Clipping does it bad!

Oldwriter

Earlier, I posted on the forum that I'd been having severe distortion problems with my new RTi6 speakers - mostly on opera recordings. Well, after talking with a Polk representative, it would appear that my problem is amplifier clipping! Hadn't thought about that for years - but I guess that's it. My oldish Kenwood 100-w/channel receiver apparently isn't up to the task of powering the RTi6s on opera. Sigh. Whenever the singer starts belting out arias, the top end "tears" and sounds ragged. Do any of you have that problem? Anyway, the Polk chap said I need a better amp NOW - so I guess so.
The RTi6s sound thin and tinny - I'm really sure I'm going to keep them - rather disappointed, except that they DO sound transparent and "open." But thin and tinny. Any ideas, anybody? With thanks - LR

PolkWannabie

By ideas do you mean in terms of WHICH amp ?

For starters ...

What's your budget ?

Does your receiver have preamp outputs ?

Oldwriter

Um, let's see - I'm running a Kenwood 309 with 100-w/channel, no preamp outputs. My "budget" would allow for spending up to $450 for a new receiver - with Onkyo my first choice. I'm still not sure the Kenwood's to blame - but the Polk chap is SURE of that, so I guess he knows more than I do. I know music - not electronics. LR

PolkWannabie

I have an Onkyo TX-NR801 that I use in another setup which would probably fill the bill even though it too is 100 wpc but you won't be finding one for $450 ...

How 'bout you HK fans out there ?

Opera has a lot of dynamic range to it ... You turn it up loud enough to here the quiet passages and the loud passages are more than the receiver can handle ...

Do you have an SPL Meter ? I'm curious to know how loud the loud passages are that you are listening too.

Oldwriter

How loud, indeed. Well, now, I'd have to say that we listen to opera at about one-third of the potential volume. Not really loud at all, according to most folks we know! Our room is 15 feet across - stereo to couch/chairs. We run the volume at a point where we can barely hear the "soft" portions of an aria - then just let it run out when the performer turns on the power - often turning it down a bit, actually. Certainly never running the receiver anywhere near the full-power, or even 3/4 power point. Thus, the "clipping" leaves me confused, as we really aren't putting out that much volume! Still, when the volume on the CDs increases a lot, the distortion comes in - especially with the human voice. Am I making sense here? Hope so. LR

PolkWannabie

Yes you are ... On receivers that have linear volume scales the halfway point would only leave 3db more + whatever headroom the receiver itself has which won't be much, unlikely that would be another 3db. For music like operas this may not be enough.

Is it the VR309 Kenwood you have ? i.e. this one ? ftp://docs.kenwoodusa.com/manuals/OM-VR-309-1999-KUSA.pdf

Oldwriter

Sorry - for some reason the link wouldn't open - but yes, the VR309 is what I've got - have had it since, um, 1998. It always sounded great with my "old" Celestion speakers, though I've got to admit two things: the Celestions have lost their highs over the years, and recently I've been hearing some of that high-freq. distortion in them, too. However - the new Polks are severe in their distortion - only on opera and choral music, or perhaps, ESPECIALLY on those CDs. Sigh. I'm going crazy, and think dynamite might be the best answer! G R I N LR

PolkWannabie

Assuming for a minute that you DIDN'T buy your RTi6's by mailorder or over the internet then I would go down to the store that you got them at or another store that carries them with your opera CD's in hand and try them out using a constant CD player, hopefully the same or one similar to what you have, and a variety of receivers hooked up to the RTi6's and see how far you can push them before they start having the same problems.

If this isn't an option then they are small enough to bring with you if necessary ...

I like many others here could make some recommendations but I think it best that you make your own tests with your own music selections and listening habits ...

As far as why do you hear it more on the Polks ? ... I think you hit it on the head saying that the Celestions have started losing their highs, possibly because they have been suffering from this condition themselves for awhile and of course the Polks are new and so will be much more likely to show what there is to show, good bad or indifferent.

