My 5B - In Mod We Trust

plastic_avatar

@ChrisD06

Interesting!

I'll get out the better headphones and give it a listen.

I'm 100% willing to reevaluate my steps

I went through the vids in the car while waiting around for the family during errands yesterday. I thought, minus the boomy on the most recent one, everything above... maybe 200hz?... sounded great.

I've listened to the Floyd ones so many times, I could be too involved to hear them clearly.

I'll take a listen this weekend with your observations in mind.

I appreciate the input!

ChrisD06

plastic_avatar wrote: »

@ChrisD06

Interesting!

I'll get out the better headphones and give it a listen.

I'm 100% willing to reevaluate my steps

I went through the vids in the car while waiting around for the family during errands yesterday. I thought, minus the boomy on the most recent one, everything above... maybe 200hz?... sounded great.

I've listened to the Floyd ones so many times, I could be too involved to hear them clearly.

I'll take a listen this weekend with your observations in mind.

I appreciate the input!

If you made any changes after the Round 2 video that involves the cabinet, or the midrange I'd probably go back and undo them UNLESS you don't notice the video, there is a good chance it's just the phone microphone not being suited for this stuff.

It feels dead in the midrange to me. I noticed this on my Nothing Ear (2) as well, so it's not just my gear. Cool project though, these refresh threads are giving me the motivation to go ham on my M5JR+

Gardenstater

Compared to Mod 4, Mod 2 has excess reverb like I am listening to it underwater from within a diving bell. Mod 4 has much punchier and tighter bass. In Mod 4 I can actually make out the words of what the snotnosed kids are shouting towards the end. JMO.

plastic_avatar

[thinking]

Ya'know, I try to give recordings as I make changes for reference (mainly for others, not for me (I take lots of notes, so the recordings don't matter so much to me)).

I know it's a flawed reference. The boomy low-end in the ling recording is an example (but it's the mids I was interested in).

I could use my board(s) and a studio mic, but I'm just trying to show general changes over time.

[thinks]

I played everything from YouTube over Bluetooth to the DAC just now. Ick, that sounded terrible.

I might try another method to play it firectly through tge DAC through the pre to my better headphones. So I can better hear the differences in the Floyd recordings.

Gardenstater

Could you do a side by side comparison of the mods that were done in the Mod 4 and the Mod 2 video? I'm losing track. Like, I think they have different tweeters , internal wiring, and crossover components, and Mod 4 doesn't have the foam inside the basket?

plastic_avatar

Here ta' go:

Each is about 3-4 feet away from mic, but different zooms.

Tried to match db, but likely not perfect.

Wondering if zoom affects mic gain...

Both recorded with only left channel active.

---

Mod 2

- Printed phase plug
- BH5
- Wuhan
- Matted basket
- Foamed
- in corner

Mod 2
https://youtu.be/iYrdVJaZ2bE

---

Mod 4
At about 1:43 syncs it to the same spot as the Mod 2 vid.
https://youtu.be/0ktOBXGQ5bs

Mod 4

- Aluminum plug
- BH5
- Newly upgraded crossover (needs burned-in)
- Silver wiring
- Semi rings
- Hurricanes/bolts
- New terminals
- Removed polyswitch
- New gaskets
- Daytons
- 2ft from left wall/corner

ChrisD06

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Here ta' go:

Each is about 3-4 feet away from mic, but different zooms.

Tried to match db, but likely not perfect.

Wondering if zoom affects mic gain...

Both recorded with only left channel active.

---

Mod 2

- Printed phase plug
- BH5
- Wuhan
- Matted basket
- Foamed
- in corner

Mod 2
https://youtu.be/iYrdVJaZ2bE

---

Mod 4
At about 1:43 syncs it to the same spot as the Mod 2 vid.
https://youtu.be/0ktOBXGQ5bs

Mod 4

- Aluminum plug
- BH5
- Newly upgraded crossover (needs burned-in)
- Silver wiring
- Semi rings
- Hurricanes/bolts
- New terminals
- Removed polyswitch
- New gaskets
- Daytons
- 2ft from left wall/corner

Much better. Hard for me to tell the difference with that reverb in the guitar now, though Mod 4 sounds much better in the treble region. Also zoom on iPhones and Androids does affect microphone sound because they do AI processing for "audio zoom", so don't use the zoom.

