Optimal Speaker Wire Gauge

2

Answers

  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,980
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse.
    Nordost Frey 2
    Audioquest Silver Jupiter
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 14,123
    Of course you can do better. Start with Shunyata's entry level speaker cable.

    https://shunyata.com/products/audio-cables/venom-series-audio-cables/venom-sp/


    https://shunyata.com/speaker-cables/
    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,409
    edited August 2020
    That was crap cable then and now. Yes, you can do much better. Forget about the gauge.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 26,936
    F1nut:
    I think you should buy some real speaker cable.

    That *was* real speaker cable (Monster) circa 1995 and that's the point of my thread.
    and this was a real car in 1995.

    4ymkj1swkjnb.png

    The world changes.
    I plan to replace this cable and I'm trying to at least replicate the gauge, as I'm pleased with the sound that I get, but while I'm at it, can I do better?

    I'd encourage you, in all seriousness, not to obsess about the gauge per se. Three (big) things matter about cable -- resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Beyond those three, there are more subtle differences related (perhaps!) to geometry, materials of construction, interconnect design, dielectrics, etc.

    Look at your amplifier power, the nature of your loudspeaker load (impedance and phase curves) and the run length for the wire. If you know your amplifier's output resistance ("damping factor"), you can also calculate the impact of a length of hypotherical cable of a given resistance on that, if you like. Chances are, anything beyond 16 gauge is overkill. Overkill is fine (this is America, after all), but focusing on cable cross-sectional area is like focusing on (only) horsepower when buying a new car. You can, but there's other stuff in the package that's every bit as important in the real world.
  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,641
    When I went from 6ft long 16 gauge lamp cord to 13 gauge Litz of regular copper I heard a tremendous improvement in Bass and overall clarity. Then when I went to 5ft 14 gauge 4N copper Ribbon configuration cables with a 0.003" dielectric spacing the improvement was huge over the Litz. Highs became crystalline and bass maintained it's punch and the transient response became much faster. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, most mods comp. (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • OK, I think I've given this speaker cable thing enough air. Think I'm gonna go with 12 feet of 10 ga Mark Grant cables. Thanks for all the help.

    And F1nut, maybe you had different setups when you compared the Polk SDA-2B's as better than the 1C's. Got the 1C's this week and they're vastly superior to the 2B's. A wraparound wall of sound with the 1C's versus an occasional sliver of outside-the-speakers mid-range frequencies with the 2B's. Bigger bass.

    Just sayin' ...
    Polk SDA-1Cs
    Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080
    Yamaha M-80
    Yamaha CD-S1000
    Sony UBP-X800M2
    Technics SL-1400
    PS Audio Dectet
    AudioQuest Red River ICs Yamaha<->Yamaha
    WAudio PCs
    RapcoHorizon High Def High 413-Strand 10AWG Speaker Cable
    Auralex Isolation Pads
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,409
    edited August 2020
    Then something seriously isn't right with your 2B's. One of your drivers is likely wired incorrectly as that will kill the soundstage as well as the bass response.

    I and others have compared them with the same gear in the same room and also at different places with different gear and different people, all with the same conclusion. The 2B is the better balanced and therefore better sounding speaker.

    Bigger bass? I guess if you like an over preponderance of bloated mid bass.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,641
    edited August 2020
    What features made you choose those....description....details? Their site doesn't even seem to use the American Wire Gauge system. Are you in England?

    This one? https://www.markgrantcables.co.uk/uk/speaker-cables/van-damme-2-x-25mm-hi-fi-speaker-cable-up-lcofc-unterminated/

    I did the math and that is about a 13.2 gauge cable, and with all those fine strands (7 x 46) I don't think their claim that it minimizes skin effect holds any water because it isn't enough to have small diameter strands but they must be electrically insulated from one another. That's what Litz is all about.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, most mods comp. (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,980
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,641
    audioluvr wrote: »

    Yeah and I'm definitely not in the camp that believes more and finer strands is better because, even though the measurement freaks claim it makes no difference, I believe it smears the sound to have the signal crossing all those wire boundaries. That's why UPOCC Ohno wire sounds better, very few grain boundaries for electrons to cross.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, most mods comp. (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 9,269
    Yeah and I'm definitely not in the camp that believes more and finer strands is better because, even though the measurement freaks claim it makes no difference, I believe it smears the sound to have the signal crossing all those wire boundaries. That's why UPOCC Ohno wire sounds better, very few grain boundaries for electrons to cross.

    Don't cross the streams!
  • Ah, where to start?

    F1nut: The 1c's sound better on my system. Perhaps the one you A/B'd your pair with wasn't the same unit/make/wpc as mine. The results you got were specific to the systems used. The bass comments were unnecessary. I'm not a headbanger.

    Gardenstater: 2.5mm is 10AWG. You can actually look this stuff up. I've seen that if I ask 10 people their preference on speaker cable, I get about 12 answers. So I'll start with something, A/B it against what I've got, and start the journey to finding out what's the best for me like all of you did. And yep, those cables are in the UK.
    Fedex.

    audioluvr: It's all fancy lamp cord. We pay all this $$ and obsess over all these details to get marginal gains that are significant to us.

    Now on to something else ....



    Polk SDA-1Cs
    Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080
    Yamaha M-80
    Yamaha CD-S1000
    Sony UBP-X800M2
    Technics SL-1400
    PS Audio Dectet
    AudioQuest Red River ICs Yamaha<->Yamaha
    WAudio PCs
    RapcoHorizon High Def High 413-Strand 10AWG Speaker Cable
    Auralex Isolation Pads
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,409
    It's got nothing with being a headbanger. The fact that you said that tells me you have no idea what an over preponderance of bloated mid bass actually is. If you bothered to figure out what is wrong with your 2B's you might just discover what many of us with over 30 years of SDA experience know.