One other comment here ... imho it DOES take speakers awhile to break in, possibly as much as 50-100 hours and although this is probably NOT the cause of what you are hearing they will smooth out SOME as time goes along.

In any case I think you need to go test with your music, your ears, a comparable CD player, the RTi6's and all the receivers you can find.

F1nut

I'm going to say it again, it's not the speakers. It's either the CD player (new or not) or your receiver is going south. The reason you notice it more with the Polk's is that they are reproducing the high end better than the old speakers. Can you borrow some gear from a friend? If not, go to a store...buy some better gear.....take it home and try it out. If you still have your problem, return the gear you just bought and you can yell at me.

gregure

My friend, I feel your pain. I listen to lots of opera and classical, and I couldn't stand not being able to listen to it at higher volumes, and distortion would drive me insane. I don't have what anyone would consider a high end system, but it suits me fine. I use an Onkyo 701 which you can purchase for about $600 at http://www.onecall.com/, or for $700 at Circuit City (where you can finance). I use Rti 10's for my mains, and a decent sub by Sony. Sometimes I run it through stereo mode, or sometimes the dts surround mode Neo 6, which sounds great too, especially when you set the mains to full output. I know this is beyond your budget (way beyond), but I tell you, opera sounds great on my system. Vocals are right in the room, and there is plenty of power and range, for example Karajan's Tosca with Price sounds amazing (the Decca Legends remaster) and Sinnoppoli's recording of Strauss's Elektra is thrillling. All of it sounds great. My advice, to do justice to your music of choice, I would finance some Rti 8's, which are great speakers. You may find them in Circuit City with reduced prices as they will no longer be carrying the Rti series come summer. Then, shoot for a good stereo receiver from Onkyo or Harman Kardon (the two-channel receivers usually run between $200 and $300, but One Call would have them for a good price). That is, of course, unless you are using a surround sound setup, but for just stereo a good two-channel amp/receiver would be perfect. The Onkyo TX 8511 comes to mind. The 8's are fine for music, but if you really want the bass to be full you will spring for a sub. However the 8's have more range than the 6's, so if that's what you are used to you would be fine. You could help offset the new costs by selling the 6's on Ebay. Just some friendly advice, but for good music you need good equipment. Good luck.

danger boy

yeah your Kenwood isn't old really at all. I'm suprised it's clipping that badly. 100wpc seems like plenty for the 6's. There could be some other problem with your receiver. it could need repairs to the amps or innards.

I recently bought a vintege (1979) Yamaha amp that needed repairs to the right channel. That's almost to be expected on something that age.. but yours sound like it might be the amps going out.

It could be that your Kenwood is not high current. That might be causing the clipping. How much do you listen to music? Is the Kenwood on for many, many hours a day.. belting out arias?

I think once you get another receiver.. the 6's prob won't sound thin or tinny anymore.

WHen i went from an old Pioneer receiver to a Marantz one... the sound difference was pretty dramatic to say the least.

good luck. let us know what your plans are once you decide.

Oldwriter

Well, I thank you. You have been most kind, and informative. I DID buy the speakers Online - from Crutchfield. So taking them back would be, uh, "difficult." However, I'm taking to heart your suggestions re taking my CDs over to Sound Advice (local Polk dealers in Naples) and playing them on their speakers. They'll probably not have the "cheap" stuff I've got, though! G R I N
Your ideas are sound - and I thank you! LR

PolkWannabie

Let's not send him down the different speakers road i.e. if ain't broken don't fix it ...

The 6's are fine for now.

Oldwriter

Good ideas - our amp is only on a few hours a day, but you never know, I guess. Thanks!

Originally posted by danger boy
yeah you're Kenwood isn't old really at all. I'm suprised it's clipping that badly. 100wpc seems like plenty for the 6's. There could be some other problem with your receiver. it could need repairs to the amps or innards.