Once you're done, please set up a proper mic and get some recordings, very interested to hear how they sound. Obviously no comparison with the originals but that's okay.

skipshot12

^ Have to listen to this out when I get home thru my buds.

When you removed the poly did you jumper or replace with a resistor?

ChrisD06

skipshot12 wrote: »

^ Have to listen to this out when I get home thru my buds.

When you removed the poly did you jumper or replace with a resistor?

Good question. For anyone wondering for future reference: Remove the poly and use a 0.5ohn resistor in its place to match the OG value to support the SL2000/RD0194 tweeters.

plastic_avatar

I jumpered.

Figured I'd get the resistor later and try it if I get that pair of 194 to test.

There's another wrinkle to the crossovers I'll post about later...

skipshot12

👍

ChrisD06

plastic_avatar wrote: »

I jumpered.

Figured I'd get the resistor later and try it if I get that pair of 194 to test.

There's another wrinkle to the crossovers I'll post about later...

Makes sense, it does sound a little bright in the treble. If you should end up upgrading the tweeters, buy the RD-0198 and just do the crossover mods needed. You're already missing the poly switch, pretty sure the only other thing is a capacitor value change.

Gardenstater

There's more to it with the 5B tl mod. Extra capacitor in parallel with a resistor and an inductor change. To go to the Series II XO would be too extensive of mods IIRC.

ChrisD06

Gardenstater wrote: »

There's more to it with the 5B tl mod. Extra capacitor in parallel with a resistor and an inductor change. To go to the Series II XO would be too extensive of mods IIRC.

Tweeter inductor is different and there's a bypass capacitor of 5.8uF in parallel with the resistor. Pretty simple modifications if you ask me.

Gardenstater

I did not say it wasn't fairly simple. Just not what you were saying it was.

ChrisD06

Gardenstater wrote: »

I did not say it wasn't fairly simple. Just not what you were saying it was.

Yeah I forgot the 5B didn't get a series 2 revision. Also the poly switch shouldn't be jumped, it should be in place or swapped with a half ohm resistor. Well, it's not mandatory, but you want a flatter response, and just jumping it will yield a brighter treble response.

plastic_avatar

I’ll post this in my 1C thread, but I compare a lot of things when I listen.

One is position, strength, and direction of sounds in the sound field.

Example:

pitdogg2

ChrisD06 wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

There's more to it with the 5B tl mod. Extra capacitor in parallel with a resistor and an inductor change. To go to the Series II XO would be too extensive of mods IIRC.

Tweeter inductor is different and there's a bypass capacitor of 5.8uF in parallel with the resistor. Pretty simple modifications if you ask me.

You know it's ALWAYS pretty simple with you, YET you've not done any of this on any speaker. You hand out advice as if you have extensive experience in each piece of advice you hand out. It's simple .....you don't!

For one inductors like anything have a +/- factor, also have an ohm factor. Now lets say you buy a set of tweeter inductors, do you just slap them in where the old inductors were? No! Not if you want to do it correctly. I've actually done this and I can insure you that inductors ARE all over the place. I'll give you just one example. I bought two 16mh inductors +/- 10%. In reality one was almost 20mh the other 15mh. Had I just thrown them in it would had definitely made the speakers not sound remotely the same.
You need to measure inductors and make them as close to the same as possible to capture the benefits you seek.

Simple right?

ChrisD06

pitdogg2 wrote: »

ChrisD06 wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

There's more to it with the 5B tl mod. Extra capacitor in parallel with a resistor and an inductor change. To go to the Series II XO would be too extensive of mods IIRC.

Tweeter inductor is different and there's a bypass capacitor of 5.8uF in parallel with the resistor. Pretty simple modifications if you ask me.

You know it's ALWAYS pretty simple with you, YET you've not done any of this on any speaker. You hand out advice as if you have extensive experience in each piece of advice you hand out. It's simple .....you don't!

