Bass Management in a Small Room

displayname

In my review of my Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo I mentioned some issues with the bass, and it lead to some good discussion of the speakers or the room causing the issue.

Fast forward to now, I have done some basic measurements using my phone and test tones, and found some significant build up in some corners, particularly in the corner labeled as "1" on the images. 50 hz seems like the real problem frequency. Images below with more details. Looking at various options, the GIK Soffit bass trap looks like a good possible tool. Open to other options, but I think at this stage room treatments will make more sense than subs. Easier on the wallet.

One other thing I should add. In these types of discussions someone normally suggests moving furniture, changing the whole layout of the room, etc. Those big changes aren't an option. My wife is already kind enough to allow a dedicated music room, and she signed off on the position of the stereo, record storage, etc. But thechairs are totally open for movement, and they are all on sliders for accommodating more people and making the room more multi purpose.

Room Layout


Some data



The main problem corner

ZLTFUL

displayname wrote: »

Open to other options, but I think at this stage room treatments will make more sense than subs. Easier on the wallet.

Seriously though, room treatments can easily reach and surpass the cost of a pair of decent subs rather quickly.

That being said, corner bass traps are a good place to start. In that #1 corner, I would even go so far as treating the corner by the window and the corner the record shelves make with the wall as 2 corners and treat them both. You are probably noticing it the most there due to reinforcement from the "bump out" that is created there.

My room is similar dimensions at 11.5" wide by 16 deep but there is a bump out for the doorway in the corner #1 location and my bass peaks are primarily in corner #3.

I am fortunate though that my room furniture actually does a good job "treating" the room and the primary listening position is very well balanced.

Because you have the option to make multiple listening positions, that is going to make things a bit harder for you as in a room that size, the peaks and nulls will be small moves out of the sweet spot.

displayname

ZLTFUL wrote: »

displayname wrote: »

Open to other options, but I think at this stage room treatments will make more sense than subs. Easier on the wallet.

Seriously though, room treatments can easily reach and surpass the cost of a pair of decent subs rather quickly.

That being said, corner bass traps are a good place to start. In that #1 corner, I would even go so far as treating the corner by the window and the corner the record shelves make with the wall as 2 corners and treat them both. You are probably noticing it the most there due to reinforcement from the "bump out" that is created there.

My room is similar dimensions at 11.5" wide by 16 deep but there is a bump out for the doorway in the corner #1 location and my bass peaks are primarily in corner #3.

I am fortunate though that my room furniture actually does a good job "treating" the room and the primary listening position is very well balanced.

Because you have the option to make multiple listening positions, that is going to make things a bit harder for you as in a room that size, the peaks and nulls will be small moves out of the sweet spot.

Oh, I'm aware that treatments can end up being a lot more than subs. I'm not going to that extent at this point in life though. If I was ready to put that much in, I'd look at rearranging furniture first. Like if presented the options of "we spent $5K+ on treatments OR we move the records to the back wall." That debate might be worth having. But my wife really was set on the records on the long wall.

I figured I'd start with some type of corner trap. The Soffit would fit nicely, have minimal window blockage, and I could get a color close to the wall color to make them less obtrusive. And at under $500 for a pair, cheaper than most things in this hobby. I also thought about treating the side/corner of the record storage too. Probably a second addition. I figure test one thing at a time and take it slow.

displayname

Also found the Vicoustic Vari Bass Ultra. Looks like another potential solution.

marvda1

borrow a couple of traps from skip to test.

displayname

marvda1 wrote: »

borrow a couple of traps from skip to test.

We've talked about it. He's had his hands full with the new little one, but we'll make it happen soon enough I'm sure.

EndersShadow

@displayname .....

While the iPhone can be used to measure stuff....... I'd recommend looking at REW (free software for your laptop), and using a UMIK-1 (100 dollar USB microphone) to measure.

The graphs in REW can you show you a LOT more than what you are looking at and REALLY help you dial in your setup.

