Onks and Oinks

Oldwriter

OK, guys - this is a new thread - picking up from my "old" clipping thread in "speakers." Hope y'all join me - you DO like soap opera, don't you? GRIN
IF you haven't read the latest "Absolute Sound" magazine, please find it at bookstore, library, etc. - and read the review of hi-end and not-so-hi-end speaker cables. It's a hoot - especially when the guy compares $50-a-foot cables with - tah-dah - outdoor extension cord from Home Depot - and finds that the HD cable isn't much different!!! Scratch head here. . .
Anyway - I'm comparing Monster XP (16-gauge) wire with some neat-oh 12-gauge speaker cable from Lowe's. Yep - getting nutzier every day. Will post results - good or ill. Hey - I've gotta do something to keep me out of trouble!!!
The Onkyo 701 is on order - and my wife today said that she's relieved that I'll be getting "quality" gear. Whew!! Close call. . .
More anon - as the SO (soap opera) continues. . . Larry R

I-SIG

Well, I've always thought that interconnects made a much larger difference than the speaker cables and, overall, materials make bigger difference than the wire design itself.

One thing about better speaker cables is that tend to have nice terminations that make connections tons easier. While that's not worth $500 for a 4' pair, I think spending some cash for cables with quality terminations and better materials can be worth the reduction in hassle.

Wes

Oldwriter

Hi, Wes - you are very correct, and that's why I use nothing but gold banana plugs at each end of my speaker cables, and good-quality connects for the other wires.
Thanks for the input - my wife and I moved here to Naples from Sedona, AZ just under two years ago. S is a beautiful, but dull town, and part of the move had to do with my wife's aging parents, who live here in Florida.
Obviously, I'll never come up to your level of audiophile gear, so I won't even try - but I do the bestest I kan wid wat I gott. GRIN
Thanks for the posting - Larry R

PolkWannabie

As wire goes this isn't horrible either and not horribly expensive ...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=100-157

and can be gotten in 250' rolls if needed.

Beyond that it's a fairly simple matter to afix ones own choice of bananas or spades.

IMHO 16 gauge is pushing it on the thin side but to each his own.

Oldwriter

Yo - Rick - thanks for jumping onto the new thread. Yep - I've just been talking with my recording-engineer friend out in LA, and he (in his caustic way) told me I was **** to be using any 16 stuff, Monster or otherwise. Sigh. He uses nothing but 12-gauge wire - and laughed out loud when I told him about The Absolute Sound comparison. He'll read it, then call me.
Welcome - and stay tuned!!! Larry R

PolkWannabie

With regards to the coming Onk ...

As I stated elsewhere, I have an 801 that I use in a different set up in the house.

It like the 701 is fine for what it is and will drive speakers significantly more difficult than the 6's you have.

When driving more demanding speakers a better set up would be to use the Onk as a preamp and add a separate two or multichannel amp ... a step up from there would be to replace the Onk with a dedicated preamp.

I agree with Wes in that as long as your speaker wires are not choking the electrons going to the speakers that the quality of the interconnects are more important.

Oldwriter

OH (grin) Will be polishing up my gold plugs - then doing an A-B comparison with the Great Bargain (?) Lowe's 12-gauge and the kitten-fine 16-gauge Monster XP (I suspect it's overpriced and over-rated?) Will post results this evening. Larry R

reeltrouble1

Electrons?? Naw that is not how it works, their are little tiny dancing musical notes moving down those wires and if they are not thick enough the notes forget what line of the staff they are supoosed to be on and go flat.

Oldwriter, I read about half of the other thread, a very good one, but my boss actually wants to me work so I had to move on will finish later.

You remind some of my new beginining in audio, after years with a Kenwood, then Technics, I went for an Onk, the TX-DS787 and starting buying polk speakers, two years later I have dropped thousands more and am only beginning to find audio heaven. That is not to say anyone has to spend alot of dough to have a nice sounding system, you can put together a great system for very resonable costs if you are patient.

The Onk will get you off on a fine beginning, if you catch the bug, and I am thinking you are just on the cusp make sure you look at the tremendous amount of quality used gear.

