Rings,Don't have to be Larry's,similar would be nice.

xfactor

"Xschop"-
I have thought about doing that using a Kevlar/Carbon fabric and simply replacing the cone originally installed. And closely matching the original media's numbers. But have never really studied that "aspect" of a point-source transducer enough to be comfortable in doing so . And I have been working with Magnetic Planars almost exclusively for quite a while. Which puts me in a very different frame of thought.
Until now.
But that is my understanding of what (As an example), "B & W" does in a nutshell. Other than a few offerings from, "Wilson Audio" they are the finest sounding, "Point source" speakers I have ever heard. Having said that, you must realize that the ONLY speaker they have ever made which qualifies to that level is the (800-Diamond) series. One step below that particular model? To me in what "I" have found in my work relegates everything below the "800-D" to just another speaker..
"IMHO".
The differences were just that large and very apparent when listening. Even when listening to them for the very first time on moderately priced but still solidly, well designed/built gear and a decent source material.
Simply "adding" a layer of the CF over any existing medium will have limited "very", effectivness "If any", and quite possibly add many more detrimental effects. Once you really begin to think about it. "Just the difference in (moving mass) changes the equasions to where you will easily see this".
But it is definitely a direction "IMHO", which needs a much deeper look into.
Think about utilizing some of the more recent offerings in materials as well to add to the CF fabrics. If it can be formed as a "Powder", Spun into a fiber or even "sprayed" as a coating? The mechanical properties of that material can be used to benefit the finished system.
I do this all the time (And NEVER stop thinking about this), while developing a better diaphram archetecture for my Mag-Planars.
"Layering (can) be good".

xschop

I meant peeling off old delaminated layer and adding new CF skin.

xfactor

YUP, That will work but a bit difficult to do. Keeping the resin "flat", At any given angle matching the cone in a radial configuraion (Until it reaches the Gel state) is the problem. I was thinking of using an existing transducer with a, "Flat" wave forming surface instead of a cone to try this. I purchased a case of these, (10") From Dayton that have been waiting for me.
Notice the "Philips Head" screws on the rear of the basket to easily seperate the components and make modifications to that surface and also the voice coil and etc. easier. (I hope).
Also- The rough surface currently there, "Both sides" is not very conducive to the results I am after either. But I feel this may be a good place to start.
The damned thing is built like a (Mac Truck) though!

xschop

Not going to fib, was about to get an 8" pair of CF PRs for the 5Bs, but was able to repair the spider material.where it separated.

audioluvr

xschop wrote: »

Not going to fib, was about to get an 8" pair of CF PRs for the 5Bs, but was able to repair the spider material.where it separated.

Honesty. I like that. Okay I have respect for you again!

xschop

Had no idea I had lost it. I need to tune-up my snowflake radar.

JayCee

Not sure Rob will see this, as he's taken up camp on Audiomalitia, but posting in both spots....

Update....

ABSOLUTELY AGREE...drums, bass, etc are tighter after installing these new rings. Larry's are very good....these are very, very, very good.

Dirty details.......

Had to do some car battery maintenance and have leftover black primer that converts rust to a paintable surface. Liked the results and thought it would work w/the rings. Turned out great and will protect w/o final paint coat. Just insurance against future rust.

I had Larry's rings installed, removed/will repurpose, and the original install required drilling holes for the posts. As a result, I have a wider passthrough to consider. As noted before, there's a bit of compression and a dip when max torque is applied so I came up with these to remedy the washer bow and also provide a solid surface for the screw/MW mating area. The nut I chose had compatible threads but I found $crewing (yup, Vanilla blocked s crewing) into them and then into the ring caused the rivet nut to mushroom from having two sets of threads. I used a drill bit and eliminated the threads on the rivet nut, effectively creating a riveted pass through.



Think I've all but eliminated it. Worked so well that I'd recommend doing this even if not retrofitting from the other style rings.


Using a washer, mounting bolt and cordless drill w/clutch I was able to just countersink the rivet nut so it's flush with the cabinet when installing the rings. Also, Powergrabbed the rings as recommended.


I made gaskets from Armaflex back in 2011ish when I installed the 198's and came across the template I created to cut them. I have no idea why I marked it L/R???

