Legend L800 - Atmos Home Theater

audioluvr

No offense but I think the best approach here is to put the wife and kids up in a fancy hotel, bulldoze the place to the ground and start fresh. There's a few members here that can design, engineer and build the appropriate home that will get those L800's working properly for you. They will be PM' ING you shortly. And don't forget, pics or it didn't happen!

Clipdat

Wasn't there some issue with early production run L800s that had the labeling for L and R reversed or something? I seem to remember some printing error with the manual/setup instructions but I can't remember exactly what it was.

JayCee

tjcinnamon wrote: »

JayCee wrote: »

Haven't heard the L800s but did have the L200's during the CP demo, so have a taste for the sound signature of the Legend line.

That said, currently have 1.2tl's, 3.1tl's, CRS+'s. In my experience, one of the biggest limiting factors to good vs superb sound stage is having anything between or extending forward from a SDA and, found without exception, the depth and center imaging is so much better when everything is minimized or eliminated. Not easy to do for most folks but I built my current 2 channel rack with open sides and as low to the floor as possible for this exact reason. A large sound panel dead center rounds it out. My 1.2tl's are 6.5' center-to-center, 6.5" from the rear wall and my seated position is 8' from the plane of the speakers.

I really hope you can dial these in and they meet or exceed your expectations. Since you've heard them and they did it's not a question of the L800's abilities to do so. I'm rooting for you (and Polk) to have a real world success. Not sure when I'll get my ears on a pair but look forward to at some point.

Can you elaborate on this: having anything between or extending forward from a SDA and, found without exception, the depth and center imaging is so much better when everything is minimized or eliminated

Perhaps I have something in the way?

pitdogg2 wrote: »

My 2.3tl's are set up 4" off the back wall and nothing in between the speakers and the side walls are 5' minimum from the sides of the speakers. There is nothing along the side walls that sticks out either. I have also found that a credenza, cabinet or anything else in the middle between the speakers messes with the sound stage. My speakers disappear in the room and many think they are not even playing because the music comes from the wall in between and behind my speakers.

What pitdogg said^^^^ with the exception of the side walls. I have approx 3' to wall. My house is 106 years old and the room is upstairs with a dormer roofline that angles above the speakers (+ seated position) and, I theorize, works to my benefit by eliminating bass frequency corner loading.

Following pic is from the L200 demo. You can see the acoustic panel I built using 2x4's, 2" of 705 accoustic panels and a light duty printable fabric printed w/a pic I took skiing in France. (Going to move the canvas to the exercise room and will replace w/the same fabric but more suitable look.) I've also experimented w/panels behind me and found they sucked the life out of the sound. A simple Persian rug actually does better on the back wall and it dampens just enough to knock down echo. Try moving your panels to behind the tv. Also, many folks experiment in and around the rear of the speakers. This room shouldn't work but with experimentation I've dialed it in. I've lived in 4 different houses in the past 10 years and this is by far the best sound I've ever had.


Replaced the rack in the previous picture w/this DIY one to achieve the open rack and no (limited) boundaries I mentioned earlier. It does portrude slightly (gear's too deep) in front of the plane of the SDA's but still made a very significant difference w/center imaging and soundstage (depth and width).

tjcinnamon

Clipdat wrote: »

Wasn't there some issue with early production run L800s that had the labeling for L and R reversed or something? I seem to remember some printing error with the manual/setup instructions but I can't remember exactly what it was.

How would I test that? The inner speaker is the one that should play with the SDA unplugged, correct?

tjcinnamon

JayCee wrote: »

tjcinnamon wrote: »

JayCee wrote: »

Haven't heard the L800s but did have the L200's during the CP demo, so have a taste for the sound signature of the Legend line.

That said, currently have 1.2tl's, 3.1tl's, CRS+'s. In my experience, one of the biggest limiting factors to good vs superb sound stage is having anything between or extending forward from a SDA and, found without exception, the depth and center imaging is so much better when everything is minimized or eliminated. Not easy to do for most folks but I built my current 2 channel rack with open sides and as low to the floor as possible for this exact reason. A large sound panel dead center rounds it out. My 1.2tl's are 6.5' center-to-center, 6.5" from the rear wall and my seated position is 8' from the plane of the speakers.