Wires and cables you could read for hours here on different threads, it is a matter of choice totally subjective. Got to tell you though if I could afford those 10,000 dollar wires I would buy them, but that is the fun of this hobby, upgrading, tweaking, and learning, most of all though just getting lost in the music;) .

Enjoy your new gear I still like my Onk and am using it for a pre/pro they do a terrific job on HT for music I personally like the "Direct" mode they offer.

Signal Cable, BlueJeans Cable and Cobalt Cable all offer connects at reasonable prices. Mention Club Polk to Frank and Signal and you get a little discount.

Good luck with your wire shootout.

RT1--Out

tonyv1

I use Caig ProGold on my connections helps prevent problems with oxidation.

Oldwriter

Yo - Polk Folk with really wunnerful call names! Hmmm. . . Perhaps I should NOT have written down "oldwriter" for mine, 'cause my wife says it makes me sound ancient. Nope - just high in numbers on the calendar, dat's all!
OK - got the "doggie" Kenwood all suited up with new cables, and brought in the wife - whose ears are much better than mine, especially nuances in sound and musicality.
On went the 12-gauge "Lowe's" wires. Put on one of my "reference" CDs - Mozart concertos with Vladimir Ashkenazy and Philharmonia Orchestra - no, not the greatest recording, but one of my favorites - have heard it many hundreds of times, so I know it well.
First pass - well, I'm hearing a fuller sound - much better low register, even at very low volume. Wife agrees heartily.
Second pass - with 16-gauge XP Monster cables. Hmmm. . . wife says it sounds like the speakers are "strangled." Pretty accurate, if not scientific. GRIN
Third pass - 12-gauge again. Now we're more sure that the speakers sound more natural and full-bodied.
Fourth pass - 16-gauge MC again. We finally agree that those cables don't cut it. We turn to other tests.
DVD - "Master and Commander." Yes, even without a subwoofer, the sound on this is awesome! Having been at sea and in storms, I know whereof I speak.
First pass - Monster cables. Very good, but the wife says it sounds a bit "thin."
Second pass - 12-gauge. "Now, that's more like the sea!" says the wife - who knows, having been "terminally" seasick on our ill-fated Island Packet yacht in 1998. Sigh.
Third pass - 16-gauge. OK - the battle scenes are fine, but not "full." We agree.
Fourth pass - 12-gauge. Now we're sure - the cables ARE different. BUT WE NEED A SUBWOOFER BADLY!!!!!!!!!
OK - that's it for now - the 12-gauge are in place, and the speakers sound better - EXCEPT - when we play strings or vocals at higher volume - still get that ragged distortion - which, we hope, will disappear when the ONKYO 701 appears!
More anon - and thanks for "listening." Larry R

PolkWannabie

I said choked ... you say strangled ... same diff ...

Are the $1000 / foot cables better ? ... probably ... but this is a game of fix the weak link ... at this point it's not the thicker cables ...

scottnbnj

hmmmm,.. now i wonder what it would sound like bi-wired with that xp to the highs and the lowe's to the lows.

)

Oldwriter

Youze guyz are too much! The minute I think I unnerstand one thing, you throw another tomato at me! Hmmm. . . OK - this speaker set is my first with "bi-wire capability," so I had to read up on it. Not sure it makes any difference, but anything's possible, I guess.
Choked - strangled - yep - my wife says that's what she hears. How do I argue with THAT? NOT.
The Onkyo 701 is in the air - FedEx says so. Probably be here (almost typed "hear" - snicker) Monday. Maybe.
A long weekend coming up. . . meanwhile, no more testing until the new amp gets here. But we will re-play Master & Commander tonight - and bring out our old shipwreck pictures to remind us to stay on land - firm land! GRIN More anon - Larry R

PolkWannabie

With SOME speakers and SOME amplifiers, biamping MIGHT be of value. Forget the biwiring ... build your own jumpers out of the same cable that you like with your own bananas/spades and replace the stock flat jumpers ...