I recently bought a vintege (1979) Yamaha amp that needed repairs to the right channel. That's almost to be expected on something that age.. but yours sound like it might be the amps going out.

It could be that your Kenwood is not high current. would might be causing the clipping. How much do you listen to music? Is the Kenwood on for many, many ours a day.. belting out arias?

I think once you get another receiver.. the 6's prob won't sound thin or tinny anymore.

WHen i went from an old Pioneer receiver to a Marantz one... the sound difference was pretty dramatic to say the least.

good luck. let us know what youp plans are once you decide.

gregure

Here's the link to One Call's stereo receivers. They are within your budget, so if you are willing to finance the 8's ($700/pair) you would really be cooking.

http://ww1.onecall.com/SLF_50.htm

F1nut

Guys, his speakers ARE NOT the problem!

Oldwriter

Well, I'm full of ideas now - and hoping that I can get it all straightened out. Music is and has always been a vital part of my life - and the frustration of all this distortion is intense. Tomorrow, I'm going to listen a bit and ask some questions of the local Polk gurus - with perhaps an answer or three. Living on retirement income ain' like life in the "old days," with a reg-lur paycheck! GRIN Thanks, all. LR

Oldwriter

Ah, a "good music" lover! You're a rare breed these days! Yes, I know that I'm living in a dream world re great sound, but that's life. Hmmm. . . From all the helpful comments on this forum I'm sure I need a new receiver (yes, I do surround movies) But what's this? CC phasing out the RTi line? Why? Is there something ominous I need to know? Thanks for the informative get-back - I feel better already. LR

Originally posted by gregure
My friend, I feel your pain. I listen to lots of opera and classical, and I couldn't stand not being able to listen to it at higher volumes, and distortion would drive me insane. I don't have what anyone would consider a high end system, but it suits me fine. I use an Onkyo 701 which you can purchase for about $600 at http://www.onecall.com/, or for $700 at Circuit City (where you can finance). I use Rti 10's for my mains, and a decent sub by Sony. Sometimes I run it through stereo mode, or sometimes the dts surround mode Neo 6, which sounds great too, especially when you set the mains to full output. I know this is beyond your budget (way beyond), but I tell you, opera sounds great on my system. Vocals are right in the room, and there is plenty of power and range, for example Karajan's Tosca with Price sounds amazing (the Decca Legends remaster) and Sinnoppoli's recording of Strauss's Elektra is thrillling. All of it sounds great. My advice, to do justice to your music of choice, I would finance some Rti 8's, which are great speakers. You may find them in Circuit City with reduced prices as they will no longer be carrying the Rti series come summer. Then, shoot for a good stereo receiver from Onkyo or Harman Kardon (the two-channel receivers usually run between $200 and $300, but One Call would have them for a good price). That is, of course, unless you are using a surround sound setup, but for just stereo a good two-channel amp/receiver would be perfect. The Onkyo TX 8511 comes to mind. The 8's are fine for music, but if you really want the bass to be full you will spring for a sub. However the 8's have more range than the 6's, so if that's what you are used to you would be fine. You could help offset the new costs by selling the 6's on Ebay. Just some friendly advice, but for good music you need good equipment. Good luck.

danger boy

I'm with F1nut. i don't think it's the RTi6's either. it's the receiver baby. or maybe even the slightest chance it's the speaker wires. doubtful. but they may oxidize if you live near the ocean. the salty air might speed up the oxidation process..

Take the receiver in for an evalution if it needs repairs. you can then find out if that's the problem... then if it's to costly to repair.. then you can look for other ones.

