LSi Speaker and amplifier match

BoT

I have a Denon 685 (100w/channel) which supposedly will work with a 4 ohm if I connect only one set of speakers. I am thinking of getting some LSi 9 or 15's. Is this an appropriate match? Getting a new amp kills the budget for new speakers.
Thanks

jdhdiggs

If they are rated for 4-ohm, shouldn't be that much of an issue... I still wouldn't crank the volume though.

FYI: Mantis is selling a pair of 9's for a great deal. ($500 shipped I think)

Early B.

You need a separate amp for the Lsi's. It defeats the purpose to buy high quality speakers and power them with a receiver.

BoT

Can you lead me to any appropriate moderately priced amps for these 4 ohm speakers/
Thanksi

PolkWannabie

Define moderately priced. Also before you go too far down this road ... I'm not familiar with this particular receiver, does it have preamp outputs ?

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'd agree also on needing a separate amp. I don't think they'll sound bad on that receiver, just not as great as they're capable of.

You'll get alot of subjective opinions on which amp to use. I vote for Parasound...

Point is, buy whatever sounds good to you that you can afford.

BoT

The Denon does have pre-amps. Moderate price is 1000-1500

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by BoT
Moderate price is 1000-1500

Is that your budget for amp and speakers? If so, I'd reccomend you grab the 9's fron Dan (mantis) over in the flea market and get the parasound HCA 1500A, you should be able to grab that used for about $500.

That gets you an awesome set up for ~$1000.

In addition to Parasound, take a look at Outlaw. That brand has a nica following around here. Some other brands I'll mention for your consideration:

These are a bit on the expensive side, but you may able to find used at a reasonable price:

B&K
Bryston
Krell
Lexicon
Aragon
Marsh
McIntosh

And on the cheaper side:

Harman Kardon
Adcom
Carver

Don't rule out used gear, as you'll find really good deals there...

I'd use
Audiogon first, then Ebay.

Hope this helps...

BoT

Thanks guys You gave me plenty to work with.

GregBe

Hi Guys,

This is my first post, and my first experience with Polks. I also have a question about amplification and the LSi7. As you may have seen, these bookshelves are being closed out at Fry's for the ridiculous price of $199 a pair. I have a Harman Kardon DPR-1001 which is their digital path receiver and has 50 watts per channel. HK says it should have no problem with a 4 ohm load. I understand the need for better amplification for these high quality speakers as mentioned earlier.

My question is this. Obviously I would not be getting everything out of these speakers, but would they sound bad? Would I be better off spending that same $200 on a lesser speaker that is not so demanding. I am sure if these speakers were full price, my money could be better spent elsewhere on not such a demanding speaker, but what about at these prices. Upgrading my receiver or amp is not an option right now.

Thanks
Greg

ch47d

I definatly think you will want, not need an amp. If your HK says it will handle speakers with a 4 ohm (nominal) rating that means the amp can handle the current without failure. Depending on how efficiant the speakers you presently have are, I think you will be disapointed with the volume you get from 50wpc with the LSi speakers. The reason is the LSi has a 88Db sensitivity rating. It takes DOUBLE the power for a 3Db increase in volume! I have read, on other forums that the LSi series sounds absolutely amazing, if you have an amp with enough power and ability to handle a 4ohm (nominal) speaker.

jefft1314

I could be wrong, but most receivers that handle 4 ohm loads actually drive a lot more power into the 4 ohm loads, so perhaps the dpr 1001 (nice sounding receiver by the way) carries more than 50 watts per channel into 4 ohm speakers. If I'm wrong please correct me, but I remember reading different wattage numbers on most recievers that drove more than 8 ohm speakers. Also, anybody here believe there's an AVR out there that can drive the rti 10's or rti 12's, or should I continue like I've been doing and tell customers to get separate amps when they come in looking at those speakers. You want to know why Circuit City isn't carring the RTI line any more? My guess is that because we don't have the ability to drive them the way they're meant to be driven, we're unable to really sell up to them. The monitor series, being a lower end speakers will probably perform well on the HK's and Onkyo's we sell at CC. That's just my two cents. If CC were to start carrying amps instead of just AVR's, and somebody had the sense to set up receivers and amps in the same room to get some A&B testing higher end speakers could probably be more effectively sold. Then again, I'm just a lowly sales associate, and Circuit City is the same company who mandates that we set up Bose sattelite system (the same one) in three different locations and doesn't allow us to set up the Rm6700's, even when Polk is giving away a free subwoofer. I hate corporations. Anybody in the Vermont/New Hampshire area want to start a store that isn't run by morons? Oh well, off to work I go to get yelled out for not selling any service plans yesterday.

amulford

Originally posted by Early B.
You need a separate amp for the Lsi's. It defeats the purpose to buy high quality speakers and power them with a receiver.

