Speakers start to distort after 5 minutes.

Tony M

My newly re-foamed Hartley speakers sound FANTASTIC but...

after a few minutes they start to distort pretty bad. Are they too low of an impedance for these two amps or could a capacitor cause this distortion after warming up?

Ok, they are 5.4 ohm woofers (2) wired in parallel. I read up on Parallel vs. Series wiring and it looks like these present a 2.7 ohm load. Good-grief!

I wired one speaker in series just for comparison and barely any sound came from the woofers compared to the tweeter. So I wired them back the way it was.

My Pioneer elite's owner's manual says not to go below 6 ohms. OK. I won't play them through that amp anymore.

I then hooked them up to my Onkyo TX-8211. It's supposed to play down to 2 ohm load speakers. OK...

These speakers sounded FANTASTIC hooked up to this Onkyo for a while!

5+ minutes easily. I turned up the volume for 30 seconds in the middle of this session on one song, and the speakers took it with ease. I wasn't blasting the volume, I just turned it up a bit. Beautiful sounding speakers for sure.

I left them playing normally for another 4 minutes and when I returned, the distortion was back. It was just starting to distort. Just like the Pioneer elite's sound sounded like after a few minutes. The distortion starts off slightly, like a radio station loosing focus.


I'm still wondering if it's the amps or the cross-overs capacitors overheating. Any thoughts from you guys?




I'm going to hook them up to my Carver TFM35 THX amp next just for a third comparison test.

The sound these speakers make for 5 to 10 minutes is impressive up until...

VR3

Sounds like an electronics issue

Tony M

VR3 wrote: »

Sounds like an electronics issue

With the receivers?

mhardy6647

I concur; the load presented by the loudspeakers is causing distress to the amplifier to which they are attached.
Check the wiring, inside & out, of the loudspeakers, carefully, for shorts or mistakes in the XO refresh.
Did this Onkyo work with these speakers before the XO rehab? If you don't know, it simply may not be up to the task.

Tony M

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I concur; the load presented by the loudspeakers is causing distress to the amplifier to which they are attached.
Check the wiring, inside & out, of the loudspeakers, carefully, for shorts or mistakes in the XO refresh.
Did this Onkyo work with these speakers before the XO rehab? If you don't know, it simply may not be up to the task.

These speakers are new to me. I had to re-foam them and re-do the wiring per the green corrosion.

The wiring is so simple, I replaced it slowly and carefully. But I'm still able to make mistakes since I'm human. I plan on opening BOTH speakers since they both distort at about the same time.

The cross-over looks original but I have NO image of what one should look like. I didn't change the cross-over components, just the wires from that buss-bar in the picture. The wiring indicators were already on the plate.

The Onkyo TX-8211 is a ONKYO collection leftover that I used to re-test all the speakers that were in the back room for some time. It's a brute and powered anything I hooked to it with ease. I have CHEAP ( ) speaker wire coming off the Onkyo right now. I'm going to up the wire gauge to 14 before the next session. I think it's 18awg now.

I'm thinking these speakers are dangerous to normal amps.

I think the designer likes to sell Classe' amps for his speakers since he's a dealer for them too.

I do LOVE the sound of these. I listened to them for under 5 minutes today at a normal level. I'll do a longer session at a purely normal listening level and see what happens. That first, then to open them up again and look close for issues.

Gardenstater

I guess you can't find any info. on them like a schematic to know if yours were done correctly?

I'm just going to take a stab at it. Maybe the difficult and low impedance load challenges amps and the more difficulty the amp has, the more clipping. The more clipping the sooner the voice coils in the speakers begin to overheat causing the static/distortion?

Tony M

These speakers are made by a private Co. here in Wilmington.

No mass production at all.

I'm going to look again on the web. My 5th time or more to see if there is a spec. list on their impedance.

I can still call the man or go see him in person since his store is 2 miles away. He's a touchy man to deal with so I've been hesitant so far.

mhardy6647

1. So, if I read correctly (and I went back and did a little "Hartley" sleuthing in terms of your recent posts on these) you don't know if they would have been working properly "as found" (i.e., when you got them)?

2. Is the crossover in these just one capacitor and one inductor (i.e., first order on the tweeter and the woofer(s))?

3. Were I you, I wouldn't hook them to anything until and unless you know that they're presenting a safe load. The impedance can be measured (or at least estimated) as a function of frequency, using a frequency generator (which could even be a phone app) and a good DMM. Alternatively, find someone with a PartsExpress/"Dayton Audio" woofer tester and, at the least, see what the woofers' impedance curves are like.

