Tape Hiss = Listening Fatigue???

jdjohn

I finally got the Akai GX-77 R2R tape deck from my dad's collection working properly. I also found a box of about a dozen home-made vintage rock tapes that suit my fancy. My dad did not record these - most likely purchased at a thrift store - but they seem to have been well-recorded on good equipment from good vinyl. They were recorded at 7.5 IPS. That's all good, and frankly, I was delighted with finding these.

The problem is: after listening 'at-volume' (i.e., with wifey out of the house), I started to get listening fatigue after about 20min or so.

I have a few of these albums on vinyl as well, so of course queued those up for some real-time A/B toggle comparisons. With adjusting the amount of phonostage gain, I was able to get IMO comparable volume/SPL for this test, so a fair test. During quiet passages, I could hear a bit of the (perhaps) inevitable 'tape hiss' when listening through the R2R.

My only conclusion is that the tape hiss is causing my listening fatigue.

1) I am delighted (and impressed) overall at the quality of this R2R playback.
2) I wonder if recording fresh tracks with my modern equipment would yield better results.

Anyone here have a similar experience, and/or have improvements with fresh recordings using modern gear?

pitdogg2

Yes
I find that true especially on older recordings. I've bought SACD's of 1960's stuff and with all the magic in the world they cannot overcome the inherent tape hiss from the tape they used before better tape formulations and noise reduction came along.

I just can't unhear that stuff.

[Deleted User]

I don't believe tape hiss can be the cause of listener fatigue, I believe it can be an indicator of something else amiss in a system. In effect it's a signpost of an uneven treble response; narrow range peaks in the frequency response that change the overtone structure of music instruments and quite literally "get on our nerves".

sucks2beme

tape hiss and album pops are a fact of life.
Good album care helps. Good tape and
dolby helped reduce hiss. But it is there.
I still remember playing my 1st cd. I set the
volume way too high. I was used to background noise,
so I turned it up expecting to hear some noise at the intro.
Instead, dead quiet and then the music blasted.
Early Cd's for the most part did sacrifice some quality.
Most we poorly remastered.
I hope you figure this out so you can enjoy some analog.

jdjohn

KennethSwauger wrote: »

I don't believe tape hiss can be the cause of listener fatigue, I believe it can be an indicator of something else amiss in a system. In effect it's a signpost of an uneven treble response; narrow range peaks in the frequency response that change the overtone structure of music instruments and quite literally "get on our nerves".

Of course I don't know what system components were used to record the tapes I'm listening to, so perhaps that system (and how set up), and/or the original album/recording used, are the underlying sources of the fatigue I'm experiencing, and not just the inherent tape hiss itself. I don't get fatigued at all when playing vinyl or streaming music from my own system.

Maybe I'll try making my own recordings of the same albums, and see how they compare.

[Deleted User]

That sounds like a really good idea, let us know how it compares.

motorstereo

I'm betting it's the compression coupled with the tape hiss that gets fatiguing. In my case a good friend passed away a few years ago and left me his rtr collection along with over 100 tapes. Sadly as much as I wanted to listen to all of them I felt the same way and quickly tired of the rtr format. Modern media and recording methods have us spoiled imo.

oldrocker

I have a similar situation with my Akai.

For me, I don't sense it as fatigue, it's more an annoyance of extra noise during playback.

Pink noise, white noise or purple noise, I have no idea what it would be defined as, I just hear it especially between tracks.

What gear are you running your Akai on?

I have mine running on an old sx950 with a set of dm4's.
Although in very good condition the 950 & 4's are old pieces with the RTR being 1973-1976 era. I'm sure that has something to do with what I'm hearing.

When everything is powered on but no tape playing I can hear a sound, it's not a traditional hum, just what I'd call a power on sound.

I can increase the volume and the sound of course gets louder.

If I get a chance this weekend, I will hook it up to modern gear and compare to see if I get a similar sound.

If it is less a presence I will open one of my new sealed blank tapes and do a recording of a song on a cd that has a 9+/- minute gap between the last song as I'm curious what the sound I'm hearing might be like during the gap on newer gear versus old.

I suspect for me to solve this issue it would take a complete rebuild of the old gear and that's something I can't do nor do I know anyone in my area that can do that type of work.

Even though they are goofy sounds, I do enjoy the RTR thing from time to time.

jdjohn

@motorstereo To your point, it seems that 15 IPS is what's needed for (what most of us would consider) high-quality playback, which requires a more expensive tape deck, and using 10" reels. I think the higher speed would grant more dynamic range, and remove the compression a bit, but I don't have first-hand experience with that format.