Thorton

+1 to Ender's suggestion. There is a learning curve with REW though. Unless you used it before or know someone that can help you out.

displayname

Good notes for the future. I'm not quite ready to dive that deep into at this point, but I probably will at some point. Right now I'm still very into these speakers, and super happy with the sound overall. Just want to address that big obvious null in the low end. I didn't need any real special measurements to confirm what I was already hearing. I'm well aware that that my method was miles from perfect, I just needed something simple to help narrow down the problem frequency range, and the phone worked perfectly for that.

tratliff

displayname wrote: »

Good notes for the future. I'm not quite ready to dive that deep into at this point, but I probably will at some point. Right now I'm still very into these speakers, and super happy with the sound overall. Just want to address that big obvious null in the low end. I didn't need any real special measurements to confirm what I was already hearing. I'm well aware that that my method was miles from perfect, I just needed something simple to help narrow down the problem frequency range, and the phone worked perfectly for that.

I’ve got the microphone and you are welcome to use it. The REW software is free. So give me a shout if you want to try it. I’m also in North Fort Worth.

displayname

tratliff wrote: »

displayname wrote: »

Good notes for the future. I'm not quite ready to dive that deep into at this point, but I probably will at some point. Right now I'm still very into these speakers, and super happy with the sound overall. Just want to address that big obvious null in the low end. I didn't need any real special measurements to confirm what I was already hearing. I'm well aware that that my method was miles from perfect, I just needed something simple to help narrow down the problem frequency range, and the phone worked perfectly for that.

I’ve got the microphone and you are welcome to use it. The REW software is free. So give me a shout if you want to try it. I’m also in North Fort Worth.

Awesome! I might take you up on that if I have a free weekend soon. Could be a fun project.

Here's a real measurement newb question for the group... what would more detailed measurements feel me that would be easily actionable that I don't already know? I'm sure I have some peaks that can be addressed. I know some listening perfection is compromised already based on room aesthetics (too many glass frame pictures, windows, record rack, etc). If I was building a studio or had zero concern about partner input I would be more into digging deeper, but I'm curious what else I could learn and improve from measurements. I know there is more data to be had, but what do I even do with this information? Especially when I'm already pretty happy with my sound.

tratliff

displayname wrote: »

tratliff wrote: »

displayname wrote: »

Good notes for the future. I'm not quite ready to dive that deep into at this point, but I probably will at some point. Right now I'm still very into these speakers, and super happy with the sound overall. Just want to address that big obvious null in the low end. I didn't need any real special measurements to confirm what I was already hearing. I'm well aware that that my method was miles from perfect, I just needed something simple to help narrow down the problem frequency range, and the phone worked perfectly for that.

I’ve got the microphone and you are welcome to use it. The REW software is free. So give me a shout if you want to try it. I’m also in North Fort Worth.

Awesome! I might take you up on that if I have a free weekend soon. Could be a fun project.

Here's a real measurement newb question for the group... what would more detailed measurements feel me that would be easily actionable that I don't already know? I'm sure I have some peaks that can be addressed. I know some listening perfection is compromised already based on room aesthetics (too many glass frame pictures, windows, record rack, etc). If I was building a studio or had zero concern about partner input I would be more into digging deeper, but I'm curious what else I could learn and improve from measurements. I know there is more data to be had, but what do I even do with this information? Especially when I'm already pretty happy with my sound.

Sounds good. Anytime you would like to try it. And feel free to keep it as long as you need it to diagnose. As long as I get it back.

You can also check out my system that I have struggled with bass management. I currently have a stereo set of RELs.

EndersShadow

displayname wrote: »

Here's a real measurement newb question for the group... what would more detailed measurements feel me that would be easily actionable that I don't already know?

If your speaker location is locked in (i.e. cant be moved due to layout, WAF factors, etc), honestly IMHO not a ton more, however having more detailed information is useful.