For one inductors like anything have a +/- factor, also have an ohm factor. Now lets say you buy a set of tweeter inductors, do you just slap them in where the old inductors were? No! Not if you want to do it correctly. I've actually done this and I can insure you that inductors ARE all over the place. I'll give you just one example. I bought two 16mh inductors +/- 10%. In reality one was almost 20mh the other 15mh. Had I just thrown them in it would had definitely made the speakers not sound remotely the same.
You need to measure inductors and make them as close to the same as possible to capture the benefits you seek.

Simple right?

Yeah actually it's not too complicated.

This is just electrical component values and tolerance. A lower tolerance means the values will be closer to as advertised (a 10uF capacitor with a 10% tolerance could be 9 or 11 microfarad).

For an inductor you want the same milihenry value and the same DC resistance, and you want the tolerance to be as low (tight) as possible.

Measuring is a great way to see the difference between the two and confirm they're the values you desire.

I also find it funny how you tell me to gain extensive experience with this first, as if just learning isn't enough? Do you want people in universities to stop, say, studying nuclear physics and actually go out and do the stuff? You learn, and then you go out and do the thing you were learning about, and unless you're working with theoreticals, what you do will match what you learned.

pitdogg2

TRUST ME, I do not want the guy who read about soldering and NEVER soldered to teach me how to solder!! I also do not want the guy who read about running a metal lathe who has NEVER ran a metel lathe to teach me how to run one.
There's a huge difference between "book smarts" and EXPERIENCE ..... HUGE difference.

There is a huge difference you just don't comprehend the difference

ChrisD06

pitdogg2 wrote: »

TRUST ME, I do not want the guy who read about soldering and NEVER soldered to teach me how to solder!! I also do not want the guy who read about running a metal lathe who has NEVER ran a metel lathe to teach me how to run one.
There's a huge difference between "book smarts" and EXPERIENCE ..... HUGE difference.

There is a huge difference you just don't comprehend the difference

I don't want the guy who's replaced a fuse but doesn't know anything about the ratings of one to teach me how to replace a fuse.

Some things are knowledge. An inductors function is science and knowledge. Replacing an inductor is experience because of the soldering. I can solder, I know how inductors work, I can replace an inductor. If I couldn't solder and didn't understand how inductors work at all it'd be a much different story.

It feels to me like gatekeeping. I see quite a few members trying to argue unless you've experience with literally everything you have no say and yet few things here require actual experience. Obviously trying to say "Bose speakers don't sound good" and yet never hearing a Bose speaker is incredibly stupid, but something like, oh I don't know, replacing a component with matching values and understanding the meaning of the values and their function? Really?

Gatekeeping is one of the reasons I left the headphone and IEM community and I'll be damned if I leave the loudspeaker community.

At least you took the time to explain yourself. Some people just tell you you're incorrect and don't elaborate at all or bother to teach you, and then what? Expect me to go and research it? But that's what I did which you didn't like.

Gardenstater

Sheesh. This should probably work just fine for a 0.27mH, 0.5Ohm air core inductor and has a +/-3% tolerance if you trust Jantzen. Not to say that I'm not a firm believer in "trust but verify", that bit of dt wisdom from ol' Ronnie.

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1640-027mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html

pitdogg2

Gardenstater wrote: »

Sheesh. This should probably work just fine for a 0.27mH, 0.5Ohm air core inductor and has a +/-3% tolerance if you trust Jantzen. Not to say that I'm not a firm believer in "trust but verify", that bit of dt wisdom from ol' Ronnie.

All my Jantzens off enough to affect the XO, definitely verify.

ChrisD06

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

Sheesh. This should probably work just fine for a 0.27mH, 0.5Ohm air core inductor and has a +/-3% tolerance if you trust Jantzen. Not to say that I'm not a firm believer in "trust but verify", that bit of dt wisdom from ol' Ronnie.

All my Jantzens off enough to affect the XO, definitely verify.

Do you know if Dayton or Solen inductors measure off enough to affect the XO?

F1nut

Getting called out for being full of crap is the reason I left the headphone and IEM community

Fixed it.

ChrisD06

F1nut wrote: »

Getting called out for being full of crap is the reason I left the headphone and IEM community

Fixed it.