@oldrocker I'm actually using modern gear, which is naturally more revealing of any inherent noise. Without going into too much detail, I was initially using a McCormack DNA-225 power amp, but then decided to try my PS Audio S300 to see how a Class D amp would sound with it.

The first two reels that gave me fatigue were REO Speedwagon's, You Can Tune a Piano, But You Can't Tuna Fish, and Boston's self-titled debut album. Both those albums have a lot of high-frequency energy, so perhaps the recordings themselves create an obstacle that is difficult to overcome. And like I said earlier, I don't know the cartridge, tt, or preamp that were used to record the tapes, so that might have made things worse.

I'll do more experimenting.

mhardy6647

Yeah, yeah, 15 ips...
7-1/2 ips offers very good fidelity and even dynamic range.
It really does.

mhardy6647

Boston.
I think I've told you the story of that album.
When it was new, I had a cat called The Bear.
She used to like to sit and listen to music with me... but when I put on Boston, she'd leave the room.

Awful sounding on LP (at least the one I bought way back when) -- extremely harsh & aggressive treble. I haven't listened to it for decades (and that's part of the reason why!).

jdjohn

Chances are that Bear would have also run out if you'd played REO Speedwagon's, "Roll with the Changes", "Time for Me to Fly", and the live version of "Riding the Storm Out".

Perhaps my listening fatigue the other night was onset when I played Boston and those REO songs, and then my ears couldn't recover. I'm not even kidding.

mhardy6647

Yeah, I didn't have them on LP in her lifetime... I do now, but I don't think I've ever actually listened to 'em.
I remember, even on the radio, that they were kind of fizzy sounding.

Journey -- I have that reaction to a lot of the Journey tracks (on CD) that I've heard.
Ahem, Journey is one of my guilty pleasures, I guess...

jdjohn

Hey, brother...Don't Stop Believin'

mhardy6647

jdjohn wrote: »

Hey, brother...Don't Stop Believin'

You are a very bad man.

Jetmaker737

I've been collecting 2-track prerecorded tapes from the '50s for a couple years. I have a few dozen by now. All classical. I've listened critically to many of them and recorded notes. Most of them are excellent-sounding. Some I rate as superb SQ. The variety of hiss is interesting. In some tapes very noticeable. In some almost unnoticeable. I don't find that the hiss affects the SQ at all. It's just there or it isn't.

jdjohn

Thanks to everyone for their input. The open-reel tape format is certainly still new to me, so I remain firmly attached to the learning curve. I do, however, have some additional thoughts after more listening today.

First and foremost, I no longer think tape hiss caused listening fatigue for me. I am convinced that what I experienced a few nights ago was due to the particular recordings to which I was listening. The (excessive) treble energy in the REO Speedwagon and Boston tracks was too much of an onslaught for my tender eardrums and then it continued (i.e., was compounded) with further listening of other material. Having said that, I'd bet that some application of Dolby noise-reduction would have helped, but that is purely hypothetical.

After now listening to a few more of the random dubbed/home-made tapes in the box I found, I do think 7 1/2 IPS can yield good results...BUT the type/brand of tape used makes a difference! One subset of the tapes I found were all recorded on TDK tapes, and apparently by one particular gentleman from Atlanta who put his name and PO Box on each box, and these all sound quite good. However, there was a different subset, recorded on Ampex 'back-coated' tapes, and those have now found their way into the trash bin. I didn't listen to all of them, in order to save myself from repeated cleaning of heads, but needless to say, their reputation precedes them, and it is well-founded. There may be a (very) few exceptions, but my recommendation is to avoid any and all Ampex tapes, and any 'back-coated' tapes in general.

One of the advantages to living in Nashville is having access to 'support' vendors for the recording industry. Today, I noticed that a couple of the plastic take-up reels I had were warped, causing the ubiquitous rubbing/swooshing of the tape on the inside of the reel flanges...not good. But luckily, I was able to find a vendor located within just a few miles of my house (who operates from his own house) that sells various analog tape supplies. So, I was able to order and pickup two new 7" plastic pick-up reels in just a matter of hours I feel inclined to give him a shout-out here (no affiliation, blah, blah) https://nashvillerecordingsupply.com Adam is a cool guy, and he carries ATR Magnetics products, which appears to be a premier supplier of modern analog tape products. Of course, most of their products are meant for mastering, but hey, for the discerning 'archivist', is there such a thing as 'too good'? Risk $ on NOS tapes from eBay, or buy new modern equivalents?

Lastly, I'm proud to now say I have two operational R2R tape decks in-house - the aforementioned Akai GX-77, and also a Pioneer RT-707. I've put some serious sweat-equity into these, so I have to say it is quite satisfying to have them operational, AND with some quality recordings to play on them

BlueBirdMusic

Jody, I think you are having FUN!

