Sad puppy...do I need to downgrade from my LSIs?

francis1967

Have I made a mistake here?

Sold my Harman Signature 2.0 and amp and instead I bought a flagship Denon AVR-5700 with 6x140w and BurrBrowns on every channel etc etc blah blah. Why you ask? Price..got a great price for my Sig 2.0, I needed the money and found a super deal on the Denon 5700. Besides, I heard a lot of good things about this Denon, in spite of being an AVR.

Only, now my LSIs sound dull and boring...loss of life in every aspect in 2-channel listening, even when played in direct mode. I have the Toshiba SD-9100 which really plays a CD well for being a DVD player. But even in HT while watching a movie here today, the whole LSI setup sounded more flat and slightly veiled. The LSI-C is a mere shadow of its former self.

I have good wires all around (DYI higher end stuff).

I just don't understand....this is Denon's highly acclaimed top-of-the-line $2500 receiver and only surpassed by their slightly newer 5800 models. Noticed some of you have Denons, so I ask you...are receivers really THAT different from separates. Power with this Denon is a non-issue...it's got plenty. What Polks would go better then with the 5700 or should I just throw it out the window and start looking for another HK Sig 2.0 with amp? I can't really afford that either. Any good suggestions?

Just can't believe the LSIs would hurt so badly from changing the backend to perhaps the greatest AVR to come out of Japan.

Sad indeed.....

madmax

I don't know much about receivers and which speakers they work well with but... I've noticed that synergy between components is much more important than any given specs. I use seperates for everything in my 2 channel setup and have tried many different components. Many times I have upgraded an amp, a speaker or a CD player only to find that it sounds worse. Then later find that the lesser sounding upgrade sounded better than the original after upgrading another component. You have to try different setups and let your ears make the choices.

But, read the manual, check all you settings and all that. Maybe you have something set somewhere which is not optimum.

Good luck!
madmax

pjdami

francis,

Most of us the have LSi use Outlaw, NAD, Rotel, B&K, or Parasound to power the LSi. Madmax talks about synergy which is very important.

I have experience with LSi and Rotel, NAD, and B&K. All of which run the LSI very well.

As far as the Denon goes, send Mantis a PM; he knows that receiver and if it can run the LSi.

Good luck,
Paul

radkrisdoc

Loss of life is right I agree with you on that. I have had a similar experience with a Denon receiver with some nice british speakers. They sound thin. Change the amp and voila! the life comes back! I auditioned the LSi15's yesterday and I felt the same phenomenon happen again. Probably would be correct to sell the Denon and replace it with a nice amp. Or try replacing it with another receiver like h/k or onkyo. That may work, but the "ideal" way to go would be separate amps. Good luck on that and keep us posted on what you do. Kris

Toxis

Well it's a given that seperates will sound better than an AVR, but I'm kinda surprised it'd be THAT big of a difference. I am purchasing the LSI15's with a Denon 3805 receiver soon only because I don't have the money for seperates currently, but when I do I'm getting Rotel most likely. I personally think the Denon is the best sounding receiver on the market. Onkyo seems to be a little bright and HK doesn't seem to have the depth. I sell all three at the retailer that I work for and am personally going towards Denon.

cdubya

I find this strange also, perhaps it comes down to personal taste? I have the equivalent denon avr (badged avc-a1sr in nz), and rti100's and couldnt be happier. I have heard the lsi15s and lsi25s and couldnt justify the performance to dollar increase over the rti100. But in saying that was in no way unhappy with them either, it came down to cost in the end, what with center rears etc. I previously owned the Onkyo txds939 and imho it doesnt come close in any department, in fact the only thing it beat the den on was the intelligent power management feature. Like i say i cant believe you find it so bad. Is it the current model or a little bit older model, the one i have is 7x170, thx ultra, ex etc.

mantis

I'll post it here what happens to Denon avr even the top of the line models when tring to drive 4 ohm load speakers.

the Denon AVRs can't keep dynamic range in place when driving 4 ohm load speakers.they can drive them but at the expense of Dynamic range.Again loss of Dynamic range.8 ohm load and easy to drive speakers shine nicely on these types of receivers.

When driving speakers of higher quality like the Lsi series,current not watts is what you need.You need a high current Receiver like the Rotel rsx1065 or the new one rsx1067,B&K avr307 or 507.These receiver can run the lsi series with plenty of current to drive them.They will sound much better on these types of receivers.

