Air Core Inductor falls off crossover during shipping

Clipdat

Yep, couldn't believe it! Here's the story, I bought a mint condition pair of gorgeous ATC SCM11 speakers off USAM and they arrived yesterday. Seriously stunning cherry finish that the photos don't do justice:







I hooked them up to try them out earlier this evening, and I noticed that one speaker sounded fine, and the other one was only making a small amount of treble and nothing at all from the woofer. Swapped back the last speaker that was hooked up and it was fine, so I knew it was this new speaker.

Popped the terminal cap off and noticed some green oxidation on the plastic insulators/protectors, but all connections secure:



Looked inside the cabinet and saw what looked to be bare copper wire! What the heck is this?! Pushed aside some of the insulation material and then saw this:



The massive and heavy solid copper air core inductor has fallen off the crossover during shipping! It appears that the plastic zip tie gave out, likely due to getting brittle since these are 9 year old speakers.

Hopefully it didn't damage anything else on the crossover when it happened. I can't get the front baffle off to check without having a special tool to remove the tweeter waveguide first:



I will reach out to ATC and see what they can do for me. Replacement crossovers perhaps?

Anyone else got any suggestions?

F1nut

Return to sender.

You shouldn't have to remove the tweeter to remove the baffle.

Clipdat

I thought the baffle would come off without touching the waveguide too. I removed the 4 rubber inserts where the grille rests, and then removed the 4 phillips head screws. When I start to pull I can feel it start to come apart on the bottom, but not the top.

That makes me think that the shape/inset of the waveguide is preventing the baffle from being removed.

F1nut

Hmmmm

Clipdat

I reached out to ATC already and inquired about replacement inductors, or replacement crossovers. Both of which would still require removing the front baffle.

What is needed to upgrade/rebuild the crossovers? That could be an option as well that I would pay someone more skilled than myself to complete.

marvda1

Maybe Danny Richie of Gr Research. I would also replace the internal wiring.

msg

Yeah, Torx bit for that tweeter, Drew. You could normally pick up a set of some sort at Harbor Freight or Northern Tools pretty cheap. Amazon would be an option too.

Have you been in contact with the seller?

Gardenstater

That's a *Security* Torx (or Tamper Resistant). They have a hole in the center to clear that nub. I think they are readily available, although most people don't have them in their tool boxes.

https://www.amazon.com/HORUSDY-14-Piece-Tamper-Resistant-Steel/dp/B07Q21RPS2/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=security+torx&qid=1587212703&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySEZVV1FYVlBDQlJDJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzUxODQ0MkVSNTQ5Q1M4QjROMCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDkwMDg3Sks3ODQ4QjA0S09XJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Mike Reeter

Dang Drew, this most certainly SUCKS. Hope you can get things sorted to your liking. Maybe the seller could reach out to the Shipping Co. to help out with repairs?

msg

Gardenstater wrote: »

That's a *Security* Torx (or Tamper Resistant). They have a hole in the center to clear that nub. I think they are readily available, although most people don't have them in their tool boxes.

Oooh, good catch! I didn't look closely enough to see the pin.

verb

Yep security Torx. Harbor Freight has em if it's still open for business in your area.

mhardy6647

verb wrote: »

Yep security Torx. Harbor Freight has em if it's still open for business in your area.

Indeed, the best HF security bit set (wait, is that an oxymoron) has one advantage over the cheapies -- long shanks. It turns out (don't ask me how I know this) that some of the devices in our lives that include security-head screws to keep us out of their innards also inter those screws at the bottom of deep ravines into which a short security bit, inserted into a 1/4" nut driver or the traditional bit holder/extension won't fit into.

This happened to me on a coffee maker not all that long ago... so I bought a set of these.

https://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-impact-rated-black-oxide-security-bit-set-33-piece-64907.html




At the other end of the spectrum (and FWIW): this is the set I've had, and used, for years -- these are hyper-cheap in generic form, and are actually fairly well made. Mine are branded Velleman (as in the electronic kit company) -- but they're all the same AFAIK. They've gotten me into lots of places that I (apparently) wasn't supposed to go


https://www.harborfreight.com/security-bit-set-33-pc-68459.html




On topic -- and not to be too brusque -- but, if the inductor came undone, is there a good reason not to just repair it?

delkal

How long is the wire that broke off the inductor? If its a few inched to a foot I would just cut it off and rewire the inductor. There is a lot of wire in that coil and a few inches less won't change the specs.

mhardy6647

It may be necessary to scrape or use heat (e.g., a soldering iron) to remove the enamel coating if the wire broke too far "upstream" (so to speak). I'd expect that it broke at or near the junction, though (soldering point).

The manufacturer used a zip tie to secure it, eh?

verb

Thank you Mark! Yep, this is my set!

pitdogg2

delkal wrote: »

How long is the wire that broke off the inductor? If its a few inched to a foot I would just cut it off and rewire the inductor. There is a lot of wire in that coil and a few inches less won't change the specs.