I really hope you can dial these in and they meet or exceed your expectations. Since you've heard them and they did it's not a question of the L800's abilities to do so. I'm rooting for you (and Polk) to have a real world success. Not sure when I'll get my ears on a pair but look forward to at some point.

Can you elaborate on this: having anything between or extending forward from a SDA and, found without exception, the depth and center imaging is so much better when everything is minimized or eliminated

Perhaps I have something in the way?

pitdogg2 wrote: »

My 2.3tl's are set up 4" off the back wall and nothing in between the speakers and the side walls are 5' minimum from the sides of the speakers. There is nothing along the side walls that sticks out either. I have also found that a credenza, cabinet or anything else in the middle between the speakers messes with the sound stage. My speakers disappear in the room and many think they are not even playing because the music comes from the wall in between and behind my speakers.

What pitdogg said^^^^ with the exception of the side walls. I have approx 3' to wall. My house is 106 years old and the room is upstairs with a dormer roofline that angles above the speakers (+ seated position) and, I theorize, works to my benefit by eliminating bass frequency corner loading.

Following pic is from the L200 demo. You can see the acoustic panel I built using 2x4's, 2" of 705 accoustic panels and a light duty printable fabric printed w/a pic I took skiing in France. (Going to move the canvas to the exercise room and will replace w/the same fabric but more suitable look.) I've also experimented w/panels behind me and found they sucked the life out of the sound. A simple Persian rug actually does better on the back wall and it dampens just enough to knock down echo. Try moving your panels to behind the tv. Also, many folks experiment in and around the rear of the speakers. This room shouldn't work but with experimentation I've dialed it in. I've lived in 4 different houses in the past 10 years and this is by far the best sound I've ever had.


Replaced the rack in the previous picture w/this DIY one to achieve the open rack and no (limited) boundaries I mentioned earlier. It does portrude slightly (gear's too deep) in front of the plane of the SDA's but still made a very significant difference w/center imaging and soundstage (depth and width).

It's good to know I still have options. Luckily I have a lot of sound absorption and diffusion to play around with to experiment and the manual isn't the only way to make it work.

How far apart are the speakers and what's your listening distance?

JayCee

JayCee wrote: »

My 1.2tl's are 6.5' center-to-center, 6.5" from the rear wall and my seated position is 8' from the plane of the speakers.

Edit to add...moving the speakers a fraction of an inch and the soundstage can collapse or be sublime. I even use a level to ensure plumb.

Place the speakers on moving sliders and do the crawl w/them to get the soundstage. Then, when you think you're good, switch back to spikes to solidify/lock in the sound. Most important, as Polk probably still advises w/the L800's(?), start w/an equilateral triangle and then document your moves. The seated position, dead center between the speakers, is critical w/SDA and doesn't like to be off balance. Not a lazzer sweet spot but it's not really forgiving in the same way a line array speaker is.

tjcinnamon

JayCee wrote: »

JayCee wrote: »

My 1.2tl's are 6.5' center-to-center, 6.5" from the rear wall and my seated position is 8' from the plane of the speakers.

Thank you! I think I can pull that off.

JayCee

You're absolutely welcome. I hope it pays off!

Posted in another thread:
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2639501/#Comment_2639501
Scroll down and look over my track list and comments. If you have any of the songs or are able to stream it'll give you a sense of my listening space and what I look for. I can immediately detect if anything is off.

tjcinnamon

JayCee wrote: »

You're absolutely welcome. I hope it pays off!

Posted in another thread:
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2639501/#Comment_2639501
Scroll down and look over my track list and comments. If you have any of the songs or are able to stream it'll give you a sense of my listening space and what I look for. I can immediately detect if anything is off.

Perfect! I'll give that Cars song a while.

tjcinnamon

Update:

Method: I moved everything around in my room. Removed the diffusers, pushed the TV back, removed the bass traps, moved the speakers forward so nothing was in front of them at all, heck, removed all of the couch cushions... I experimented with moving the room treatments behind the TV, behind the speakers, next to the speakers, everything I could think of. Also, a substantial amount of time went into unplugging SDA and testing without. Also, I moved my seat toward and away from the speakers to test the soundstage changes. Then slowly added items back.

Source Material: I used that Cars and Dire Straights test tracks with the Eagles Hotel California Live and a Yosi Horikawa track called Bubbles.

