Canary c800 mk2 two piece pre any good and is it better then a recapped carver c-19?

Reviews? Is it a step up , two steps?
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,358
    My gut says it's a two step up move. I like the Carver and I have the C16. The problem with them is the volume pot is junk. Every 4-6 yrs you start to have staticky or it starts losing db's. The last time my C16 was at Rolands shop he told me my volume pot was down by 2db. The carbon wiper was toast. Actually I didn't need his expertise to tell me how bad it was.
    I had been experiencing the off and on stactic and needing to turn the pre up higher to get the volume I had at 9o'clock that I now have at 12 o'clock.
    Eventually what I experience is one channel will start dropping out to about half volume to the other.
    It now sits in its box waiting for a rountuit for service, I actually may never spend the $400-$500 whatever today's cost will be. It cost $365+ shipping to and from Washington State.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    If you read my review of the Canary, this will shed the most light you will probably ever read online.

    End result is that their isn't really any comparison between the C-19 and the Canary. The two are on completely different playing levels.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    Pulled the trigger on the canary tube c-800mk2
    Got a good deal on it for $2100.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    Congratulations!!! That isn't a good deal, you stole that thing! I would advise researching into tubes. Especially a really good rectifier tube for her.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    edited January 2023
    It uses a GZ34 (5AR4) rectifier. The best is old stock Mullard f31 or f32 code. They aren't cheap. Metal based Mullard GZ34's are in the stratosphere. There are several iterations over the years of production. I had a piece of gear that used a GZ34 so in the Polk archives there's a pretty in depth discussion on a few of the iterations. Even the early 70's versions are very solid.

    Smooth edge plates, 5 notch edge plates, 7 notch edge plates, copper edge plates, double O getter fat base, single O getter, etc.

    I've read that the old stock Mullard GZ34 outlives most the gear it was in. This would be a once and done purchase. They are extremely robust when run within spec.

    Here are a few of the different versions. The last one for $109 isn't a bad price. That would be for the 70's version I was talking about.

    http://natubes.com/index.php?page=product&do=browse&catid=108&parentid=61

    I still have (2) 1960 somethings in my stash, probably won't ever sell them just in case. Prices skyrocketed even before the pandemic/inflation.

    I also am pretty well schooled on 6SL7's as I have another piece of gear that uses those. I've tried most of them. Again, big discussion in the archives. Old production is better than new production and unlike the 6SN7, they are more reasonably priced.

    I'd suggest you look for Tung Sol - CTL-6SU7GTY brown base, black glass from the late 40's early 50. They are pretty indistructable and sound fantastic (military tube). Pricier, but shouldn't be too bad.

    The 6SL7 (ECC32) comes in a tall bottle of short bottle, be sure and check for clearance for the tall bottles.

    Sylvania makes a great old stock 6SL7 as well. The short bottle Jan CHS 6SL7WGT by Sylvainia is also a superb tube. Chrome getter material covers the top of the tube. Look for the black plates with the square or rectangle getter. These would be from the early-mid 50's for dates.

    jaiioc6wvw23.png


    RCA (Red Bank) w/red base 5691 are super rugged and have a very nice tone. Pricier though.

    That just scratches the surface. I'll try and find those older threads or feel free to ask questions. I may post more as I remember since it's been awhile since I've talked about 6SL7's in depth.

    H9
    Post edited by heiney9 on
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    Also, be aware tubes have huge influence in the power supply. This is not an area to skimp on. Many people think since the tubes aren't directly in the signal path, that it won't matter. The "matter" is huge. Every piece of gear I own that is tube rectified, that tube influences the sound and it's not subtle.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    edited January 2023
    The really good 6V6 is the RCA gray glass. I've used those in a piece of gear and as far as American 6V6's that and Sylvania & Tung Sol are the best.

    6V6's were/are used in guitar amps so the demand is high for old stock tubes.

    Used 6V6's are fairly plentiful. NOS 6V6's get pricey fast since there is demand for them today.

    xo19qaleftyu.png

    Viva tubes is a good source, and fair prices for old stock stuff.

    Again, the old stock tubes are very rugged and will last a long time, so the 6SL7 and 6V6 and GZ34 in the power section will most likely be a "buy it one time", install, and not worry about it.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    Here's the tubes
    Canary Audio USA Preamplifier in excellent condition with minimal use during my time of ownership.
    Includes Power supply, Four Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tubes, One JJ Electronics GZ 34 tube, Two Electro-Harmonix 6V6EH tubes, One Sovtek 6SL7 tube, Remote, Power cable
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    I got carried away in tubes...............

    Forgot to say Congrats! That's one helluva nice piece of gear. Like Tom says, not even in the same league as the Carver.

    Enjoy and don't skimp on the tubes.....

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    rebelsoul wrote: »
    Here's the tubes
    Canary Audio USA Preamplifier in excellent condition with minimal use during my time of ownership.
    Includes Power supply, Four Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tubes, One JJ Electronics GZ 34 tube, Two Electro-Harmonix 6V6EH tubes, One Sovtek 6SL7 tube, Remote, Power cable

    Those are current Russian or Chinese made tubes.

    Not sure of your budget, but it's worth getting some old stock tubes like I mentioned. Perhaps listen as is for awhile and get some better tubes, you won't regret it.

    Enjoy, that's a really nice piece of gear. What are you running it with?