I don't know all that...;)

shiu

Originally posted by jefft1314
Also, anybody here believe there's an AVR out there that can drive the rti 10's or rti 12's, or should I continue like I've been doing and tell customers to get separate amps when they come in looking at those speakers. You want to know why Circuit City isn't carring the RTI line any more? My guess is that because we don't have the ability to drive them the way they're meant to be driven, we're unable to really sell up to them.

I believe the AVR630 can do the RTi10 not too badly. I A/B a pair of RTi10 & a pair of JBL that sells for half the price at a Future shop store recently. They used an AVR430, and the RTi sounded thin, the JBL sounded much better in mid bass. Then I ldid the same at another Future Shop store that used an AVR630, this time the RTi sounded much better. The RTi does sound better with more power, that's why I added my old Adcom power amp. to help out my Sony DA4ES receiver. The improvement was immediately noticeable (though not huge in my case), and I am only talking about the small RTi38 here!

jdhdiggs

Originally posted by amulford
I don't know all that...;)

I'll agree with amulford, my Kenwood has been driving 6 of the LSi 7's and sounds pretty good doing it. Granted, the sevens sound better when being manhandled by the carver, but the still sound very good coming off a measly 35W/channel reciever.

Remember, most normal people don't listen at a sustained 100+ dB. At 30 W/channel, your talking about 103+ dB (Frequency can also affect volume/power) Easy solution, don't turn it up really loud...

scottnbnj

Originally posted by GregBe
My question is this. Obviously I would not be getting everything out of these speakers, but would they sound bad? Would I be better off spending that same $200 on a lesser speaker that is not so demanding. I am sure if these speakers were full price, my money could be better spent elsewhere on not such a demanding speaker, but what about at these prices. Upgrading my receiver or amp is not an option right now.

my limited and humble experience first, i have not listened to lsi7's for more than half an hour *total* through a few hours of lsi9 demoes. i'm basing my oponion on that and my limited experience with owning and being owned by lsi9's for a month or so.

if you want loud music all day with deep/low bass and have a large room to fill with sound you might well have trouble with lsi7's. if that's what you're looking for, lsi7's w/o a subwoofer just might not be the best match for you, even with a great amp.

if you spend most of your time in the moderate levels(maybe 10 o'clock) and go to higher levels for short periods of time, and you tend to sit close to carefully positioned speakers in the sweet spot and concentrate on nuance, detail and pinpointing image, you'll probably love the **** out of these speakers and have to pry yourself away from them and while listening often calculate just how much sleep you'll need before you have to get up in the morning,.. and your receiver will probably never get warmer than it does now,.. and don't be surprised(i mean, you will be if you do, but not because you haven't been warned) when you hear nuances, filled in edges and seemingly effortlessly detailed images that you've never heard before on music that you have listened to carefully 100's of times in the past(of course depending on your old speakers, but i'd bet these are things you think your current speakers are straining to do if you're looking at lsi's).

if the later is closer to where you want to be, and you are not totally opposed to the possibility of having to upgrade your receiver or adding a power amp when *you* are ready if you end up sacrificing some volume to avoid distortion or adding a powered sub if you need more moving bass, buy these speakers with confidence.

i agree with most of what the others have said, these speaks, for what they are, while refined, are stout and will perform in the same room with great gear with grace and a surprising amount of force/authority for their size. where i disagree(strongly) is where folks like you might be led to believe that these speaks can't sound great with modest gear too.

they can.