Only one friend of mine had a R2R in the 70's. My only experience with R2R.

I noticed Lava Lamps and vintage ash trays on that Nashville site.

mhardy6647

Besides tape type, of course, the condition of the deck used to make the recordings (head wear, alignment, cleanliness, and [de]magnetization state), as well (of course!) the "upstream" components (fundamentally, the source component) and the original recording itself (assuming the tapes are "dubs") will influence what you hear on playback on your deck.

It's - of course - even a little more subtle/complicated than that. What matters most is the "condition" of the recording deck relative to your deck. The deck on which a tape was made may have bias & EQ perfectly adjusted for the tape type used, and have meticulously aligned and maintained heads... but if your deck is "misaligned" (playback EQ and/or head alignment) you won't get 100% of what's on the tape.

I realize the above is probably painfully obvious -- but -- I do like to type!

Rock on wit' yo' bad thang (as they used to say back in my day).

mhardy6647

BlueBirdMusic wrote: »

Jody, I think you are having FUN!

Only one friend of mine had a R2R in the 70's. My only experience with R2R.

I noticed Lava Lamps and vintage ash trays on that Nashville site.

Yes. Yes he is.
In fact, it's time for him to start looking at Otari, MCI, and Studer.

jdjohn

Who's the very bad man now? I have plenty of R2R decks remaining from my dad's collection to keep me occupied - more Akai, Sony, Teac, and even a Rheem Roberts. I guess they made tape decks before air conditioners

mhardy6647

They (Rheem/Roberts) were the distributors for AKAI tape decks in the US in the latter's early days here, and put their own name on them. Similarly, Concertone decks were TEACs (by the early 1960s) and Sony tape decks were distributed in the US by Superscope (the widescreen cinema "Superscope" folks) -- although they were still branded "Sony" in the US even then.

Weird times in the hifi industry, the early 1960s. Real sea change from US to imported (mostly Japanese) electronics from the very late 1950s to the mid-60s.

Jetmaker737

jdjohn wrote: »

Lastly, I'm proud to now say I have two operational R2R tape decks in-house - the aforementioned Akai GX-77, and also a Pioneer RT-707. I've put some serious sweat-equity into these, so I have to say it is quite satisfying to have them operational, AND with some quality recordings to play on them

That's great! Enjoy!

BenKlesc

I want to respond to this older thread because reel to reel is one of my obsessions.

I'm weird. I find tape hiss soothing. I can't sleep without a fan blowing either.

Truth be told though, cassette and reel to reel imo are designed to be used with Dolby or DBX. On a properly calibrated system you can get little to no tape hiss and incredible amount of dynamics.

Here is a thing about dynamics though. The faster the tape speed the less dynamic range you need because there will be less distortion. At speeds of 15 IPS on larger 1" or 2" studio tape for example you only need 20dB of dynamic range. Your favorite rock and pop albums from 50's through 80's recorded on consoles that maxed out at 20dB. Classical music you were lucky to reach 30dB on a good day.

It's different at slower speeds. Cassettes need at least 50dB to sound decent. You can get up to 90dB on cassette with noise shaping technologies like Dolby C and the famed DBX.

Now to bring up your circumstance...

I also found a box of about a dozen home-made vintage rock tapes that suit my fancy. My dad did not record these - most likely purchased at a thrift store - but they seem to have been well-recorded on good equipment from good vinyl.

So lot of variables right here. First the tapes are recording another analog medium so you have a generation loss. The imperfections and noise of the recording will be doubled.

Secondly, were the tapes recorded on a machine with a correctly calibrated azimuth and bias? Is your machine correctly calibrated? ​If not that will significantly decrease your signal to noise ratio.

Third, how many times were the tapes played? Every time you play a tape your signal to noise ratio gets worse as it wears down. How many times were the tapes wiped and recorded on? Analog tape gets nosier every time you make a pass over with a new recording. Also when a tape has sat in storage for a long time without being played it can get what is called print through which can amplify the noise. You can eliminate this by fast-forwarding and rewinding three or four times.

Fourth, how worn are your heads on the Akai? The reported specs or abilities of your machine were made when the heads were new. We're talking 50 years of wear at this point. Plus the consumer decks used ferrite heads instead of metal heads which are 10dB nosier.

Reel to reel and even cassettes are a very capable audiophile format under the correct circumstances. On equipment which has been refurbished and correctly calibrated, while recording on and listening to tape which hasn't been played thousands of times. To explain why some tapes can also be nosier than others. Various tapes may have been recorded at different azimuths, which will require you to adjust the azimuth to every tape you are listening to. This is why Nak Dragons were so legendary in the cassette world. Too bad they never had anything like NAAC for reel to reel.