I am guessing they're presenting a very low impedance load, with bad, and possibly distastrous, consequences for the amplifier driving them. They may be purpose-built that way (in which case I'd strongly consider heeding the recommendation of the folks that build them in terms of an amplifier choice -- or just ditch 'em) or they may be effed up. In the latter case, it could be something you did or just the way that this pair was "as found".

If you have a output transformer-coupled amplifier, you could try that and see how it fares -- but I'd still be very careful.

Tony M

No, I didn't know if they worked properly. I did check to see if the drivers moved freely, which they did. There was no dents to any tweeter or those strange aluminum heat sinks sticking out from the woofers. The cabinets had sharp edges all around and the smaller bases were even in excellent condition. He bought them new. He said they sounded great when they first bought them but they hadn't used them since the foam rot was noticed. He held onto them thinking they would fix them but them moving prompted him to just get rid of them to somebody who wanted to fix them. He really praised their sound a few times.

I know this can mean NOTHING but the man is selling their house for 850K and everything about the property and his home's foyer was pristine.

I asked for a discount off his very just asking price and he gave me it. So it was a crap shoot. I wanted to re-foam another set of speakers...I was definitely Jonesing...

There is 2 identical Capacitors. One on top of another.

The woofer's resistances were 5.4 ohms. The label on the back says 4-ohms. I thought I saw that before at his house and rechecked tonight and that's right. 4 ohm speakers.

I took his word he bought them new since we talked about the Co. owner for a few minutes. He owned a Restaurant and the Co. owner and his wife frequented there enough to get to know them well.

There was enough foam rot attached for me to think they weren't used that much after the rot happened.

I was very careful and methodical about everything I did refurbishing these...but like I said, I'm human.


Now for the good news;

I went out tonight to address the issue why the Onkyo or the speakers presented distortion last night.

I turned the receiver on to time the distortion entrance and in seconds I remembered I NEED to get that 18awg wire the heck out of the chain! I cut some new 12' length 14awg cables and put banana plugs on the speaker ends and stuck the other clean wire ends into the Onkyo and turned the system on to time for distortion.

I kept the volume at normal level. After 25 minutes, all was still fine and clear and the Onkyo wasn't even very warm. I decided to push the volume here and there for 20 seconds or longer in intervals on different songs. The Onkyo got just a bit warmer but I wouldn't call it warming toward hot. It stayed almost like it wasn't pushing hard to drive speakers AT ALL.

I left it back at normal listening level and went to do some other stuff. I came back at the 40 minute mark and the amp was cool and speakers sounded GREAT throughout this test.

Sooo, I think ( for tonight anyway ) I replaced the internal wires correctly.

I think the Pioneer Elite can't drive these even with 14awg wire that I have hooked to it.

I think the Onkyo having those tiny wires going to the Hartleys created a problem for it's amp.

This was a 40 minute test tonight but I think with the right amp and wires, these speakers are really gems of the speaker world.

Little in stature but BIG on sound output. Very well balanced sound!

Keepers ?...probably.

audioluvr

Tony, you need to invest in a decent pair of 12ga (or better) speaker wire. OFC at least. You are missing so much. Your amps are like trying to breathe through a swizzle stick. Let me look around what I have in my old school stuff. I think I have some 10ga monster cable (from the 80's) I'll send you if you need it.

Tony M

audioluvr wrote: »

Tony, you need to invest in a decent pair of 12ga (or better) speaker wire. OFC at least. You are missing so much. Your amps are like trying to breathe through a swizzle stick. Let me look around what I have in my old school stuff. I think I have some 10ga monster cable (from the 80's) I'll send you if you need it.

Thanks for the kind offer.

I have some rolls of OFC 12awg I bought from Parts express or Mono Price years ago. I couldn't pass up a great sale.

I don't remember if I've cracked a seal on a roll of 12awg yet. I think I have...on the Polk SDA-SRS2's and my Newform Research speakers powered by the NAD C370.

Maybe that's why I LOVE the sound from those speakers and maybe why the NAD has powered them for years without a hic-up.

Again, thank you for your offer but I'm over-stocked with wire too.

I also have A/R 10awg wires. A member here posted a sale on some site MANY years ago and I bought 2 sets. A pair came in each one with banana plugs on their ends. They were 50.00 a set I believe. I used them until a banana plug broke off of one end.

Come to think of it now, I'm using THEM on those speaker pairs mentioned above. Again, they might be providing me with the GREAT listening qualities I've heard from the speakers for years now. I think I cut the one's ends off and used Mono-Price banana plugs at the amp's end.

michaeljhsda2

Tony M wrote: »

I also have A/R 10awg wires. A member here posted a sale on some site MANY years ago and I bought 2 sets. A pair came in each one with banana plugs on their ends. They were 50.00 a set I believe. I used them until a banana plug broke off of one end.