Results: Ultimately I could get the sound stage to be approx 1' to 3' to the right or the left of the speaker vs SDA off. Meaning it's working in some capacity but the speakers are still localizable. However, my expectations could be too high relative to my first impression. That said despite the left/right expanded sound stage it was substantially more 3D. It was a "between the speakers" with SDA and didn't have a lot of the Z axis (between me and the speakers)

Remaining items: order some additional amps off Crutchfield for testing. I think the Stereo store where it hit crazy good was using a Parasound or a Rotel (I requested one of them). I'm going to ask them to see which one it was. I doubt it's the amp but it's a super easy test. Outright remove the TV from in between (even if it's pushed back). Granted the TV has to be there in the end but it will give me insight.

Questions: The outer speaker is the one that is the SDA, correct (just making sure I have them correct)? Does 1' to 3' seem normal or a touch weak for soundstage?

JayCee

Traveling, so quick post....

Amp, amp and more amp (quality power!). L800's are hungry beasts and all reports are they open up w/mo' better. I run a Parasound HCA-1500A w/my 3.1tl's but have used them on the 1.2's. You can't go wrong w/Parasound and I believe, from past experience, Crutchfield has a good return policy? The two guys that have L800 ownership need to chime in here are @ptrooper and @mpitogo @mpitogo2. Come on guys, help a new CP brother out!

Re. the Cars track. Dude, it should sound 10 feet deep, like out of the room wide, and have a cavernous (think cave) 3D effect. Dire Straights, it's a symphony of modern music w/placement and localization of the instruments. Tone, body and dynamics to boot.

All I can type now but looks like you're making positive progress!!!!

Questions: The outer speaker is the one that is the SDA, correct (just making sure I have them correct)?

Not in the manual? Example from 1.2's...

tjcinnamon

JayCee wrote: »

Traveling, so quick post....

Amp, amp and more amp (quality power!). L800's are hungry beasts and all reports are they open up w/mo' better. I run a Parasound HCA-1500A w/my 3.1tl's but have used them on the 1.2's. You can't go wrong w/Parasound and I believe, from past experience, Crutchfield has a good return policy? The two guys that have L800 ownership need to chime in here are @ptrooper and @mpitogo @mpitogo2. Come on guys, help a new CP brother out!

Re. the Cars track. Dude, it should sound 10 feet deep, like out of the room wide, and have a cavernous (think cave) 3D effect. Dire Straights, it's a symphony of modern music w/placement and localization of the instruments. Tone, body and dynamics to boot.

All I can type now but looks like you're making positive progress!!!!

I'm running an Anthem 325 MCA Gen2. It's 400W at 4 ohm and 600W at 2 ohm. It's supposed to be single ended output but has some balanced out in some of the stages after input. So I doubt it does anything bad but I'm going to check.

tjcinnamon

JayCee wrote: »

Traveling, so quick post....

Amp, amp and more amp (quality power!). L800's are hungry beasts and all reports are they open up w/mo' better. I run a Parasound HCA-1500A w/my 3.1tl's but have used them on the 1.2's. You can't go wrong w/Parasound and I believe, from past experience, Crutchfield has a good return policy? The two guys that have L800 ownership need to chime in here are @ptrooper and @mpitogo @mpitogo2. Come on guys, help a new CP brother out!

Re. the Cars track. Dude, it should sound 10 feet deep, like out of the room wide, and have a cavernous (think cave) 3D effect. Dire Straights, it's a symphony of modern music w/placement and localization of the instruments. Tone, body and dynamics to boot.

All I can type now but looks like you're making positive progress!!!!

Questions: The outer speaker is the one that is the SDA, correct (just making sure I have them correct)?

Not in the manual? Example from 1.2's...

If that's the case then my left and right are mislabeled. When I unplug the SDA cord the outer speakers stop firing.

Gerres26

tjcinnamon wrote: »

JayCee wrote: »

Traveling, so quick post....

Amp, amp and more amp (quality power!). L800's are hungry beasts and all reports are they open up w/mo' better. I run a Parasound HCA-1500A w/my 3.1tl's but have used them on the 1.2's. You can't go wrong w/Parasound and I believe, from past experience, Crutchfield has a good return policy? The two guys that have L800 ownership need to chime in here are @ptrooper and @mpitogo @mpitogo2. Come on guys, help a new CP brother out!

Re. the Cars track. Dude, it should sound 10 feet deep, like out of the room wide, and have a cavernous (think cave) 3D effect. Dire Straights, it's a symphony of modern music w/placement and localization of the instruments. Tone, body and dynamics to boot.