The MW gaskets are still original but almost look like glue on the MW basket....so compressed that they're part of it. In reference to your gasket thread, Rob, I wouldn't hesitate using Armaflex again. When I replaced the tweeter bezels a few weeks ago I noted the Armaflex was as pliable as 10 years ago and I have torqued them to bottoming out...ie., max compression. No doubt they are wafer thin using the new bezels and Larry's tweeter rings.

invalid

What if you used power grab and fastened Larry's rings, would the new ring still be better?

JayCee

invalid wrote: »

What if you used power grab and fastened Larry's rings, would the new ring still be better?

Yes. The new ones are substantially more metal, thicker, wider, and, based on Rob's intent, designed to not only couple the driver but act as support/bracing across the baffle. They differ in that they aren't a complete circle, but cover the top and bottom screw sets. Larry's do a great job of coupling but, IMO, don't provide the same level w/respect to bracing.

I've had Larry's since first offered and they do make a positive difference but I believe the latest, even more-so in my 1.2tl's. I also speculate the bigger speakers will see more gain as a result of covering much more real estate/drivers....cumulatively adding up.

Gardenstater

@JayCee great idea and way forward for those who have installed Larry's Rings. Good thing you hadn't glued them in I guess heh heh. What would you have done if that were the case? Would you drill out the Larry's Rings and add the Rob's Rings to them? I can see from your typically excellent photos that you did indeed get the rivetnut heads flush to the rabbet and that should definitely harden the hole area from becoming indented so I think that's awesome. You just used the rivetnuts as a hole liner and you didn't at any point actually use the rivetgun tool on them to compress them right? I only ask because you said that you essentially ended up with a "riveted pass through" or something to that effect. Nice work. I'm anxiously awaiting my Rob's Rings when the phase plugs are finished .

JayCee

Gardenstater wrote: »

@JayCee great idea and way forward for those who have installed Larry's Rings.

Thank you.

Gardenstater wrote: »

Good thing you hadn't glued them in...What would you have done if that were the case? Would you drill out the Larry's Rings and add the Rob's Rings to them?

Probably wouldn't have risked mucking up the cabinets. Even w/Rob's rings there was the pucker factor that this was pretty much irreversible once the Powergrab was applied. Decided to because I was comfortable enough that it would provide at least the same as Larry's rings.

Gardenstater wrote: »

You just used the rivetnuts as a hole liner and you didn't at any point actually use the rivetgun tool on them to compress them right?...you essentially ended up with a "riveted pass through" or something to that effect.

Correct. TBH, I took one of Larry's rings to a local contractor's supply store that has great selection and is priced cheaper than the box stores. Told the guy I wanted something w/the barrel OD/ID and a lip to mate flush w/the cabinet to prevent tearout/compression/deformation where the bolts pass through the baffle. Also believed threaded would give me more for the bolt to mate with. He came back w/what you see. When I placed the first 4 nuts in the cabinet and torqued the driver down I couldn't get it to sit flush. Hard to thread 2 sets of inner threads together on different parts as they end up working against each other. At that point I realized the threads weren't needed in the rivet nut and I just drilled them out. In hindsight, I'd look for something like a barrel insert? There's probably something out there that has the correct OD/ID and isn't threaded and/or a rivet.

Also, I even flipped Larry's rings to the outside and thought I might use both his and Rob's in combo. Not a crazy idea and think it would've actually been more of more...but the thickness of Larry's rings is enough to place the drivers above the plane of the baffle and probably not good for sound.

BlueBirdMusic

@JayCee you brought the entire thread to a nice point.

Does Rob plan to make those rings for sale on the forum?

JayCee

Thank you. I believe he is, at a later date, but you'll have to find him over @ Audiomalitia and ask.

Gardenstater

JayCee wrote: »

Also, I even flipped Larry's rings to the outside and thought I might use both his and Rob's in combo. Not a crazy idea and think it would've actually been more of more...but the thickness of Larry's rings is enough to place the drivers above the plane of the baffle and probably not good for sound.

Not a bad idea at all, especially if they were epoxied in. What is the thickness of Larrry's Rings? Your basket flange would protrude but not as much as on my early 7B's where there isn't even any rabbet for either the MW or the passive. The anti-diffraction wool rings that Trey is making take care of any problem from that. I asked him to make me one that was 8" so part of it is between the flange and the surround (I beveled 45deg with scissors) and it extends about 3/4" past the flange on the outside. He made grooves in the wool with the laser to allow the flange to recess better and recesses for the screw heads. I'll see if I can find the picture I took.

Here it is:

JayCee

Your 7's look nice and I'm sure, sound great. Larry's rings are stored and I'd have to get out my calipers to measure but it's not huge. Maybe 1/16" or slightly over?