Oldwriter

Kill the golden goose, er, jumpers? Please tell me more about that. I thought the gold-plated, well, plates from Polk would be fine, but - as usual - y'all know much more than I do. Give me some hints as to why you say to replace the plates with my 12-gauge wire. Thanx - Larry R

PolkWannabie

For the same reason you like the 12 gauge better than the 16 gauge wire ...

Oldwriter

Well, Rick, I guess I'll have to go "another round" this weekend and "cut and solder" some jumpers - will have to use screw-down connectors, as banana plugs fill the other connections. If I'm using bare-wire connections I always "melt in" solder so that I'm not losing wires to the universe (or the floor). But then, maybe you'll tell me that's wrong, too! GRIN Thanx - LR

PolkWannabie

One way to use connectors in a situation like this is to have spades on the ends of wires coming from the amp and then bananas on both ends of the jumpers or switch one set of bananas to the wires coming from the amp and then have the jumpers terminated in spades for the same terminal.

Willow

or you can like I have for now use nana plugs in the upper posts and I have bare wire done with 12awg and heat shrink as jumpers no spades or plugs

reeltrouble1

Its another shootout Bi-wire to wire jumpers, I am biwired, well kinda but thats another thread. It all has to do with crossover and getting the signal to the correct driver, anyway, we pretty much all agree the metal gold jumpers need to go either way.

Jumpers, take some of your 12 guage, put some banana's on each end, or you can go bare wire on one or both ends if you choose. Then sit back and see what you think, is their not a difference?

Bi-wire, connect both positives and negatives to their own banana and connect to receiver, on speaker end each positive and negative get their own banana and connect to correct speaker binding post one to each upper and lower post or again you can go bare wire, just get the wires right do not connect positive to negative but I think you already know this, also make sure you remove the jumper or your going to fry things. Run the 12 ga to your lower posts and the 16 ga to the uppers.

See what you like, many here bi-wire, remember what is important is how it sounds to you, not me. I would not go out and spend alot of dough on wire right out of the box, get to know what you have, like the CD you have listened to many many times.

Oldwriter

Yo - thanks to all of you! OK - here's a question that I HOPE does not insult anybody. Have you ALL removed the gold jumper plates from your speakers? If not - why not? As a good - if former - reporter, "inquiring minds want to know."
Sigh - I'll get it all right yet. THANX - Larry R

bikezappa

Hi Larry

I have followed and enjoyed your present and past posts. Were you a writer in your past life?

I bet you had Ar equipment way back. And if you lived in New England you may have visited the free "no sales here" Ar listening room in the 60's in Harvard Square in Cambridge.

I, like you, have tried to eliminate that rasp from female voices for all my life with records. It's better but still there with CD's. The quest. Malher II and IV were my test.

A suggestion, try renting the movie Aria. 10 directors, 10 arias, WOW.

I have no help with wires except to buy cheap fat gauge. I like Home Depot.

Have a blast.

Peter

scottnbnj

Originally posted by PolkWannabie
With SOME speakers and SOME amplifiers, biamping MIGHT be of value. Forget the biwiring ...

uh,.. i'd say it don't hurt to try either. neither the lowe's nor the xp are overly large pipes, larry has the wires in house, cut to length and terminated,.. sitting there doing nothing.

w/ lsi9/carver receiver i heard an immediate and substantial meaty difference going from single acoustic research 16 gauge oxygen free to bi-wire w/ the same wire,.. admitted, different gear, but, lots of other folks say they hear a difference and, both, larry and his wife have already demonstrated, not only an interest but, an *ability* to hear differences in wire tweaks.

maybe with their gear they won't hear anything except grumbling for having to pull all the gear out again,.. but you're really going to tell them to not even try?

)

Oldwriter

Yo - Peter - wow, sounds like you and I have some stuff in common! Yes, I was fine arts reporter for the Chicago Tribune stations and for CNN until I retired in 1991. Been down the road a few miles, as they say.
We've got very good friends who have a "farmette" near Washington, NH - and we visit them there every summer.
Well - Mahler is ALWAYS good (if recorded correctly) and yes, I had an AR-1 and other such gear way, way back in my youth. Still love that company! Keep the postings coming.
With thanks - Larry R

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
It all has to do with crossover and getting the signal to the correct driver

This particular discussion path we've been down before.