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,641
    edited August 2020
    Ah, where to start?

    Gardenstater: 2.5mm is 10AWG. You can actually look this stuff up. I've seen that if I ask 10 people their preference on speaker cable, I get about 12 answers. So I'll start with something, A/B it against what I've got, and start the journey to finding out what's the best for me like all of you did. And yep, those cables are in the UK.
    Fedex.

    Now on to something else ....

    I mistakenly thought that you wanted to learn. 2.5mm is 10 gauge ONLY IF we are talking about solid core wire. The mfg. you are going with that has the glorified lamp cord (it does look nice) specifically states that the construction is:

    Conductor stranding – 7 x (46 x 0.10mm)

    Now if you calculate the area of a 0.10mm dia. wire (Pi times diameter squared divided by 4) and multiply it by 46 and then by 7 you get that it is more like 13.2 gauge, from this chart:

    https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

    Most of us enjoy this hobby by doing our own experimentation and seeing the incremental improvements, so you'll be fine. You'll just spend a LOT more money in the end. :D

    PS: The really frustrating thing about this is that you have no clue still what your original cable's AWG (because you didn't follow my advice on how to measure) is and your whole premise was that you wanted to duplicate with new glorified lamp cord (my words) but you don't even know if you will be doing that. SMH
    Post edited by Gardenstater on
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, most mods comp. (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 26,936
    For better or worse, it's not all "fancy lamp cord."
    Some of the wires sold for hifi use are almost terrifyingly exotic in design, sometimes making them interesting, reactive loads for amplifiers all by themselves (even before they're connected to a loudspeaker).
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,409
    Definitely not lamp cord.
    jnd9ze7qw2u5.jpg

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • DillyDDillyD Posts: 3
    I'm having trouble hcmbn7bcmlcpk.jpg
  • DillyDDillyD Posts: 3
    edited August 2020
    I'm having trouble hooking up these speakers to my record player, how do I so it?
  • DillyDDillyD Posts: 3
    jtshm2xkkq8e.jpgh810feerq111.jpg

    How do hook these together?
  • msgmsg Posts: 6,257
    Do you have a receiver with a phono/turntable input?

    Record Player >> Receiver >> Left and Right Speaker Cables out to speakers. You need terminal nuts on those speaker terminals, or banana plugs.
    I disabled signatures.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 17,916
    You're flipping joking right?
    You cannot be that audio dumb.
  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 11,617
    DillyD wrote: »
    jtshm2xkkq8e.jpgh810feerq111.jpg

    How do hook these together?

    t63uzjcijw48.png


    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,980
    audioluvr: It's all fancy lamp cord. We pay all this $$ and obsess over all these details to get marginal gains that are significant to us.

    Don't knock it till you try it. Someone here smarter than me once said " People who don't know, don't know they don't know. Ya know?"
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,641
    edited August 2020
    If you don't want to rush in and pay the big $$'s or even moderate $'s for some mfg's offering that is recommended by knowledgeable and experienced folks here, why not start down the path of educating yourself and DIYing some cables yourself that might surprise lots of people as far as how well they perform? You can make a damn good one from some CAT5e cable. It will be whatever gauge you want it to be so make it the same gauge and length as your lamp cord for A/B ing the two, ETP electrolytic tough pitch copper which is probably what is in your lamp cord or slightly worse if you really do have .9995 copper, and most importantly will be Litz as well as low inductance due to the twisted signal pairs! Make it the same gauge as your glorified lamp cord and then get back to us. That's what I did for my first step away from lamp cord. Here's where I began to learn and got the construction details.

    https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/tweaks.html

    https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html

    https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ffrc_e.html (<<13 gauge)

    https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/triple_t_e.html (<<this one should be 10 gauge)
    Post edited by Gardenstater on
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, most mods comp. (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • Thanks. I'll add it to the list.
    Polk SDA-1Cs
    Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080
    Yamaha M-80
    Yamaha CD-S1000
    Sony UBP-X800M2
    Technics SL-1400
    PS Audio Dectet
    AudioQuest Red River ICs Yamaha<->Yamaha
    WAudio PCs
    RapcoHorizon High Def High 413-Strand 10AWG Speaker Cable
    Auralex Isolation Pads
  • fish357fish357 Posts: 307
    edited September 2020
    I would offer that, using the formulas below, one should be able to figure out how much power- Jules in this instance- a given gauge and length can carry before falling on its face (ie resistance).
    If you put a gallon of water into a large funnel, it’s going to come out a lot more slowly than it went in.

    Maybe this is helpful, maybe not.

    nn3q62bxggmj.jpeg
    xtssgcsd8fer.jpeg
    p3imgb7ptu91.jpeg
    I realize the application is a little different (I spent 7 years doing 12 volt stuff for cops), but I believe the concept is the same. In this case you’re just talking in terms of impedance- alternating current, versus resistance- direct current.
    I’m probably saying stuff most of you already know.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 26,936
    the units of power are Watts.
    the units of energy are Joules.
    the units of force are Newtons.
    https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html

    1 Watt = 1 Joule/second = 1 (m^2-kg)/sec^3
    1 Joule = 1 Newton-meter = 1 (m^2-kg)/sec^2
    1 Newton = 1 (kg-m)/sec^2
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,980
    Yes but how do your joules sound? :D
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 14,123
    My next Shunyata speaker cables.

    01zwmk7h56zq.png
    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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