here's why i think so:
out of the box i ran my lsi9's with a denon dra-25(i think, might be 10 years or older, rated 40 wpc @ 8 ohms) non-stop for several days to begin break in(constantly checking for and dreading the impending 4 ohm effect), turning up the volume to not extremely loud levels(~maybe~ up to 11 o'clock) for no more than a cut at a time(experimenting, slowly increasing volume for longer periods of time, having heard all of the high current buzz that you have).

no puffs of smoke, no clips, receiver never even got warm. considering they were still early in the break in process, i liked them a lot with that receiver which had previously been pulling light duty w/ mission series 70 mk-II's. in some ways i preferred the denon/lsi match to what i got immediately after when i switched them to a 130 wpc @ 8 ohm carver receiver. though the break in saga has come a long way since then and i have experimented a lot with placement and bi-wired i still don't believe they are fully ripe. and,.. i am seeing where a little more muscle and headroom is uh,.. sweet and uh,.. more potent.

in any case, the carver runs cooler, cleaner and louder with the lsi9's than polk monitor 7's(go figure the cooler part) and i am hearing and feeling things the monitor 7's never revealed with a sense of ease that i never got from the monitors(i admit my monitor 7 experience is not exactly fresh in my mind(most recent was months ago), but i did enjoy them exclusively for years with that receiver with a better cd player). in the future, after break in and before amp and cd upgrade, i do intend to play with lsi/denon again just for a second look and help with upgrade characteristics i'm looking for.

but, for folks that say receivers and modest gear is pointless or are a waste of time with lsi7's or 9's, think about your instincts, not mine or theirs.

if you are ready, and have liked the lsi7 demoes you've gotten so far with gear in close to or lower than your gears' class, and think they will be a step above the speaks you have now,.. relax, stop worrying and do it. just get your lsi's and be careful not to overdrive them or your receiver and *enjoy* yourself and know that you have a solid foundation to build on when *you* are ready to upgrade.

at the same time, remember too, the lsi9's have another driver than 7's and, i'd imagine, are a bit more difficult to drive. on the same note, this might be why my old polk catalog says lsi7's and 9's are compatible with 8 ohm outputs, where up the line it says that's not good enough. they have more drivers.

)

Bob F.

A superb receiver that can in-fact be used with the LSi Series Speakers with superb "authority of sound" would be a NAD T730. It can easily carry a 4 ohm load and it does it very nicely with extremely low distortion. Now, I know it's a bit "pricy" but not really when you consider the "quality build", power, extremely low distortion at 4 and 8 ohm loads, and it handles quite a few "formats" to boot!
I do not own the NAD T730 but I know 2 people that do and I've spent a considerable amount of time listening to it and physically adjusting and setting the different "surround contore" controls on it. Very superb sound. I was most impressed with it. If you feel that you do not want to buy seperates and would like to stay with a receiver then perhaps you should at least take a very close look and if possible, listen to a NAD T730.
I really like this Receiver.

LuSh

Power really isn't an issue. Its the quality within the power. Most audiophile grade amps and intergrateds would have more then enough power to drive the LSi speakers.

Polk Audio LSi's are not a hard speaker to drive in comparison to Totem, Audio Focus or even Revel's. What is needed is a very good pre-amp section and amp section. NAD is a good starting point if you are on a budget. I'd suggest lookin at more upscale AMP's if the funds are available. These speakers will continue to get better the better the electronics are on the backend.

Bob F.

I agree with LuSh,
NAD would be an outstanding starting point. NAD Receivers can easily carry a 4 ohm load with authority! NAD is well worth the money! I have an old NAD 2600A Power Amp and I hot wired it to two Definitive 15" subwoofers 6 YEARS AGO and no noise, no hum and no hiss. Just superb bass. Yeah, I tore out the Definitive Amps (they hummed! Shame on Definitive!) in the two Subs and I hot wired the two Definitive 15" Woofers to my NAD 2600A (Using the stereo speaker outs on the NAD 2600A Amp attached to the subwoofer speaker wires and inputed the subwoofer output from the Sony DA777ES into the stereo input of the NAD 2600A Amp.) and with awesome results. That "damn" NAD 2600A Power Amp can easily CARRY A 2 OHM LOAD at very high power levels and...carry it cleanly! It's hard to find Amps like that from other manufacturers now but NAD is still building them like they used to. I have a lot of respect for NAD. I bought my NAD 2600A power Amp back in 1988 and I have NEVER had any problems with it. I presently have my "eye" on a NAD T730. It's expensive but I feel it's worth every penny! Not to knock my Sony DA777ES down. I like it now that I tweak the "hell" out of it for months but my NAD 2600A Power Amp has always been carrying the "grunt of the load" and I respect that NAD Amp because it ALWAYS performs sooooooooo superbly. It has really made my system sparkle!

