even 150 was rated AVR can't run a small medium or large Room. Most movies don't require full bandwidth full channels all driven at the same time at reference levels just about never. So This is why AVR's work very well in most rooms in most systems no issues. As long as you spec the correct amount of power, you're completely fine. Most people never listen at reference level anyway, it's usually to loud for most people.105 watts in a AVR is what it comes out to be. I don't find anything wrong with that. That's the power output that's that power output.
105 watts seems to be a good amount of power, at least in my room and in many rooms I have setup 105 watts AVR's in.
With very few exceptions, AVRs run all their amplifier channels off of a single power supply. As such, you might get the advertised "105 watts" driving 2 of the 5(7?) channels. However, once you start driving 5 or 7 of the channels, it's going to take a toll on the power supply.
To this day, other than different speakers, nothing has made a more substantial difference in the sound of my system(s) than moving away from relying on an AVR for amplification, and moving to separate amplifiers.
I don't listen at reference levels. I'd like to keep my hearing for the rest of my life.
I do however agree with you about adding power amps, in many rooms with many speakers for many people can benefit from more power.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I'm using a Denon AVR until my krell amp gets back from krell, I can tell you that the AVR is not even close in sound quality even at low volumes. My marantz sr7007 doesn't even come close either.
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It's too bad the audio mags do not do all channel power testing on receivers anymore. The whole reason I bought my Denon 3805 back in the day was because during all channel testing it still would put out 95wpc x 5, it was rated at 125wpc. Many back in the day and most today will drastically drop in their rated power with more that two channels, some as low as 40-50 wpc with a higher amount of distortion.
I remember when I bought my Yamaha RX-v992 and it was only rated at 85wpc x 5, the salesperson mentioned that it was a true rating for the 5 channels and the 2ch performance was much more than the 85 watts.
They were correct and the only reason for the Denon purchase was to get better codacs (DTS) and room correction.
have they stooped this?
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench
Nope the box is all you get in the magazine. Those specs are for the pioneer elite vsx-lx505. No 5,7 or 9 ch specs at all. Those boxes are what I've been seeing the last few years, just 2ch specs and all the connectivity. Not even the article mentions anything for multiple channels driven.
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Yep @pitdogg2 I just looked at all the recent reviews...Page 1, page 2, specs, and that's it...I guess maybe they figure with 9-15 channel ARVs they can't do measurements anymore?
Even with my Denon that measures 95 WPC 5 channels driven, in a pretty small room a little Audiosource amp 200 is better for the mains or center than the AVR. especially when I had it bridged to the center, the center sounded so clear...I blew out one of the LR channels and had to move it there. But power/amperage equals clarity, nuance, taut bass, so many things even at lower volumes.Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
Maybe they do not want to embarrass their paying advertisers with how little power is left
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On my aventage 3070, I have had the front porch, back porch and the home theater going pretty loud for hours and hours with no hiccups, knock on wood!
Very happy with the unit and the price I paid (free) 😁😁😁😁
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
On my aventage 3070, I have had the front porch, back porch and the home theater going pretty loud for hours and hours with no hiccups, knock on wood!
Very happy with the unit and the price I paid (free) 😁😁😁😁
I'm still kicking myself for not doing the same thing on the adorama deal that you did (I thought about it hard at the time), but I was SO busy at that point in my life that it just wasn't worth it...
I also have Yamaha RX-A820 sitting outside in a plastic cabinet 24/7. Runs two pairs of speakers and a patio TV via ARC. Bought it used for cheap, and it has been out there for around 2 years and I haven't had any issues...Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
Yamaha receivers are pretty powerful , even by receiver standards imo. All the ones i have owned didn’t have that typical receiver sound. Sounded more like a good separate amp
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I kinda like Yamaha stuff.
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Sittin on the porch, corncob pipe and whiskey in hand….puff…pufff
You younguns ain’t memberin when they made real amps and published real specs.
Then them uppity marketing folk got involved and dummied it all down to jiberish…
Don get me wrong - there’s good stuff out there.
Back in the day…
50 lbs of kick @ss
Type Pre-main amplifier
Rated output Music Power (IHF) : 260W (4 Ω, 1 kHz)
Effective output (single-channel operation) : 85W/85W (8 Ω, 1 kHz)
Effective output (both channel operation) : 80W + 80W (8 Ω, 1 kHz)
Continuous effective output (both channel operation, rated distortion factor 8 Ω, 20 Hz to 20 kHz) : 75W + 75W
Total harmonic distortion factor (rated output) Not more than 0.1%
Cross modulation distortion factor 0.1% or Less (Rated Output, 70 Hz : 7 kHz = 4 : 1, SMPTE)
Power Band With (IHF) 5 Hz to 40 kHz
Frequency characteristic 3 Hz ~ 80 kHz, + 0 -1dB (Main Amplifier, 1W Output)
Damping factor 50 (8 Ω)
Aaron
Enabler Extraordinaire -
I dunno, that katakana is gibberish to me -- which, I grant you, isn't Sansui's fault!
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Sittin on the porch, corncob pipe and whiskey in hand….puff…pufff
You younguns ain’t memberin when they made real amps and published real specs.
Then them uppity marketing folk got involved and dummied it all down to jiberish…
Don get me wrong - there’s good stuff out there.
Back in the day…
50 lbs of kick @ss
Type Pre-main amplifier
Rated output Music Power (IHF) : 260W (4 Ω, 1 kHz)
Effective output (single-channel operation) : 85W/85W (8 Ω, 1 kHz)
Effective output (both channel operation) : 80W + 80W (8 Ω, 1 kHz)
Continuous effective output (both channel operation, rated distortion factor 8 Ω, 20 Hz to 20 kHz) : 75W + 75W
Total harmonic distortion factor (rated output) Not more than 0.1%
Cross modulation distortion factor 0.1% or Less (Rated Output, 70 Hz : 7 kHz = 4 : 1, SMPTE)
Power Band With (IHF) 5 Hz to 40 kHz
Frequency characteristic 3 Hz ~ 80 kHz, + 0 -1dB (Main Amplifier, 1W Output)
Damping factor 50 (8 Ω)
What about TIM distortion and slew rate? -
source: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/harman-kardon/700-series.shtml
I happen to have an hk770. It is kind of a cool piece.
Not that this has anything to do with the thread topic, though
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What about TIM distortion and slew rate?
I don't think this amp had op-amps. Can't measure TIM or slew rates without op-amps.
Aaron
Enabler Extraordinaire -
I don't think Otala had described TIM yet when that Sansui was a current model
Looks like it was (ca.) 1976.
https://hifisonix.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-Theory-of-TIM-Matti-Otala.pdf
Looks like the Sansui AU-9500 shown above is from 1972, per
https://audio-heritage.jp/SANSUI/amp/au-9500.html
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/au-9500.shtml sez 1974-75.
I don't remember exactly, any more.
but...
Hard to measure (or at least to report) stuff that you don't know about...
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I had 2 Sui 9500's back in the day. I liked their look, build quality and their sound at very low levels. But the volume control was not linear and anything over 1/4 volume distortion was audible and unpleasant to listen to. Perhaps if I had my khorns when either of them were here one of them just might've made the grade.
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musta been that TIM...
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mhardy6647 wrote: »musta been that TIM...
Yep, either that or something else -
mhardy6647 wrote: »musta been that TIM...
Tim is a busy man...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTbrIo1p-So