Think about if you have to replace the receiver. with a Onkyo, Denon, Marantz that is high current. Most are today anyways.

scottnbnj

danger boy
"...or maybe even the slightest chance it's the speaker wires. doubtful."

lotta food for thought there,..

i really don't know anything about your gear or how much troubleshooting the other thread or polk customer service walked you through, but i don't see enough here to buy a new receiver yet. so,.. (stop me if you've been through this)

)

does the tuner sound normal (even if you don't like the stations you get)?

if there are buttons on your receiver that look like tuner controls, they ~might~ affect your other sources too(am filter comes to mind).

defeat or set tone controls to center, maybe turn loudness on/off, if variable, try different settings. stereo/mono set to stereo. if you have cd direct, turn that on.

if you have a tape deck or equalizer, make sure cd is not running through the tape loop.

for cd/dvd player, if there is volume control or variable output on your cd, turn it up. inspect wire connections. new cables from cd to receiver. maybe try plugging them into a different input(ie aux/vid).

for speaker wire connections, redo connections to receiver, don't use silly little pin connectors, swap banana plugs or bare wires(if you have one, try the other). on speaker side, same pin, bare wire, banana advice as above, but also make sure the binding posts are tight and jumper is secure on the top *and* bottom posts. might be worth taking the jumper off and inspecting it. new speaker wires. how long is your speaker wire? what guage? oh yeah, while your at it make sure all the +'s and -'s are correct on receiver and speaker side. if it's difficult to tell on your wires, get new ones.

if you have around the house or can borrow other speakers, receivers or cd/dvd players(if you have a dvd player, it might play cd's), for the cost of a new receiver, it might be worth swapping individual parts out one at a time.

woo,.. hope i didn't burn all of these pixels if you already tried all this stuff. i bedda sign off for now and wish you luck.

)

Oldwriter

Whoa! a lotta questions to answer. Tuner is all set flat, with no boost or compression - sounds better than the CD player, but then, FM cuts off a lot of highs anyway. Am using an optical digital cable between CD/DVD player and receiver. Have cleaned the "eyes" and ports - as I've taken off every single connection and cleaned them.
All my controls are set to "flat." Let's see - my speaker wires are 14-gauge - bare on the amp and banana plugs (gold) on the speakers. Everything loosened, then tightened several times.
The CD player is not - to my thinking - the problem. My "old" Sony player seemed to offer about the same "sound" as the new one does - and I'm comparing the sound on my old Celestions, not the new speakers. Old Sony just wouldn't play as many formats as the JVC 55SL - which I dearly love. It's super-crisp on movies, and generally transparent on CDs - except opera and choral music - seems the human voice over-drives something, and the distortion comes in.
Today, I'm taking two or three opera CDs into the local Sound Advice store - local Polk dealers. I'll listen there, and see if my problem shows up on their gear - and yes, I'll try to duplicate the types of equipment best I can - no super-amps, for example!
While I'm there, I'll get a new optical digital cable, as one Polk rep suggested - just in case there's some flaw in mine. But I doubt it. All other cables are either new or in perfect condition.
Sigh - well, that's about it. Hoping for the best - and Many Thanks to y'all on the Forum. LR

PolkWannabie

IMHO ... Forget the optical and use digital coax ... However this is not part of the problem, just a personal preference.

Oldwriter

Thanks for the optical/coax input - though I've read many places that optical is better (personal taste?) May try switching over, but unless there's a good reason. . . I'm about as over-loaded as my speakers this ayem - trying to make notes on things to check out. Thankx VERY MUCH to all on this forum! LR

PolkWannabie

At this juncture you're trying to solve a problem ... remember to KISS ( Keep it simple, stupid ) ... there's no need to be thinking about other wire or other speakers or anything else until you better understand the problem and have a solution for it.

The better you can duplicate your home situation at the audio place of your choice the faster and easier success will come in the resolution of that problem. I think it's good that you are taking your own CD's because you are familiar with the music and what it should sound like and you will at least have a rough idea of how loud you can play it on your own system before you have problems etc.