If however you can move speakers (or in your case the seats) around a bit, or are looking to incorporate a sub, etc, it can be very helpful in measuring how changes in location affect the main LP response.

It also can be helpful for placing room treatments as again, as you place them you can measure if the response got better, worse, didnt change.

In your case it may help you identify places to locate seats that may not be normally optimal so you can mark them with tape for when its just you, you and one other person, etc, but then you can move them back to the more "friendly setup" for 90% of the time.

Same with room treatments. I know a couple folks have built their own that are "moveable" so they can move them out into the room when listening, then fold/store them out of the way.

Also of note, REW by itself has a "Room Simulator" that tries to show you most of what you were measuring. Might be worth playing around with (its fairly easy to understand how to work that part of REW) to see if it jives with what your measurements were telling you.

VR3

I think your speakers are too far out.

Go to the wall your speakers are placed on, place the back of your head on the wall then talk to your self as you walk slowly forward, you will hear your voice start out bass heavy, then sound normal, then sound lean. You want the drivers to be in this normal zone, based how far out you are now, I think you are in the lean zone.

One thing that helps for me is I keep acoustic panels stored behind the couch, never would know they are there, I pull them out during higher volume sessions then put them back up, make a huge differences

displayname

Did a pretty big room layout change. I'll have to work on new drawings at some point, but the records are now all behind me, speakers are now symmetrical to the room rather than pushed slightly to the right in the room, and CD storage has all moved to the closet.

Interestingly in this new layout, the speakers sound much better pointing directly at the listening position, where as previously the sounded best pointed straight ahead. 50hz is still a clusterfuck, which I expected. Corners 1 and 3 are now my main build up areas. Bass traps will be in the future. I've got the fabric samples from GIK so I'm going to continue to give those some thought before ordering. But Things are getting closer and closer.

Gardenstater

Will reducing bass buildup in the corners (where nobody listens?) have any effect upon the bass response at the listening position? I haven't experimented with this yet in my room except to note that there is definitely positive reinforcement in the corners.

Would adding a sub with Room EQ be a terrible solution, when you adjust it at the listening position?

displayname

Gardenstater wrote: »

Will reducing bass buildup in the corners (where nobody listens?) have any effect upon the bass response at the listening position? I haven't experimented with this yet in my room except to note that there is definitely positive reinforcement in the corners.

Would adding a sub with Room EQ be a terrible solution, when you adjust it at the listening position?

In theory, yes. The idea is that the reflections in the room cause the longer wavelengths to double over and cancel out, causing the null at the listening position.



Subs and Room EQ are also options, and I may explore those in the future as well. I did also try a more detailed analysis using a measurement mic and REW, but honestly it was way over my head and just requires more of a learning curve than I'm ready to take on at the moment. I can pretty simply identify the main issue with my ears, and confirm it with measurements on my phone. Not to say REW can't be a powerful tool, but it would take me some time to get to a point where I understand it well enough to make it actionable.

But yes, lots of ways to address it, so it's choose your own adventure to some extent.

Gardenstater

Thanks. I think one of the problems with standard acoustical treatments is that they don't tend to work really well at preventing reflection of those very low frequencies that you are concerned with. They have to be super thick for that IIRC.

You probably already know this but it seems like the Diaphragmatic type absorbers are the most practical. Here's a site that you can send your data to and they help with determining where they should be placed and what area coverage is needed:

https://www.acousticfields.com/from-room-noise-to-solution/

displayname

Gardenstater wrote: »

Thanks. I think one of the problems with standard acoustical treatments is that they don't tend to work really well at preventing reflection of those very low frequencies that you are concerned with. They have to be super thick for that IIRC.

You probably already know this but it seems like the Diaphragmatic type absorbers are the most practical. Here's a site that you can send your data to and they help with determining where they should be placed and what area coverage is needed:

https://www.acousticfields.com/from-room-noise-to-solution/

I was actually planning to start with a pair of these: https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/