Life with the Legend L800

kimmy7988

Question. I had the L800 for a month and noticed that majority of vocals are coming a little towards the left side, utilizing the SDA. Is this because how the recording was done? I’ve noticed the following main vocals’ stage placement from my music collection: 10% from center, 60% left side, 30% right side. Most of the older records’ main vocals’ stage is a little on the left side…. Newer records have more dispersed stage placements, not towards more on the left side.

Emlyn

Funny you say that because I've been noticing the same thing with the L800s in my two channel system on some recordings. There's nothing wrong with anything in the chain and I can hear the stereo separation similarly on other speakers. I think it's just more pronounced on these speakers.

Stereo LPs of popular music were still experimental for the most part into the late 1960s.

nooshinjohn

kimmy7988 wrote: »

Question. I had the L800 for a month and noticed that majority of vocals are coming a little towards the left side, utilizing the SDA. Is this because how the recording was done? I’ve noticed the following main vocals’ stage placement from my music collection: 10% from center, 60% left side, 30% right side. Most of the older records’ main vocals’ stage is a little on the left side…. Newer records have more dispersed stage placements, not towards more on the left side.

Try listening to The Beatles early stereo recordings. All the vocals are on one side and instruments on the other...

Emlyn

Oh, man. I couldn't listen to the Beatles for many years because I had some of their albums only in stereo with that hard panning thing they did.

One of my favorite tracks for showing someone good stereo recording is Marvin Gaye's Let's Get it On. The album was recorded between 1970 and 1972. The multi layered lead vocals move around in the soundstage and the backing vocals come in and out off to the sides and all over. More of the vocals and instruments are deliberately off to the left with strings subtly towards the right channel. More of the backing vocals move to the right later in the song. Studio technology made big leaps from the 1960s to 1970s as money poured into the music industry.

It's a pretty cool song too when not in the sweet spot. A masterpiece!

JustinThyme

8 ft apart MLP 10 ft back. Instead of a tape measure I used a laser level aligned with the inboard tweeter and mid and aimed them right for where my ears are. I couldn’t part with my 1.2TLs, they are bringing up the rear. Nice experience to take the stereo output and split it to each pair and park in right in the middle. I spent hours just sitting with my eyes closed enjoying every minute of both pairs. Easy enough to reach splitters to just use it all as a 9.4.4 system for movies.

Just so you know the floor isn’t bare. I just had my area rug out back on the deck cleaning and drying when I took the pic. The reflections aren’t horrible without it but noticeable.

nooshinjohn

Another modest update... It has taken some time to find the right synergy and settings for all this new gear to come together, but that effort has been well rewarded. I could sit and listen to my rig for hours and never have the urge to leave the sweet spot. The way raw data leaves my computer and travels through the AQ Diamond USB to the Moon 380d DSD, then to the Arcam's CD input and out through Stereo-Direct to Carvers and then the Legends... somehow becomes the most engaging and thoroughly entertaining audio experience I have had the privilege of having in my home.

Everything that is in the recording can be heard, and in proper placement and tone. The speakers just disappear into the ether and the room becomes the venue, be it a recording studio or small, smoky jazz club. This setup still impresses me every time I turn it on, and it even begs me to find something I have never heard before and open my musical horizons. I find myself actually hearing the music instead of listening for the weak link. My rig is not changing for a very, very long time.

treitz3

I give you two months max.

Tom

nooshinjohn

treitz3 wrote: »

I give you two months max.

Tom

LOL… the only thing might be the addition of a turntable of some sort, but the core is not going anywhere…

dtowntke

I am thinking of buying a pair of l800 but I am reading that they have a narrow sweet spot, is that true ?