You're sadly mistaken but try again. I've owned a ton of IEMs and quite a few headphones, and was active in quite a few Discord communities. O left because I didn't like how snobs treated newbies, and how people spouted opinion as fact.

plastic_avatar

Brief report

- 40 hours in.

- I added VR3 felt around the Daytons.

- Sound continues to improve.

- imaging is similar to the 1C. Smaller, less presence, but locations of sound sources are close.

- Live female voices are wonderful. Some really do sound like they’re in the room.


The crossover wrinkle

My big plan was to fix these up over the week before the 4th with my Dad.

Canadian fires put the kibosh on that. No screen porch Polking with the compromised father while the air was toxic in Michigan.

The one day it was nice enough? I found out I had 2 different versions of the 5 crossovers.

I never noticed it before. Friend’s Dad bought them new, but one crossover has a fuse and the other a switch. Since they were wrecked, I just never paid attention to the one I wasn’t working on.

So, I removed the fuse and the switch and jumpered both. I may try a resistor in the circuit later.

(I’ll get new inductors at some point, to make sure they’re the same.)

And then I burned through one of the Daytons with the soldering iron whilst distracted while parenting. So, they came back home, and I finished them here.

Anyway

Another imperfect vid

Nico Vega, Gravity

With some 3D printer fan noise in the background, if you pick that up on quiet parts.

However, her voice is great.

https://youtu.be/3GZ9NS0fp8U

And my main amp blew a channel during a power outage. Surge protector protected, but not enough. Left channel is weak and full of fuzz now.

We had multiple surges/outages over the week for some reason. Ye olde Yammy did not like.

ChrisD06

plastic_avatar wrote: »

Brief report

- 40 hours in.

- I added VR3 felt around the Daytons.

- Sound continues to improve.

- imaging is similar to the 1C. Smaller, less presence, but locations of sound sources are close.

- Live female voices are wonderful. Some really do sound like they’re in the room.


The crossover wrinkle

My big plan was to fix these up over the week before the 4th with my Dad.

Canadian fires put the kibosh on that. No screen porch Polking with the compromised father while the air was toxic in Michigan.

The one day it was nice enough? I found out I had 2 different versions of the 5 crossovers.

I never noticed it before. Friend’s Dad bought them new, but one crossover has a fuse and the other a switch. Since they were wrecked, I just never paid attention to the one I wasn’t working on.

So, I removed the fuse and the switch and jumpered both. I may try a resistor in the circuit later.

(I’ll get new inductors at some point, to make sure they’re the same.)

And then I burned through one of the Daytons with the soldering iron whilst distracted while parenting. So, they came back home, and I finished them here.

Anyway

Another imperfect vid

Nico Vega, Gravity

With some 3D printer fan noise in the background, if you pick that up on quiet parts.

However, her voice is great.

https://youtu.be/3GZ9NS0fp8U

And my main amp blew a channel during a power outage. Surge protector protected, but not enough. Left channel is weak and full of fuzz now.

We had multiple surges/outages over the week for some reason. Ye olde Yammy did not like.

At this point I'm convinced surge protectors don't do anything. The number of times I bought a brand new surge protector, only to have something die in a power surge is actually 4. Which is 4 too many because I've owned 5 surge bars. One of those victims was an RT3000p sub, but fortunately it was just the capacitors.

I just unplug things the second I hear rain now, heck sometimes I flip the breaker off.

The 5Bs sound great, though. You went all out and it seems it paid off...

F1nut

Your average power strip/surge protector is next to worthless. The only thing they use are MOVs, which are a bit slow to react and become basically worthless after a surge or two.

To obtain real protection one has to step up their game, which of course will cost more money. Some of the better surge protection devices out there are made by SurgeX.

plastic_avatar

F1nut wrote: »

Some of the better surge protection devices out there are made by SurgeX.

Thank you for the recommendation. Noted. Added to buy list.

Even though the amp cost more than the pre, I'm glad it hit the amp. It was already on the top of my upgrade path.

Still hurts.

In the next few weeks, I'll have money to start looking for a new used amp. I'll be asking Polk Folk for help choosing things, again, soon.

And just as the 5(B) were getting burned in *and* I was used to sitting down to listen to the 1C every day =(