    H9

    P.s. Don't forget a nice power cord upgrade as well.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    edited January 2023
    Speakers--- Reimer tenton gs towers upgraded crossovers upgraded woofers by Mr Reimer.
    Amp --- ps audio 200cx every cap and resistor upgraded and a bunch of other electronics upgraded. New power caps higher capacitance
    Dac -- ps audio perfect wave dac bridge 2
    Turntable---yamaha px-3 complete rebuild
    Cart - Yamaha mc -5 with sapphire cantilever and fine line contact. $400 upgrade .
    Pre ---carver c-19 rebuilt by roland
    Mid grade audioquest interconnects
    Custom silver and copper cryoed speaker wires
    Ps Audio power cords
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,832
    you might find that the preamp outclasses the amp, just a thought.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    This pre-amp will most likely be the piece that starts you down the rabbit hole. Nice thing about the rabbit hole is you can go at your own pace.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    FWIW, here is my review of this pre...

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2575287/#Comment_2575287

    I have done many things since then, so it is a bit outdated but should give you an indication of what you can look forward to.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,955
    I agree with Heiney, upgrade those current production tubes.
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    Thanks , I will change tubes in April a birthday gift to me.
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    Now to find a decent phono preamp.
  • engie490
    engie490 Posts: 417
    The 200CX was a beast. If he's upgraded the parts, it probably sounds pretty darn good.

    Plus, it has a high input impedance which is a good thing with a tube pre.

    I think the OP is being smart by spending some time with the stock tubes before looking at altering the sound with $$$ tubes.
    Alon Lotus Elite / March Audio P451s / SST Thoebe II / Oppo BDP-105D / Technics SP-15 w/SAEC WE-308SX & Ortofon AS-309 arms / Ikeda 9C2 & Accuphase AC-1 carts
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    engie490 wrote: »
    The 200CX was a beast. If he's upgraded the parts, it probably sounds pretty darn good.

    Plus, it has a high input impedance which is a good thing with a tube pre.

    I think the OP is being smart by spending some time with the stock tubes before looking at altering the sound with $$$ tubes.

    Stereophile magazine said
    This is, if not a world-beater, at least a world-class amplifier, far better than PS's previous amplifiers—not to mention just about all the competition. While not cheap, it's a lot less than many people have been paying for amplifiers that aren't nearly as good.—J. Gordon Holt
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    Before I get tubes I have to find a decent phono pre.
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    Description: Solid-state, stereo power amplifier. Inputs: direct-coupled (DC), capacitor-coupled. Output power: >200Wpc into 8 ohms, 400Wpc into 4 ohms, 1000Wpc into 1.5 ohms. Peak current: 64A. Bandwidth: DC to 140kHz, -3dB. Damping factor: >400. S/N Ratio: >100dB. Slew rate: 300V/ms. Rated THD: 0.02%. Rated IMD: 0.01%. Sensitivity: 1.3 volts for rated output.
    Dimensions: 19" W by 6½" H by 19" D. Weight: 78 lbs.
  • engie490
    engie490 Posts: 417
    Alon Lotus Elite / March Audio P451s / SST Thoebe II / Oppo BDP-105D / Technics SP-15 w/SAEC WE-308SX & Ortofon AS-309 arms / Ikeda 9C2 & Accuphase AC-1 carts
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    engie490 wrote: »

    Any good? Reviews?
  • engie490
    engie490 Posts: 417
    I've got one that I like very much. Absolute Sound had some high praise as well:

    https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/fosgate-signature-phonostage-preamplifier-fozgometer-azimuth-range-meter-tas-206/

    Also, based on the serial number, the one at Echo Audio is the V2.
    Alon Lotus Elite / March Audio P451s / SST Thoebe II / Oppo BDP-105D / Technics SP-15 w/SAEC WE-308SX & Ortofon AS-309 arms / Ikeda 9C2 & Accuphase AC-1 carts
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    @rebelsoul - When is this set to hit the household?

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    kzcd7qzqo8gi.jpg
    7stzt3feixes.jpg
    About a week
    treitz3 wrote: »
    @rebelsoul - When is this set to hit the household?

    Tom

    Thinking of this phono pre and then if I could find them Cary v12 monoblocks the one with the tubes down both sides.
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    I think that will put me few rungs up on this journey.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,136
    I have heard the Cary V-12. Might want to make sure it has enough power to run your new speakers. It may run out of enough juice if you like to listen at louder volumes. Great sounding amp though. I heard it with some Spatial Audio speakers and it had some very pleasing sonics.....at reasonable listening levels.

    I'd love to help you with the phono pre but my experience is pretty limited with outboard Phono Pre's. I currently have a Jolida JD9 Mark II tubed phono pre w/12AX7 Ei Gold Pin tubes. Many of the folks that come over seem to like it.

    I have heard an....of all things....an iPhono on a vinyl rig much better than what I have and I feel that that blows my Jolida out of the water, although, so does his vinyl rig. But, the iPhono is in his chain. Might want to get your ears on one of those.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 740
    treitz3 wrote: »
    I have heard the Cary V-12. Might want to make sure it has enough power to run your new speakers. It may run out of enough juice if you like to listen at louder volumes. Great sounding amp though. I heard it with some Spatial Audio speakers and it had some very pleasing sonics.....at reasonable listening levels.

    I'd love to help you with the phono pre but my experience is pretty limited with outboard Phono Pre's. I currently have a Jolida JD9 Mark II tubed phono pre w/12AX7 Ei Gold Pin tubes. Many of the folks that come over seem to like it.

    I have heard an....of all things....an iPhono on a vinyl rig much better than what I have and I feel that that blows my Jolida out of the water, although, so does his vinyl rig. But, the iPhono is in his chain. Might want to get your ears on one of those.

    Tom

    96 db at one watt very efficient speakers