Come to think of it now, I'm using THEM on those speaker pairs mentioned above. Again, they might be providing me with the GREAT listening qualities I've heard from the speakers for years now. I think I cut the one's ends off and used Mono-Price banana plugs at the amp's end.

Ah yes, the AR 10 awg's from Partsexpress... I found those way back when and recommended them to others on the forum here. Unfortunately they no longer sell them...should have bought a couple extra pairs like you did...good to hear they've held up well over the years.

BlueBirdMusic

A good thread!!

"Problems" are always good teachers!

jdjohn

I wonder if the thinner wires were heating up (after warming up) as the speakers attempted to draw more current, eventually increasing the resistance to a less-than-optimal level.

Tony M

michaeljhsda2 wrote: »

Tony M wrote: »

I also have A/R 10awg wires. A member here posted a sale on some site MANY years ago and I bought 2 sets. A pair came in each one with banana plugs on their ends. They were 50.00 a set I believe. I used them until a banana plug broke off of one end.

Come to think of it now, I'm using THEM on those speaker pairs mentioned above. Again, they might be providing me with the GREAT listening qualities I've heard from the speakers for years now. I think I cut the one's ends off and used Mono-Price banana plugs at the amp's end.

Ah yes, the AR 10 awg's from Partsexpress... I found those way back when and recommended them to others on the forum here. Unfortunately they no longer sell them...should have bought a couple extra pairs like you did...good to hear they've held up well over the years.

Your name is ringing the bells now...

I'm 99.99% sure it was you letting us know about the sale. If I had more money back then, I would've bought 3 pairs or even 4 instead of just 2.

Thank you again.

jdjohn wrote: »

I wonder if the thinner wires were heating up (after warming up) as the speakers attempted to draw more current, eventually increasing the resistance to a less-than-optimal level.

I'm embarrassed to have even used those tiny wires to test my back room collection almost a year ago. They must've been hanging on the shelving rack the Onkyo and other amps are on. I twisted the tiny wire and threw it into my trash can out there. It might even be 20awg or 24.

It HAD TO BE the reason for the Onkyo to start distorting at about the same time-line as the Elite did.

The Onkyo and Hartley's seem like a match made in Heaven now.

Just like older Polks and these older Onkyo's are.

Tony M

BlueBirdMusic wrote: »

A good thread!!

"Problems" are always good teachers!

You are so right about that.

I like when the problems with audio are simple fixes by deduction and don't cost anything or very little.
Like the hum from my Adcom entrance system being a loose mismatched power cord. It was a head scratcher for a while there.


I still have to find out why my surround speakers were playing at a low volume months ago.

michaeljhsda2

You're welcome Tony! Yeah 24 ga is pretty small LOL, glad to hear you solved the problem! I'd like to see a pic of the Hartley's at some time if you don't mind.

Tony M

I only have these for now.























Big sound comes out of these guys.

michaeljhsda2

Looking good, I like how you restored the woofers.

Tony M

I can thank "Infinity speakers" for the beginner experiences into re-foaming.

I Also am thankful to the video on the web from "Simply speakers" where a guy re-foams a big Cerwin Vega woofer pretty much in real time. Here it is.

https://youtu.be/ZxC7oDIP0wE

The guy flips a new surround upside down and lays a bead on the cone part. he then spreads it a little and then flips it and positions it very carefully. That's the most critical point right there. Flipping the new surround with glue on it and making sure it lays right where the old surround was.

Of all the woofers and mids I've done, there's only been the AR410's woofers and mids I couldn't see where the old surrounds were on the face of the cone after cleaning the old remnants off. There was a set of JBL's where the surround went under the cone. But using the roll as the guide, that went easy. I had to continuously keep putting pressure around the cone's edge as I slowly spun them around for a few minutes till the glue set up and I felt the new surround was secure all around the back of the cones.

The glue gives you about 3 to 5 minutes to get your placement right before it starts to set-up pretty fast.

Only after watching that guy in the video did I get the courage to attempt my first Infinity woofers. Then more Infinity speakers popped up for sale here in Wilmington every week or two in between my previous purchases. It was like a rolling production-line here for a month or more. Then I bought other brands that needed re-foaming here and there.

The surrounds from Simply Speakers ALWAYS fit perfect too.

This was the first time I ordered "rubber" surrounds. 5.00 more per pair but I wanted to go against the norm..."replacing foam with foam"...and though...the rubber might be an upgrade for these. But I didn't know the thickness of the rubber was going to be this high of a quality. These are very high quality rubber surrounds!

I wish I hadn't thrown so many woofers away in the past! These woofers were a little tougher than some because the glue on the frames was harder to scrape off. Just goes to show Hartley used some good glue.

Check out the thickness...This woofer needs some black adhesive around that tube/cone joint asap.

michaeljhsda2