In comparison to your 7's and my SDA experience.....

I have the felts, too. I spent many days listening on/off, w/different combinations and found, for the 1.2tl's, all but the top 2 drivers was the best combination. W/the top 2 in there's a roll off in female voices which become muted. Specific example is a texture to Bonnie Raitt's vocals that really stands out. Male voices are fine.

Also found that when the felts were installed w/out securing (for ease of testing) they sometimes came forward, as a result of gravity/fit, and the sound was a bit muted. I took a roll of the hook only portion of Velcro and created strips to go between the rubber surround and tiny gap moving toward the frame. Sameish concept on the tweeter's, too.

Much better than the dots and it's extremely uniform and as low/flat/parallel to the cabinet as I could get it. Per my usual bias, hit the felts w/more of the infamous black paint. Aesthetic, only, but I like a more subdued look. Wife agreed and she really has no WAF opinion, just very supportive, and gives an honest take.

Trey mentioned your design as I was giving him feedback. Because of the testing w/various combos and the affect on each, 2 felts thru all installed, SDA array only, stereo array only, etc., I found a perfect blend. I'm convinced the SDA's may react differently than a conventional speaker because of the myriad of frequency ranges w/a respective driver and, in particular, the SDA band. I've also speculated that the cabinet face is part of the speaker's overall design and mucking w/it too much throws things off. Thus, my aversion to the driver rims protruding above the plane of the speaker.

I have a pair of 5A's w/peerless but they're in a cheapish Sony/TV setup that rarely gets used. W/the leftover felt's I'm not using on the top drivers I could test out on the 5's. However, not high on the list of projects I'm supposed to be working on that became sidelined as a result of the above.

I'm curious for Trey's take when he has Ptrooper's build complete and he does listening tests. The XO's will be in a different league (Dueland build) but still think it relevant to refine, if needed, the felt concept on the big boys using his trusted ears.

I can honestly say my speakers are in a different league compared to 2 months ago...with the addition of Rob's tweeter bezels, MW rings and Trey's felts on top of the existing Sonicap/uber inductor mods I did 10 years ago. The refinement, realism, and even more-so, depth in soundstage has shocked me. I was really happy where I sat last month...now, I'm over the moon. Had no idea there was still juice in the tank, so to speak. Last to do is upgrade the internal wiring and maybe an SDA inductor comparison based on Trey's recommendation. Then, I'll finally be done............until someone proves me wrong, again. Never say never!

Edit...I HATE that the preview function is not working!!!!

BlueBirdMusic

JayCee, for a temporary "Preview" function write a private message to yourself, especially when creating long posts as you just have done.

Gardenstater

@JayCee Nice job with the small velcro strips. I agree that more is better. I put mine on the outside of my MW basket flange but will probably add to the inside like you did. I think the baffle most definitely does affect the sound of your 1.2tl's, just like it does my 7B's. Probably adds volume, due to the reflections and diffractions but they are time delayed and there is positive and negative interferences that muck up the clarity of the sound. Just my opinion from the reading I have done so far. The Dunlavy patent goes into it pretty well.

JayCee

Gardenstater wrote: »

...small velcro strips...will probably add to the inside like you did.

Just a heads up but it's a bit of a PITA to cut. Won't be for you as there's much less to cover but for 16 drivers + the 2 tweeter arrays....well. I used scissors and had to clean off the adhesive quite often.

Gardenstater

I posted my 3 day saga over at the *other* Club Polk and this seems a little schizophrenic but I'm going to just copy and paste it over to here. The short synopsis is that Rob's Rings were a game changer. Far above what dynamatting did for the impact and tightness and I think the Monitor 7 definitely has a weak spot in the baffle, due to the width, that this helped to correct. Most likely even more of a problem in the Monitor 10. Congrats xschop! I modified mine mostly because I always have to change things. I do not know if it made any improvement or not, so I just have to make that clear that it is probably not necessary in the least.

May 7, 2021 at 6:56am
I'm working on installing mine in the 7B's today and pretty excited. I don't think it is necessary by any means, but since mine are the early 7B's and don't have a rabbet for the MW (or Passive), I'm grinding a 45deg bevel on the inside edge except for about 1.5" at the ends. Just my OCD and probably not needed. I think I'll cut off the extemporaneous tabs that protrude into the basket windows as well. I also made some square washers on my Taig Micro Lathe w/ Milling Attachment for between the screw heads and the basket frames. 1/8" thick steel and provides almost 3x the surface contact area which should allow significantly more torque to be applied. I don't really know if others would be interested in these. I'd do a run of 1,000 or so with black oxide coating if people are. Oh and almost forgot...I found some Grade 8 socket head button head black oxide screws 8-32 x 1-1/4" long that should work nicely.

