Flagship vs everything underneath
mantis
Posts: 16,029
in Electronics
What's up everyone?
I've been in the business and been a hobbyist for decades. One thing I have always gone for is the flagship model or as close as possible for no other reason then wanting the best I could afford.
If you think about receivers as a topic if you get the flagship your getting all the very best stuff of that line. When you step down from there you start to lose things and you might not be getting the very best. BUT at any point have you ever considered your over killing it and not using all the benefits from the flagship and spend a few dollars that could have been put somewhere else? I have an amazingly hard time with this thinking and always have to have the flagship model. My room isn't large, my speakers are easy to drive and I don't ever use 1/2 the features offered in the flagship model. So when I go to upgrade to the newer thing I get buyers remorse when even considering going with the model that actually suits all my needs and shut it off as a lesser model and go flagship.
I think this would make a great conversation to have on all things in our hobby. Tv's speakers sources wire etc.
What has your journey been like over the years you have been into this hobby? Have you ever questioned your decisions and even with the vast amount of knowledge we all have with the internet and our personal quests thought you might have made some stupid moves?
I've been in the business and been a hobbyist for decades. One thing I have always gone for is the flagship model or as close as possible for no other reason then wanting the best I could afford.
If you think about receivers as a topic if you get the flagship your getting all the very best stuff of that line. When you step down from there you start to lose things and you might not be getting the very best. BUT at any point have you ever considered your over killing it and not using all the benefits from the flagship and spend a few dollars that could have been put somewhere else? I have an amazingly hard time with this thinking and always have to have the flagship model. My room isn't large, my speakers are easy to drive and I don't ever use 1/2 the features offered in the flagship model. So when I go to upgrade to the newer thing I get buyers remorse when even considering going with the model that actually suits all my needs and shut it off as a lesser model and go flagship.
I think this would make a great conversation to have on all things in our hobby. Tv's speakers sources wire etc.
What has your journey been like over the years you have been into this hobby? Have you ever questioned your decisions and even with the vast amount of knowledge we all have with the internet and our personal quests thought you might have made some stupid moves?
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Comments
I think your entering into the laws of diminishing returns, which can vary for many. Personally, the way audio gear loses value, I'm always shopping the used and demo routes. Flagship gear from a few years ago is more attainable today. I think speakers is probably what most would chase after as a flagship piece. Lets face reality though, not many can afford it.
Stupid moves ? Bought my B&K 307 at retail price around 3 g's. Dumbest waist of money, not because of the product, but because of how quickly things change and make what once was a flagship into a piece of obsolesce. Almost overnight too.
Really depends on your needs, some like the name of a flagship piece without regard to the actual sound. Some could care less and sound is the only thing that matters. We all waste our money as we see fit and makes us happy. That's the beauty of having choices.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's
I personally don't care about paying for features that I won't use. I will pay for units that have higher quality parts and a better build.
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs
For me, dropping close to $4k on a streamer from the $799 I spent before it was crazy, but the return on investment was well worth it in my ears, and the Auralic's seem to hold their value very well.
Same for the Audioquest PC, went from a (retail - not what I paid) $1700k power conditioner/cable combo to a $6200 one, got a nice step up, was it over triple in return, nope. But still something I personally do not regret.
Alternatively, take my PS SGC, those are selling for 1/2 of retail (minty) or less very shortly after coming out/gaining popularity on this forum. I was lucky not to lose too much on that (nothing wrong with it, was just time for me to move on). some folks losing some coin on those.
In my humble opinion, there is more to be gained from spending on power/source/amplification than there is on speakers. There have been many on this forum (some not publicly stating so) that buy speakers that are pricey and sound phenomenal in the perfect environment (all kinds of upgrades on source/wires/power etc) only to get them home and not have that same magic. Some would be swayed from such experiences, but glad we have a nice community here to expand our knowledge base.
Denon DVD 2910
Quad 12L Active Monitors
Marin Logan Dynamo 700W
As far as HT goes, it is not my main priority, and I will buy from a reputable dealer when they are clearing out the older models and get the one that has the best feature set for the money I am willing to spend.