Emlyn

The narrow sweet spot would be in the ear of the beholder compared with other conventional speakers. Best to get ears on them properly set up to know for sure if they're what someone is looking for. From my own perspective there is definitely an optimum listening spot for stereo as there is with any properly set up pair of stereo speakers but the L800s have a pronounced "surround sound" aspect them that goes beyond the original SDA speakers. They work wonderfully for home theater use. To me they're the best dual purpose speaker Polk has produced to date.

treitz3

It's not nearly as tight/critical as other conventional speakers. Optimum, yes. But not within a couple of mm's, if that's what you are asking.

Any speaker, IME/IMO has an optimum sweet spot. It depends more on the speaker set up and location than anything else. If you are off there, the sweet spot can be increased, at the cost of other deficiencies.

Tom

msg

For my listening space, I find the L800s to have a narrow sweet spot, indeed. A matter of inches begins to skew the image. Sitting off axis by a couple of feet in my space can make it sound like the opposite channel is completely canceled. That is no exaggeration.

With that, for me, it's a speaker for serious sessions, not lounging on one side of the couch with music playing while reading.

I'm sure it depends on placement to a large degree. Mine were about 6.5ft between inner faces and about 8ft to listening seat. Currently have conventional speakers swapped in which have a wider sweet spot, though imaging still skews the further out I sit, but not like the L800s.

I agree with @Emlyn on that surround aspect. It's uncanny and startling when it occurs. The best I can describe it is that it's as if the presentation is on an arc with the sound typically extending about 3ft to 4ft out and forward. Occasionally, I've heard the surround make it back as far as my ears at 8ft/9ft depth.

Again, this is for my space, which is mostly open, and missing a left wall, with the space opening up into the main space. This makes the wrap slightly more pronounced on the right, where there is a wall within several feet.

nooshinjohn

msg wrote: »

For my listening space, I find the L800s to have a narrow sweet spot, indeed. A matter of inches begins to skew the image. Sitting off axis by a couple of feet in my space can make it sound like the opposite channel is completely canceled. That is no exaggeration.....

I can experience that as well, and the recording itself also has some bearing on that. It also occurs with conventional speakers. That said, even when not seated in the sweet spot, the L800 is still a fantastic speaker to listen to.

msg

Yeah, I wouldn't call it a detriment, unless you really want to be off axis all the time. If so, then I wouldn't recommend the L800 to someone.

I also feel like it works best as a solo listening speaker. Times when my gf's been over, if I want to demo something, we both can't occupy the best listening position at the same time. There can be only one.

@scubalab told me a while back when I was considering buying the L800 on that first promo that when he heard them at an audio show, they had the room occupants sitting in a single column, a few listeners deep - "bobsled style". That makes complete sense to me now.

Can they do background? Yeah, but ime, that seems to work best if you're not in the listening space, or too close to the triangle, more specifically. I think this true for any stereo pair, though, as others have mentioned.

Combined with the channel proximity bias when sitting off axis, that opposite channel presence reduction effect is testament to the effectiveness of SDA. When I first experienced it, I truly thought only one of my speakers wasn't playing. It was that pronounced.

I never really got a proper listen on the 2.3TLs to say whether the original SDAs present in this manner, as well, or to this degree.

treitz3

My apologies. When I used the word, "deficiencies". I was distracted with a phone call (multiple actually). I meant to say/type attributes. In other words, if placement isn't precise? You can increase the sweet spot because the optimization isn't there....but at the cost of other attributes if one was to sit in the sweet spot.

Even my Woodmere's sound great off axis and even out of the room but to "TRULY" enjoy what they have to offer? Ya' got's ta' be in the sweet spot. I feel that this is true with most speakers and speaker setups. If you are off by a foot or two, things will not be the same.

Tom

nooshinjohn

I have had several iterations of SDA, and the earlier versions all did this to some degree, but were more forgiving than the L800. I think the angled baffle has a lot to do with it.

treitz3

I believe this also has much to do with the distance between the listener(s) and the speakers, as well as the size of the room and also how close the reflections are from the ceiling/side walls.

As we always say....everything affects everything.

