Flagship vs everything underneath
mantis
Posts: 17,194
in Electronics
What's up everyone?
I've been in the business and been a hobbyist for decades. One thing I have always gone for is the flagship model or as close as possible for no other reason then wanting the best I could afford.
If you think about receivers as a topic if you get the flagship your getting all the very best stuff of that line. When you step down from there you start to lose things and you might not be getting the very best. BUT at any point have you ever considered your over killing it and not using all the benefits from the flagship and spend a few dollars that could have been put somewhere else? I have an amazingly hard time with this thinking and always have to have the flagship model. My room isn't large, my speakers are easy to drive and I don't ever use 1/2 the features offered in the flagship model. So when I go to upgrade to the newer thing I get buyers remorse when even considering going with the model that actually suits all my needs and shut it off as a lesser model and go flagship.
I think this would make a great conversation to have on all things in our hobby. Tv's speakers sources wire etc.
What has your journey been like over the years you have been into this hobby? Have you ever questioned your decisions and even with the vast amount of knowledge we all have with the internet and our personal quests thought you might have made some stupid moves?
I've been in the business and been a hobbyist for decades. One thing I have always gone for is the flagship model or as close as possible for no other reason then wanting the best I could afford.
If you think about receivers as a topic if you get the flagship your getting all the very best stuff of that line. When you step down from there you start to lose things and you might not be getting the very best. BUT at any point have you ever considered your over killing it and not using all the benefits from the flagship and spend a few dollars that could have been put somewhere else? I have an amazingly hard time with this thinking and always have to have the flagship model. My room isn't large, my speakers are easy to drive and I don't ever use 1/2 the features offered in the flagship model. So when I go to upgrade to the newer thing I get buyers remorse when even considering going with the model that actually suits all my needs and shut it off as a lesser model and go flagship.
I think this would make a great conversation to have on all things in our hobby. Tv's speakers sources wire etc.
What has your journey been like over the years you have been into this hobby? Have you ever questioned your decisions and even with the vast amount of knowledge we all have with the internet and our personal quests thought you might have made some stupid moves?
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Comments
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All depends, sometimes you buy a flagship model, or close to it, because of one thing that may be better. The rest of the bells and whistles might go unused. Receivers are a good example. Flagship models usually have more power to them, a few more connections options, etc. You may just want the power they offer and screw the rest.
I think your entering into the laws of diminishing returns, which can vary for many. Personally, the way audio gear loses value, I'm always shopping the used and demo routes. Flagship gear from a few years ago is more attainable today. I think speakers is probably what most would chase after as a flagship piece. Lets face reality though, not many can afford it.
Stupid moves ? Bought my B&K 307 at retail price around 3 g's. Dumbest waist of money, not because of the product, but because of how quickly things change and make what once was a flagship into a piece of obsolesce. Almost overnight too.
Really depends on your needs, some like the name of a flagship piece without regard to the actual sound. Some could care less and sound is the only thing that matters. We all waste our money as we see fit and makes us happy. That's the beauty of having choices.
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I think a lot of this depends on the brand(s) you're looking at. Some brands do a really good job of making sure each step up in a line are notable step ups. Other brands, especially with receivers, might use the same core sound components through a line but add additional features.If you think about receivers as a topic if you get the flagship your getting all the very best stuff of that line.
I personally don't care about paying for features that I won't use. I will pay for units that have higher quality parts and a better build.Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs -
Many factors for sure, and many different opinions as to what products/brands have the best rate of return for $$ spent.
For me, dropping close to $4k on a streamer from the $799 I spent before it was crazy, but the return on investment was well worth it in my ears, and the Auralic's seem to hold their value very well.
Same for the Audioquest PC, went from a (retail - not what I paid) $1700k power conditioner/cable combo to a $6200 one, got a nice step up, was it over triple in return, nope. But still something I personally do not regret.
Alternatively, take my PS SGC, those are selling for 1/2 of retail (minty) or less very shortly after coming out/gaining popularity on this forum. I was lucky not to lose too much on that (nothing wrong with it, was just time for me to move on). some folks losing some coin on those.