In biamping it is possible to limit the amplification of the signal to specific frquency ranges i.e. tailoring them for the drivers they're destined to go to.

In biwiring however there are no such options to confine the amplification to specific frequency ranges as unfortunately amps and amp sections of receivers just aren't smart enough to send only a specific frequency range down a particular set of wires. So the only possible pluses in biwiring are

- The result of the added total thickness of the wire
- That for some set of drivers the signal may be bypassing the crossover.

The plus resulting from increased total wire thickness can be obtained by using thicker wires to begin with.

The plus, if there is one, from bypassing a crossover is not one that can be obtained in another fashion.

VR3

I have 12 and 16 awg...

I cant hear a bit of difference honestly...

Oldwriter

Well, we've all discovered that we all agree to disagree - and how fine that is! For me and my wife, we CAN hear the difference between 16 and 12 wire - at least in our rig.
As for bi-wiring - well, I'm going to set up an alternate set of jumpers, to see if it makes any difference. But not until my new and sure-to-be-wunnerful Onkyo gets here.
Until then, fine folks, yer olde scribe waits and sees - and, as Forrest Gump would say: "That's all I have to say about THAT!"
Will post more as soon as amp gets installed - until then, will, of course, happily answer any and all postings. Youze guyz sure do know how to improve the lifestyle of folk who are exiled in SW Florrid-Uh! GRIN Thanks to all, and more to come. . LR

scottnbnj

Originally posted by Oldwriter
Have you ALL removed the gold jumper plates from your speakers? If not - why not?

i didn't bother to replace the jumper. i knew i didn't like it(i think i told the story in this thread already) and it was going to go. the ar 16 gauge would eventually go too but probably didn't supply enough food now. the carver is going too but i thought it would make more sense to mate serious wires with the new gear. so the next best cheap solution seemed to be add another run of oxygen free ar.

so, for whether the bi-wiring benefit is all in the replacing of the jumper or in the larger pipe, i can't say. i just know it's substantially better than one run of 16 gauge oxygen free wire with the jumper.

)

PolkWannabie

Friends I have that live there quite often refer to it as ... Flaw Duh ...

gregure

I would first like to say how impressed I am with how Larry's threads have been taking off. What an amazing turnout of people so willing to be helpful and friendly. I can't think of any other forum in which I've seen such display of generosity. That said, I'd like to mention that I just got my Silver Serpent Digital Coax from Better Cables today, and it is markedly better than the $50 monster cable coax I had. Detail is sharper, and the sound overall is just richer. Played Beethoven's 5th, the new SACD remastered Karajan version, and it sounded spectacular. Also played the prologue to Fellowship of the Ring and was astounded all over again by the sheer force of sound in that opening battle sequence. For $80 it was well worth it.
As for those who mentioned Mahler--ah, some more people close to my own heart. I'm a huge Mahler fan, and I too use the second symphony as a sound tester, especially for bass. I use Mehta's recording with the Vienna Phil on Decca, remastered for the Legends label. The organ finale is very sepulchral indeed. Christa Ludwig's voice never sounded so good in the 4th Lieder movement. Haitink's Berlin Phil recording is also very good, but I have to say overall I like the Mehta, lots of atmosphere, and on one mid-priced CD you just can't beat the price. As for cables, I use better cables premium II with bi-wired ends for mains and center, and I noticed a huge difference there as well. I think bi-wiring is a bit better than a cable jumper. For me, the sound seems more open and separated. I think I'm finally done with upgrades, for awhile anyway. Glad to hear things are looking up for your system Larry. I'm curious to see how the 701 performs for you.
Greg

Toxis

Thicker cables always help IMO. My old roommate used to have some Polk RT600 towers and they were good for the money. We started with Monster XP and was happy. Moved to MC 12awg and they opened up and said "Hello!" Finally moved to Z2 cable and they opened up and slapped us with some amazing midbass capabilities. I will ALWAYS be a fan of bigger speaker wire. Why suppress the signal going to your speakers (unless you have small satellites that can't play a midbass signal).