I listened to the 800's at Troy's at a distance of 13ish feet to 20 feet. These locations were not nearly as critical as when I sat in the actual "sweet spot", which was much closer. I was also standing up at these locations instead of sitting down...which of course, changes things as well.

I do not recall sitting a foot off of the sweet spot. But then again, why would you want to. Stereo was really meant for one listener IMO.

Even with a 13.1 setup or whatever they are doing nowadays? If you aren't in the "optimum" spot? There will be deficiencies. Especially if off axis.

Tom

msg

kimmy7988 wrote: »

Question. I had the L800 for a month and noticed that majority of vocals are coming a little towards the left side, utilizing the SDA. Is this because how the recording was done? I’ve noticed the following main vocals’ stage placement from my music collection: 10% from center, 60% left side, 30% right side. Most of the older records’ main vocals’ stage is a little on the left side…. Newer records have more dispersed stage placements, not towards more on the left side.

Emlyn wrote: »

Funny you say that because I've been noticing the same thing with the L800s in my two channel system on some recordings. There's nothing wrong with anything in the chain and I can hear the stereo separation similarly on other speakers. I think it's just more pronounced on these speakers.

Stereo LPs of popular music were still experimental for the most part into the late 1960s.

Ah, no way - I'm just now seeing these posts here - I experienced this same thing! At first I thought they were just that much more accurate. Then I made a post about center imaging and the majority of people said their listening is dead center. I thought there was something wrong with my integrated! My currently swapped in integrated, the Harman Kardon HK990, can't run the L800s due to dual differential inputs. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

@nooshinjohn - how's your imaging with the L800s? Is yours dead center, or are the front stage players more slightly off center?

nooshinjohn

msg wrote: »

@nooshinjohn - how's your imaging with the L800s? Is yours dead center, or are the front stage players more slightly off center?

Mine was to the left for the longest time. Proper break in and setup adjustments solved that problem. I have had my Arcam as a pre for two channel for nearly a year now and I have yet to run Dirac. I listen in Pure Direct mode anyway, and as long as there is no DSP in use, my image is rock solid in the center.

msg

Interesting. I'm wondering if mine could be room related. Most of the fluffy furniture is off to the right, and the image is left. Wonder if I'm not experiencing that with the Lintons due to toe-in minimizing it. Have to try again.

@Emlyn - are you still experiencing this?
@kimmy7988?

I did notice that it was more prevalent with certain recordings, as well.

nooshinjohn

Trying to PM you Msg... but it won't let me.

treitz3

For those that have L image tilt/shift or even R image tilt/shift?

Take a look at the measurements again with the distance between your chest/ears and each speaker. IME, when a speaker is just a little bit off? It will affect the imaging one way or another.

The distance from the listening position has to be within said triangle. That's a given. But if one speaker is further away from the other or if the tilt is ever so slightly off? This will render the image shifting to one side or the other.

Allowing the gear to break in is one thing. Proper setup is another and is a very time consuming task. The better the setup? The better the end result. Every aspect of the measurements must be precise (and I mean to within a 1/16th of an inch) in order for everything to come into fruition.

Both speakers must be at the same height. They must both be leveled. They must be at the same tilt. They must be at the same toe in. They cannot be outside of exacting measurements from the listening position. In other words, each speaker must be exactly the same distance from the listening position (again, to within a 1/16th of an inch). If ANY of these parameters are off?

You have compromised your end result.

This is provided you have done the basics leading up to this point, which I will not get into here. There was recently a thread explaining the benefits of this (Professional setup). IMO, this is THE cheapest tweak you could ever do. While the tools that allow you to measure everything may not be *directly* associated with an upgrade?

The difference it makes is worth every damned penny spent. FWIW

Tom

treitz3

I cannot find the original post I made on this (or a link to it) but I was able to find something I posted years ago.