GregBe

So it makes perfect sense to me that the better and better my electronics get, the LSI's will continually sound better. If I were to stick with my current H/K 50 watt receiver, would the LSI7's not be reaching their potential enough, that I would be better off with a less demanding speaker.

Greg

Bob F.

All speakers, regardless of "make" demand at least a "decent" receiver or separates in order to get the "most" out of them. Now, 4 ohm speakers require a "decent" receiver or separates that can carry a 4 ohm load with "decent" head-room (Power), distortion specifications and signal to noise ratios. Formats are also very important now. A lot of DVD's are starting to come out as "DTS" DVD's and they do have very nice sound. Also, Audio DVD's and SAC's are two more formats. LSi's do in fact excel with these formats but again; you're going to need a "decent" receiver or separates. Once you have found what you like (You like the sound. No audible distortion coming from the receiver and a very good signal to noise ratio-no hissing noise, hum or clipping, etc.), then the so-called research is over. Choose wisely because there are so many different formats out there from 5.1 to DTS to DTS-ES,...etc. Be careful though because there is a lot of "GARBAGE" audio products out there. Now, once you have found a receiver or separates that YOU are satisfied with and it has the SOUND AND FEATURES THAT YOU WANT, then your search is over. Sit back and enjoy it!

Bob F.

I have a 100 watt surround sound receiver (DTS, 5.1, etc.) and it's rated to carry a 4 ohm load and I have no problems at all using the Polk LSi's. I am able to play the LSi's loud with no distortion at all but again, my receiver is rated to carry a 4 ohm load. Also, I'm running Polk LSi's for the front, LSi's for the surrounds and the LSiC for the center channel. These are ALL 4 ohm speakers. The sound is quite spectacular. I love the Polk LSi's. There are a few companies out there that do in-fact build superb surround sound receivers. I own a Sony DA777ES (BE CAREFUL BUYING SONY) and it can carry a 4 ohm load but there are better companies such as NAD that have very strong current drive and most NAD's EASILY carry a 4 ohm load with no audible distortion. Yamaha also builds a few receivers (not many though) that can carry a 4 ohm load with no audible distortion. Now, these SURROUND SOUND receivers are not cheap BUT THEY ARE DAMN GOOD!!!!!

PolknPepsi

Of course quality sound is something to be desired but just so we have music in different rooms..........I have Klipsch RSX5's and Polk RT5's piggybacked on speaker#B and it works. My#685 is still ticking along with no problems after a year or so.

CaseCom

Hi everyone: first post here. I'm considering the LSi7's and would probably run them off of a Yamaha RX-V650 receiver or something similar. The Yamaha is rated to handle 4-ohm speakers.

For me, getting a separate amp just isn't going to happen. Will I get my money's worth out of the LSi's, or should I step down to something like an RTi6 and save a nice chunk of change?

Bob F.

You will definitely get your money's worth from the LSi's. I own a pair of LSi9's (Main Speakers), LSiC (Center Channel), and a pair of LSiFX's (Back Surrounds) and the sound stage and the over all sound is quite spectacular. Now, with ANY book shelf speaker, using a good subwoofer will add greatly to the over all sound. What makes the LSi9's sooooo good is that they are actually a 3-way speaker and the midrange is extremely clean and open and so are the high frequencies. I have had these LSi's for a while now and I am still thrilled with them. I am very happy that I bought them. They are outstanding for DTS sound and they are also outstanding with music.

Tour2ma

No real disagreement here with Bob F.

At 8-ohms the Rti6's do present an easier load for an amp than the Lsi7's at 4-ohms. But if a sub is involved, neither choice is going to be unmanageable for your Yammie.

Sounds like you have yet to start acquiring your rig. Are you dead set on HT over 2 ch?

Welcome to the Club and good luck to your Twinkies, especially if they are up against the "evil empire"...