My thoughts exactly. Wind it back up best you can and solder back in. A little hot melt and 3m super double sided tape and be done.

mhardy6647

... or two zip ties.

Or go all out NASA-style and use three.



PS Here's - quite literally - my first DIY crossover. This one was published in audioXpress for the modest (and quite decent, even stock) old CSW Model Six loudspeaker (not the last, but one of Henry Kloss's last designs).



Nope, I am not proud of it, but it was fit for purpose (if barely) and the result sounded very, very good. Took the little Six to the next level, as they say.

mhardy6647

verb wrote: »

Thank you Mark! Yep, this is my set!

... and as long as one doesn't need to access security screws in crooks and nannies nooks and crannies, it's a perfectly dandy kit; I've had mine for about 20 years.

Tony M

I was just looking for a couple of screws and what's staring me in my face...
The same exact kit. Harbor freight I think. LOL.

Good luck drew.

Clipdat

Keep in mind that I don't own a soldering iron or have any experience with this sort of thing. So this is basically equivalent to a toddler trying to solve a geometry problem.

mhardy6647

Well... I mean... you could use a wire nut if there's wire at both ends.
Soldering is a useful life skill -- I a, just saying.
(and an assortment of security bits will pay for itself, sooner or later)

Just to show a little empathy and solidarity (since I really am sorry you had a disappointment associated with your new speaks) -- this is what my much-beloved, "Redboy" built JE/Angela Labs "Simple 2A3" amp looked like when I unpacked it. UPS roughed the old girl up pretty good bad.

The only damage was cosmetic -- no soldering required, though (truth be told).
Just some glue and clamps.





Good luck!

DSC_4280 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

pitdogg2

Clipdat wrote: »

Keep in mind that I don't own a soldering iron or have any experience with this sort of thing. So this is basically equivalent to a toddler trying to solve a geometry problem.

HEY NOW ! I'll have you know I've watched many a toddler solve complex geometric equations escaping from cribs and beds...... Just sayin

If I was close this would be done already

Clipdat

pitdogg2 wrote: »

If I was close this would be done already

Thanks Ivan, I appreciate your sentiment.

I'll let you guys know what ATC says when I hear back from them. That'll likely determine the direction I go in. It would be cool to upgrade the crossovers somehow, but I'll settle for anything that works.

I'll order one of those security torx sets as well so I can get inside and take a look at what's going on.

voltz

god luck Drew.. as a man who own a soldering iron but sucks at it, I understand!

just don't burn yourself! you only do that once I promise

Clipdat

Mike Reeter wrote: »

Dang Drew, this most certainly SUCKS. Hope you can get things sorted to your liking. Maybe the seller could reach out to the Shipping Co. to help out with repairs?

He wasn't super communicative but he did offer to split the cost of new crossovers (if available) and said he's willing to work with me.

VR3

The coil looks fine, perfect lay air core

I agree it would probably be a few minutes to fix, best of luck!

Clipdat

It kinda felt like the wires were still attached to the crossover. If they are, I should just coil the wire back up and then secure it back to the crossover?

Would the coil being partially unwound like this result in there only being a little bit of treble from the tweeter and nothing from the woofer, or is there perhaps something else going on with the crossover?

Dennis Gardner

Soldering is easy. Anyone can do it.

maxward

Yikes!

mhardy6647

Clipdat wrote: »

It kinda felt like the wires were still attached to the crossover. If they are, I should just coil the wire back up and then secure it back to the crossover?

Would the coil being partially unwound like this result in there only being a little bit of treble from the tweeter and nothing from the woofer, or is there perhaps something else going on with the crossover?

No, not as such**. A tiny change in the coil (i.e., shortening or uncoiling a little bit of it) will have a calculable change in the coil's inductance*. It might even be measurable, but it will be small.

Look for unintended short circuits or open connections.

If the coil's connected, and if the speaker's not working right, and if you bought it from a third party (i.e., used), that third party should be responsible unless they specifically disclaimed (declaimed?) responsibility for the shipment after it left their possession. I.e., https://www.shopify.com/encyclopedia/fob-shipping-point

________________
* A slight change in length will also result in a calculable change in the DC resistance of the inductor, but it will be very small.

** EDIT: Actually, come to think of it: Maybe. If there are multiple inductors in the crossover, changing the juxtaposition in space of the inductors can cause changes in their properties due to inductive coupling. The effects are very real and may well be measurable and audible, but I would think they'd also be fairly subtle.

Thus we try to orient chokes, coils, and transformers at right angles to each other whenever possible and/or to keep them fairly well separated in space. Note the arrangement of the two coils in the CSW Six XO photo I posted.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm

mhardy6647

maxward wrote: »

Yikes!

Yeah, but she works really quickly.