Oldwriter

Yes, you are very correct. But I've got a couple of problems going in: 1-will the store have any sort of comparable equipment? and 2-will I be able to replicate the sound there? Salesmen can be intrusive chaps, and unless I demand fair comparisons, they often try to "upgrade" before I even start! Courage! - that's the word of the day! (GRIN)
As I've said before, however, LOUD is not the only aspect of my problem, for the distortion on opera CDs comes in even when I have the volume at a medium/low level. Whenever there's a high-volume segment - that's when the "tearing" comes in, even if I'm not actually playing the amp at a, well, high volume. Am I making sense to you? You're obviously light-years ahead of me on equipment knowledge. Thanks again - LR

PolkWannabie

Yes ... as I said before ... Opera has loads of dynamic range ... but from what I've heard you say it's the high volume segments that are causing problems ... The implication imho is it's amp related. Your receiver MIGHT be repairable or it might just be out of gas. If you know someone who is good in the repair business in your area than discuss it with him ... maybe he can give it a listen and/or bench test it and see which it is and if correctable what it would cost without spending more than an hour of his time.

It shouldn't be too difficult to get the stores to allow you to play your CD's on a similar player through some receiver to a pair of RTi6's.

The goal I would think given your budget is to a find a receiver you can put in the chain and play the loud passages of your CD's through the RTi6's without distortion at HIGHER volumes than what you like to listen to them at. Start at the high end and work down or the low end and work up. Try the Onk's, Yammer's, Denon's and whatever else they happen to have. When you've found comparable ones in each line that are capable of performing the way you want then listen for differences in sound quality that YOU can hear as it really doesn't matter what any of us think and then beyond that you can see what features some particular unit has as compared with others.

Oldwriter

To all who have helped - PolkWannabie; F1nut; gregure; danger boy, etc. - to all - many thanks.
I've spent a long, hectic day dealing with my audio problems. Let me highlight:
Spent a long time in the local Polk speaker emporium (read it, things I can't afford!) And learned a lot.
Played the "offending" CDs on first one, then another receiver, and listened to both RTi6s and the LSi line (much more expensive)
After listening to many combinations, I came to the conclusion that I need MUCH more dynamic headroom - something I can't get on the amp I have (Kenwood 309).
Listened to Denons and Yamahas - starting out with 85 watt/ch. which gave me not much better sound than I have at home. High notes in voice and strings still distorted. I got very depressed. \
Then, I was lead into "Room 2" - where they cranked up some Denon 100-watt units - and my mind expanded, along with the sound. THIS is what I've been missing! Of course, all I have to do is come up with a thousand bucks for the unit. Sigh. Not now, as I've gotta pay for three crowns and two root canals this month. The price of growing older. . .
Back home - and I realize that I can no longer listen to my beloved opera records at anything but very low volume. OK, I'll have to live with it.
Sorry to report, but the old Celestion DR6 speakers sound better than the new Polks do - except for high frequencies, which the Celestions no longer push out very much. Not sure why.
OK - problem identified, if not yet solved. To all who took time and energy to respond - THANK YOU!
And to Polk Speaker folk, if you're monitoring - my RTi6s sound nearly as good as comparable LSi models - and better than the LSi15s I heard. I (and the audio salesman) found them "reedy," and not too natural.
Still checking to make sure there are no more gremlins in my system - putting in new speaker wire, as several of you have strongly urged. Will see - and hope. THANX!!!! LR

dcarlson

Don't forget the used market. Check the flea market here, there may be something that'll suit your needs.

F1nut

Thanks for keeping us updated. I hope you managed to have a little fun demoing the new gear.

Another good source of used gear is www.audiogon.com.

George Grand

Kudos to Mr. Carlson for finally getting there. The USED market.

Ditch the whole receiver idea and get some quality used separates. In order to not surpass your $450 price point, start with just a preamp and power amp. Add the AM/FM tuner after you save up some more retirement checks.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

Oldwriter

OK - taking all suggestions - and writing them down! Starting to look around - with many thanks to you all! Long may you all continue to be "life-savers!" LR