CaseCom

Tour2ma, you're right, I haven't started buying yet, still in the research stage. I was looking at HT receivers because I was looking at routing audio from my DVDs to the speakers, and I wasn't sure how a 2-channel receiver would handle 5.1 audio even though I'm using only two speakers. Would a 2-channel receiver work for DVDs?

And as for the Twinkies ... if only they had beaten Cleveland today they'd be hosting Boston this week instead of traveling to New York!

Bob F.

Agreed. An 8ohm speaker will be an easier load but your Yamaha, as you stated, is rated to carry a 4 ohm load therefore you shouldn't have any problems at all using any LSi speaker model. As for the subwoofer. You have Subwoofer PRE-AMP jack(s) in the back of your Yamaha...am I correct? If so, no problem at all using an ACTIVE Subwoofer (Power Amp built inside of the subwoofer.) or using an EXTERNAL Power Amp with a PASSIVE Subwoofer (No Power Amp built inside just a subwoofer Speaker.) Using an Active Subwoofer or an EXTERNAL Power Amp connected to a PASSIVE Subwoofer will actually reduce drastically the current load off of your receiver. I set my Subwoofer Turnover frequency in my Sony ES777 to send any subwoofer frequencies at or below 90Hz to my NAD Power Amp that is connected to my two PASSIVE 15 inch Definitive subwoofers. My Definitive’s were actually Active Subs but I removed the Power Amps from both of them and I hooked up my NAD 2600A Power Amp to both Subwoofers. Way too much HUM was occurring with the Definitive Power Amps so, be careful with Active Subs. Listen to them before you buy them. Polk Active Subwoofers, from what I have actually used and heard at friend’s homes do NOT HUM! Very clean indeed. I previously owned a Pair of Polk RT7's and they are a great bookshelf speaker rated at 8 ohms BUT the LSi's are really superb. Very open and full sound and the midrange and highs are absolutely outstanding. I honestly feel that the LSi's are worth the investment. They're not inexpensive but they are worth every cent. And all the bookshelf speaker that I have seen, regardless of make, will benefit greatly with subwoofers, I like individual subwoofers because I can place the subwoofers in one locations that will benefit the subs - sound wise and place my LSi's in a different location that will benefit my LSi's. You have more placement options. If you want, you could place your subwoofers in the corners and place your bookshelf speakers away from the corners and perhaps 3 or 4 feet from the back wall and more "into" your room.

Tour2ma

CC,
Obviously a 2 ch rig is not going to do 5.1. If movies are your goal, then by all means go AVR.

But if you're looking to build and take your time, starting with a 2 ch is going to get you higher quality for the same budget. Shopping the used market for 2 ch is almost like stealing these days.

I lived for a long time with my SDA mains, period, for music, movies, the whole nine yards and was quite content... then I found this damn place.

What do you think your movie to music ratio is going to be?

CaseCom

I'm thinking 60/40 music, or maybe 50/50. Even though I won't have the 5.1 speaker setup, more DVDs these days seem to offer 5.1 audio with no 2.0 option, and I want a receiver that will be able to handle that properly.

Also, I don't see a subwoofer in my future. I'm not contesting the fact that it would improve the sound, but I'd like to keep the technoclutter in my living room to a minimum.

I won't fry my receiver if I run the LSi's without a sub, will I?

Tour2ma

True, but many, if not most (if not all) DVD Players can deliver a 2.0 audio mix.

Could you fry an AVR? Possible, but not likely, if you have any sense. Just about all amps/ AVR amp sections design in protection circuitry that shut the amps down if they overheat. DVD's and HT just make it easier to reach this point. So if the amp goes into protection mode, you just turn it down.

Had a rash of "my AVR amp is being driven into protection issues" reported here when the RTi12's came out. Some folks bought external amps and bi-amped the 12's; some folks returned the 12's. Do a search on "RTi12" and you should get a sense of the magnitude. That said the LSi7's you're considering ain't the 12's...

The LFE output, which will be routed to your mains with no sub in play (whether you go 7.0, 5.0 or 2.0), can be very taxing on an amp. The 7's would not do too well with it either.

Not trying to push you in any direction here, just provoking a little more thought.

What is the size of your proposed HT room?