Most receveivers on the market your going to have the same problems that the Denons have.Most of them have 15 amps or less per channel.Tipically you find 5 to 7 amps.As an example of the difference,the Denon flagship avr5803 has 15 amps of current per channel,The B&K avr307 has 42 amps amp per channel.The higher the amp drive the most power you have.Watts is sometimes if not all the time a number game manufactors play.I could get all into that but I feel this is enough Info to figure out if your receiver is up to the LSI task.

My opnion is to use B&K or Rotel.I know for a fact there good to go.Outlaw and NAD can also do it but I'm not a personal fan of those comapnies.Personal choice comes into play here.You can also look into the Sunfire Ultimate receiver.It has plenty of current to drive the LSI series.

Good luck and last point is if the avr5700 is your cup of tea,adding amps will be whats needed to run the Lis series and get rid of the lack of dynamic range.

Dr. Spec

the Denon flagship avr5803 has 15 amps of current per channel

Even that's optimistic. With one channel driven - yes. But with all channels driven - not a chance. Place a heavy dynamic load and I agree, available current in any given channel will drop into the 5 amp range.

The LSi impedance curve is very reactive. It dips below 3 ohms in at least one spot. It will suck the life out of typical AVR amps.

Denon has some of the best pre/pro front ends in the business. Add some external amps and you're good to go with any LSi.

cfrizz

You have an excellent receiver & excellent speakers. Just add a separate amplifier and enjoy.

francis1967

So if I understand correctly: use the 5700 as preamp/pro and perhaps drive the rears and perhaps the center channel and then use the pre-outs into ext. amps as mentioned to drive the mains which would also be used for 2channel music listening?

Would a highpowered amp at about 80watts be ok for the LSI9s if it can punch 60-70amps? Thank you very much for your advice. I know some older H/Ks are actually pretty decent and at a give'away pricelevel these days. Thanks.

Btw. Have some new LSI7s here and they sound like crap out of the box. How many hours is normal break-in time on these? I assume that is all they need, a little breakin.

trend1

francis1967, Add a couple Outlaw 200w M-Blocks to your setup! It made a big difference in my system...if it doesn't work out you have a 30 day no questions asked return policy.

Tony

LuSh

I keep on suggesting this too people, but nobody seems to listen. Consider a nice intergrated amp that has a home theater by-pass on it. It will allow you to power the fronts for HT, then still use the Preamp-amp section of the intergrated amp for 2 channel. The Denon would only be used as a gain control for the front two channels.

A used Musical Fidelity, Classe', SimAudio, Rotel, Bryston can be found at www.canuckaudiomart.ca or www.audiogon.com

This is the way I intended to do it when I consider home theater down the road. The SimAudio I use has HT by pass. And musically it is lightyears ahead of stuff from B&K, Carver, Outlaw. Remember the preamp section is as important as the actual amp section.

scottnbnj

Originally posted by francis1967
Btw. Have some new LSI7s here and they sound like crap out of the box. How many hours is normal break-in time on these? I assume that is all they need, a little breakin.

i've been working lsi9's for over a month and i think they're still not done. i've noticed more distinct changes after driving them hard.

i would imagine that folks who really pour it on with stuff like, say,.. oh,.. ummm,.. def leppard g.h. vault early and often would break them pretty quickly. if you don't drive them that hard it will take longer.

if you have reference music with wide dynamic heavily populated soundstages with intricate detail, gravelly vocals and lower notes with lots of edges and character that you're familiar with(to the point that you don't think there's anything you haven't heard in there before), listen to them often throughout the process. you'll probably notice changes after really airing them out on other harder driving stuff. for instance, dire straits, love over gold is one i still hear evolving and resolving.

once you identify the music that you're hearing fine changes with(beyond the huffvring), i'd guess you've found some sort of indicator for how done they are.

)

cmy330go

Sorry to hear of your dissatisfaction with the 5700. I can't say that I have had any experience with that model, but I can say that I have heard anything from a 1603 to a 5803 on the LSi's and felt that all of them did well for what they were. I personally have a 4802 and have been very satisfied with it. I also have a yamaha RXV2400 and am quite impressed with it. The yamaha has a much more lively sound and may be a little more to your tastes. whereas the denon sounds much more mellow. If you have the ability I would suggest trying out either the yamaha RX-V1400 ($799) or the RX-V2400 ($999). Both of these are very impresive receivers and would also make a GREAT budget pre/pro if you ever get back into seperates.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Best of luck
Dave