May 8, 8:50am
I did the R speaker yesterday and will do L today. I oriented them horizontally and JB Weld epoxy was used so these are permanent lol. I threw caution to the wind and didn't paint them ha ha. It's always a little weird when you do a mod to one side and it sounds unbalanced afterwards, but informative nonetheless. This is somewhere between subtle and huge but the R is noticeably cleaner, leaner, and more impactful. When I place my fingertips lightly on the baffle between the MW and the Passive, there is noticeably less vibration on the R vs L. My square washers worked nicely and I would recommend this for sure. Even with the square washers, you can still torque the screws to the point where there is less compression of gasket at midpoint between screws which is the worse case location, so there is no doubt that limiting factor is the stiffness of the basket flange. At least the basket flange is not distorted under the heads of the screw heads this way, or so I believe. 4 more screw locations would be awesome. I notched out Trey's wool felt anti-diffraction rings for the washers/button heads. Anyways, I love it when a plan comes together! Thanks Rob! Recommended mod.

May 9, 5pm
Wow! Well getting it balanced with both speakers complete has made a world of difference as expected. Listened to Rush - Moving Pictures and now listening to David Gilmour - Live At Pompeii, since they are two albums I'm very familiar with and have good bass. The slam is off the charts! I would think I had gotten a better subwoofer or something to get this kind of sound but it's just the 7B's taken to a new level. Feeling it much more in the chest now. Very nice. I would suggest to anyone doing this that they remove the tweeter and Passives also, in order to have good access. I left my polyfill and crossover in and used cough syrup cups taped under the screw holes while drilling them out to 3/16" dia. for a little clearance. Only one pair of holes required a little more reaming with the drill to get a loose fit to the rings. I also covered up the openings while drilling. If cutting the tabs off of your MW windows, make sure to tape everything up so no steel dust gets into the driver or adheres itself to the magnet/pole piece. I believe the square washers are a contributing factor to what I'm hearing but who knows how much. I'll see if the bass gets even tighter as the epoxy cures like what I experienced listening last night to the R speaker. Thanks again to Rob (xschop).

JayCee

Glad to see you've been able to continue the improvements. I've been very happy w/the recent experiments and rethinking of status quo. Wasn't complaining before but am definitely not complaining now!

Gardenstater

Thanks JayCee. Thanks for commenting. It seems like you and I are the only *adopters* to report so far. It will be fun to hear others experiences.

JayCee

Yah, it will be. Without weeding through the FS thread I believe there were several sets of rings sold. I've been hit-n-run on the forum, myself. Weather's getting nice and things on the forum usually slow down as folks start venturing outside after hibernation. Abnormally warm for my area of the PNW this early in spring and I'm already 2 house/yard projects deep at least a month ahead of schedule.

xschop

If anyone is interested in a set for either 1.2 or 2.3 SDA's just PM. I have enough for either and don't know when I'll get around to making another batch on the mill.

Toolfan66

I have completely lost sight of this thread, actually forgot about it, that and I was crazy busy remodeling around the house at the time, if you were looking for a barrel the same size as the hardware I used, why not just purchase the same hardware I used? They sell them with different thread sizes, and without threads and different lengths, I’m sure you could have purchased them through McMaster Carr, or better yet ask me, I more than likely would have what you needed at the shop..

Love the idea of thinking outside the box, and trying different things, but have to say my rings are better!!! 😝 😆 😂

Seriously though, good job…

xschop

I commend JayCee, that's alot of work to get those felts on the midwoofers. I find it very interesting that you left the felts off the top MWs as they correspond to the top tweeter that has the highest output if I'm not mistaken?

Gardenstater my fellow hackist....Nice mod upon a mod.

pitdogg2

xschop wrote: »

I commend JayCee, that's alot of work to get those felts on the midwoofers. I find it very interesting that you left the felts off the top MWs as they correspond to the top tweeter that has the highest output if I'm not mistaken?

Gardenstater my fellow hackist....Nice mod upon a mod.

I seem to remember it is the second from the bottom. The top might be the quietest.