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
If I wanted a flagship model of an AVR, it would be a couple of years old, with a deep discount attached. I have a Yamaha RX-A2060. Running 9 speakers and have the fronts amped. The extra $300 or so for a little extra power rating and 2 speaker terminals that I won’t use wasn’t worth it. Bought it a couple of years after it was released, at 45 percent off MSRP. Good choice for me, others maybe not.
Subwoofers is probably another where the flagship model may be a bad choice. Not sure if that extra 1 or 2 Hz +/- 3dB is actually worth if if the model or 2 below is already at or close to 16 Hz. Like many others, I really don’t have room for some of those beasts in my room.
Tv’s, bought a 4K last year. Wasn’t the flagship, which was also 4K, but 8k is already out. Figure I’ll keep this one for at least 7 years. Should be about a year or so after 64K is released. May get the flagship 32K, if it’s 50 percent off or so, but again probably a bad product for flagship models. Sure some will disagree, but that’s my opinion.
The world of 2 channel audio has its issues also, almost always the price tag. Wait a year or two for the funds to buy the flagship product, or get one or two steps lower on that product that intergrated so well with your existing gear. Tough choice on that one, especially if you just demoed the non flagship model.
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+
Stuff for the Head
JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365
Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
Something more to great sound, than all the emphasis on clarity and detail and what most seem to be focusing on today.
Hearing that old system and the sheer musicality and natural sound it had, made me rethink what we are searching for.
(Speakers were EV-Six, mated to a vintage Kenwood Receiver)
We now own the EV speakers and still feel that maybe goals in sound have moved a bit sideways but not completely forward in all ways.
B+W-Sold
Electro Voice EV-SIX
Infinity-Sold
Advent-Now gone
Yamaha A-S801
Yamaha RX-V377
Yamaha RX-A860
Yamaha RX-A3060
Harman Kardon Hk-350i
Harman Kardon Hk-........
Harman Kardon PM-665
Harman Kardon HK-775
Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver
Sometimes KISS . . . Keep It Simple
PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
Rears Salk SuperCharged Surrounds
Source PSA PWT into NSD Supremo
Pre/Pro Integra DHC 40.1
LCD Samsung LN46B750
Mains Salk HT2-TL
Center Salk HT2C
Pre Cary SLP-05
Wires WW & MIT
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Tom
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
Sort of like -- did you know that there is no definition in the dictionary for gullible?
My toys have been items that have allowed me to get into the game, and then build from there. From cars & motorcycles, start with something basic, and then over time build em and customize em to where I want them to be. Even my bicycles are all custom built, from parts and components searched for over time.
Once completed, sure that is satisfying, but I ask myself, what's next! I look at my 59 Bel Air and admit that building that car was a lot more fun that just driving it!
I just love the journey. Sure it's better financially that way, you spend money over time, as the funds allow, but it also the dreaming, and aspiring to what they can be. To me that is the most compelling. Harder to do with electronics components themselves, but buying and selling pieces, and an occasional karma, is very rewarding too!
Getting the great deal, or sharing your journey with others, of components not needed anymore, that's what I'm all about!
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Now 2 channel stuff, I'm all about it, it's like a savings account that plays music.
I am kind of like verb in that I like to make things my own, which is why I went with twenty year old fully depreciated gear for my 2 channel system, have had alot of fun
"No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404
Seriously? That was too much skin? SMH ...
PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
Rears Salk SuperCharged Surrounds
Source PSA PWT into NSD Supremo
Pre/Pro Integra DHC 40.1
LCD Samsung LN46B750
Mains Salk HT2-TL
Center Salk HT2C
Pre Cary SLP-05
Wires WW & MIT
This is from Kelly "With all the issues of bickering and name calling and so on, with the forum, I asked the moderation people to remove my account and delete my posts."
I am not making this up.
But the posts aren't gone.
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404
I hope not. After Skip had all his posts removed I asked the mods to not do that anymore. Once a post is made, assuming it meets standards, it should be there as long as the forum is up.
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Tom
~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~
~ When the law ends, tyranny begins ~
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Well it hasn't happened yet, just an avatar change by the user...
Game Room HT: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology SM450; Definitive Technology LCR2000; Definitive Technology StudioMonitor350; Mirage Nanasats; Sub - HSU VTF-2 MK5
Master Bedroom
Cambridge Azur 551r; Definitive Technology promonitor 800; ACI Titan Subwoofer