Here is the "actual quote"....

treitz3 years ago... wrote:

What I ended up doing after much discussion online, with nearby professionals and the like, was taking each main speaker and loosely moving them around (Spikes on) until I found the best lower spectrum reproductive efforts (no subs at this point). As soon as I found the best location, I took measurements and found the "best spot" to place each main.....at this point, I was not paying any attention to mid and upper frequencies and this was done by ear, using many different passages of certain low frequency albums.

As soon as the "spot" was found , I measured the front and rear sides of the speakers to within 1/6th of an inch from the side walls. Both speakers were in the same exact position away from the wall. Then I verified the rear two corners of each speaker the same way from the back wall, making sure everything was within 1/16th of an inch. I then made sure that the speakers were perfectly leveled. At that point, I tilted the speakers back to where the direction of the tweeter went to the outside of my ears about 2". I then measured from my chest bone, without moving, the exact measurement from L to R speaker to within 1/16th of an inch, pointing the laser directly above the tweeter.

I kept going back and measuring everything I just mentioned again and again, until all parameters mentioned were within 1/16th of an inch, verified by lasers and a laser tape measure. I have box-type speakers [Tyler Acoustics Lynbrook Sig. Series, 1 piece towers], so I could easily mount the laser(s) along the fronts, sides and anywhere else to take precise measurements. I would mark with tape on the walls where the laser(s) left the speaker and traveled across the room to behind the listening position. Basically, I measured just about every conceivable parameter I could imagine that would alter the distance of any driver to my ears.

That yielded to date, the best imaging and spatial locationality cues I had ever heard from my system....or any system I had heard, truth be told. Ever since then, about every two months, I will go through the same thing, just to make sure one of the speakers did not deviate from the original positions. It took me about a week to dial everything in to perfection. Don't think that this is a "quick" procedure. Just adjusting the tilt knocks off some of the other measurements, for example. I just kept chugging at it until it was done.

Then I added the subs and did the same things with them, then dialed them into the room, then into the mains. Have not messed with it ever since. When I finally went to "test" the system after listening to many albums, I used the newer Isotek ultimate setup disc to confirm what my ears were hearing. The rig passed with flying colors on all test and tune up tracks. The 360 degree test was outstanding and spot on.

From now on, I will just keep tweaking the gear, as the speaker location/setup for me is done and done for good. I feel that there is no need or room for further improvement on that aspect.

Since then, I have gotten new speakers that have to be measured differently. I have gone through the same setup (exhaustively), yet the end result is the same.

A bit of advice for those wanting the ultimate? Set your speakers up to the "inth" degree and THEN worry about other gear. As mentioned before? This is the cheapest way, yet THE most rewarding way, to get your rig set up for bliss.

Yes, it's hard. Yes, it takes time. No, it's not simple. You make one adjustment? It throws 3 or 4 more adjustments off. Just keep at it.

The end result does not need to be messed with and can be considered a constant or reference. That is, until you move something or change speakers again.

Tom

Toolfan66

IMO the L800's not only have a great sweet spot but they also sound great throughout the room no matter where you are. I find them more enjoyable just because of this.

Now if I can just get myself to pull the trigger on a Cary NAP.

pitdogg2

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Trying to PM you Msg... but it won't let me.

Well lookie who landed on his list.....snicker snicker

stangman67

Bahahahahah. Classic

nooshinjohn

treitz3 wrote: »

I give you two months max.

Tom

I made it to November!

I am very pleased that the Legends do what the originals did. The L800's respond very well to upstream improvements in gear. More on the Simaudio Moon 680d in a separate thread, but the Legends' performance keeps getting better with improvements in the components feeding them. They are capable of completely vanishing into the room and allow the music to shine in ways that continually have me in awe.

The 680d has taken everything well beyond anything I have expected from my setup.

mpitogo

Wow, I can't believe it's been 4 years since I bought my L800s. I bought em in Nov at the 2019 NYAS.