All I can type now but looks like you're making positive progress!!!!

Questions: The outer speaker is the one that is the SDA, correct (just making sure I have them correct)?

Not in the manual? Example from 1.2's...

If that's the case then my left and right are mislabeled. When I unplug the SDA cord the outer speakers stop firing.

Which should be correct since your outer drivers are your dimensional drivers( aka SDA). So when you unplug the cable, the outer most drivers should stop playing if I remember correctly.

tjcinnamon

Gerres26 wrote: »

Which should be correct since your outer drivers are your dimensional drivers( aka SDA). So when you unplug the cable, the outer most drivers should stop playing if I remember correctly.

Perfect. THats what I thought

tjcinnamon

Looks like the issue may be the space between the back wall and seated position. The amp arrives Saturday but I highly doubt that’s the issue

tjcinnamon

The Parasound somehow sounds different but I level checked them on REW and basically got the same results for level match. It’s an Anthem MCA 325 Gen 2 and a Parasound A23+

I need to do more A/B testing but I’m hoping it’s placebo and they sound the exact same in reality.

tjcinnamon

Did some measurements and the anthem is basically the same. I'm going with that for a litany of reasons. I've been working with Matt Poes from Audioholics and Poes Accoustics on a paid consult and we have some good direction at this point. Now I just need to find the time to implement.

msg

Curious to hear recommendations you've had.

tjcinnamon

msg wrote: »

Curious to hear recommendations you've had.

Thus far, experimenting with the distance from the wall to see if my 18" head position from the wall is causing an issue, adding different types of absorption materials, and messing with a very slight toe in 2.5 degrees at a time (based on my requirement of speakers being further apart). It's a lot of subjective analysis based on SDA not being in measurements.

Depending on those results I may need to mess with the room treatments behind me. The GIK are not great. Their graphs are deceptive and their definition of absorption don't apply to absorbing the backwall.

I've been more focused on enjoying the content since the meeting but I'm going to do some more testing soon. Even at "30%" SDA it's still fantastic for TV/Movies because the Left and Right are more "forward" in the soundstage and therefore more separated from the center channel. My Paradigm Prestige were very clean but this is much fuller and clear.

There's some crazy bass "issues" to iron out but those aren't impacting the SDA which is the primary focus.

Emlyn

Good to see the degree to which you're working with them. I would have similar issues with the L800s with having to sit close to the back wall where my two channel system is located. Usually just stick a big pillow behind my head when I'm listening.

tjcinnamon

I feel like these are a bit under represented for home theater and TV. The soundstage really adds to the experience. I have yet to hear sports but I bet that really extends the crowdnoise. It's much more organic than surround sound.

Emlyn

I used SDA-SRS 2.3TLs and SDA-1Cs for home theater from 7.1 to 5.2 for a few years. Good stuff.

Have you used the Atmos feature built into the L800 yet, or would that complicate setup at the moment?

tjcinnamon

Emlyn wrote: »

I used SDA-SRS 2.3TLs and SDA-1Cs for home theater from 7.1 to 5.2 for a few years. Good stuff.

Have you used the Atmos feature built into the L800 yet, or would that complicate setup at the moment?

I have the modules because they came with the “open box” but I already have 4 in the ceiling. I am curious to see how they sound though…
Perhaps that will mess with the sound stage even more (for the better). I may monkey with them and run a splitter so they just get the right and left or center

Not until I get my current conundrum settled though

Kex

I think it’s worth “monkeying” with them. 😉

Obviously, the conundrum is more important, but the fact that they use the same tweeters is theoretically better for Atmos, unless you have Polk ring radiator tweeters already for your in-ceiling height speakers.

tjcinnamon

Even at partial effectiveness these are fantastic and leagues better than my old Paradigm Prestige. A massive upgrade and super fun to listen too. I still have to fix my room a bit but I'm going to play with those atmos modules. I may actually wire them up like the SDA to see if it adds to it. I can put the Left on the Right and reverse the polarity.

nooshinjohn

tjcinnamon wrote: »

I may actually wire them up like the SDA to see if it adds to it. I can put the Left on the Right and reverse the polarity.

I would check with Polk before doing that. There is a lot going on in the crossover already to start messing around and take a chance on shorting something out.