In my humble opinion, there is more to be gained from spending on power/source/amplification than there is on speakers. There have been many on this forum (some not publicly stating so) that buy speakers that are pricey and sound phenomenal in the perfect environment (all kinds of upgrades on source/wires/power etc) only to get them home and not have that same magic. Some would be swayed from such experiences, but glad we have a nice community here to expand our knowledge base. -
And by no means to I own any flagship stuff.
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Flagship for me is the best I can afford at the time. I've always looked at equipment as a want instead of a need. Many times I've had to sell something to pay a bill. Fortunately that hasn't had to happen in quite some time. With that said I'm finally starting to move out of the mid-fi world. Dam-n good stuff is expensive.
PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Preamp
Denon DVD 2910
Quad 12L Active Monitors
Marin Logan Dynamo 700W -
I also tend to look for the best, but I wait for it to become available as lovingly preowned pieces before I move on it. That is how I have my X0.2 and my Goldfinger V2... no way in hell would I pay 16k for a cartridge, but less than 3k from someone that wants to give it away? I will take that deal.
As far as HT goes, it is not my main priority, and I will buy from a reputable dealer when they are clearing out the older models and get the one that has the best feature set for the money I am willing to spend.
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I would get a flagship model if I were to keep it for a really long period or forever. I did it with the stereo system recently. I have not had courage to put together the total that I have spent on the system, but every time I listen to the music, it is just satisfying and enjoyable. I do agree on getting the high end stuff from reputable sellers if that helps save some money. I have done that many times and so far no regrets whatsoever.
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AVR’s, since ATMOS, there really wasn’t an upgrade to get the latest and greatest. The newer versions may have a better calibration program, but much like most things, if you never heard it, you won’t miss it. As far as sound quality, there probably little to no improvement in the top three offerings of any manufacturer. Might be 10 or 20 watts of additional power rating, but that is a good reason to ignore power ratings.
If I wanted a flagship model of an AVR, it would be a couple of years old, with a deep discount attached. I have a Yamaha RX-A2060. Running 9 speakers and have the fronts amped. The extra $300 or so for a little extra power rating and 2 speaker terminals that I won’t use wasn’t worth it. Bought it a couple of years after it was released, at 45 percent off MSRP. Good choice for me, others maybe not.
Subwoofers is probably another where the flagship model may be a bad choice. Not sure if that extra 1 or 2 Hz +/- 3dB is actually worth if if the model or 2 below is already at or close to 16 Hz. Like many others, I really don’t have room for some of those beasts in my room.
Tv’s, bought a 4K last year. Wasn’t the flagship, which was also 4K, but 8k is already out. Figure I’ll keep this one for at least 7 years. Should be about a year or so after 64K is released. May get the flagship 32K, if it’s 50 percent off or so, but again probably a bad product for flagship models. Sure some will disagree, but that’s my opinion.
The world of 2 channel audio has its issues also, almost always the price tag. Wait a year or two for the funds to buy the flagship product, or get one or two steps lower on that product that intergrated so well with your existing gear. Tough choice on that one, especially if you just demoed the non flagship model.
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If your referring to AVR's just hold out on the Flagship model a year, you will be able to get it at half price, or you could pay full price for the new flagship model that took last years flagship models place. Wash rinse repeat.Home Theater
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+
Stuff for the Head
JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365
Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
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In 2008 I bought the "flagship" Sony ES5300, now 12 years old. Flawless from day 1.Also bought an Emotiva XPA5 Gen 1 in 2009,also solid, runs cool, for my needs and hearing ability age 73. I am good with it.
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A very humbling experience, was being exposed to a nice vintage system from the mid 1960's, and having the most memorable and enjoyable listening experience of my audio lifetime.
Something more to great sound, than all the emphasis on clarity and detail and what most seem to be focusing on today.
Hearing that old system and the sheer musicality and natural sound it had, made me rethink what we are searching for.
(Speakers were EV-Six, mated to a vintage Kenwood Receiver)
We now own the EV speakers and still feel that maybe goals in sound have moved a bit sideways but not completely forward in all ways. -
A very humbling experience, was being exposed to a nice vintage system ...
Sometimes KISS . . . Keep It SimpleAC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampizator Baltic 4 DAC
Pre Cary SLP-05
Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
Mains Salk HT2-TL
Rythmik F12 -
What the last S ?
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‘Stupid’ is the way I learned it. Keep it simple, stupid.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Yes, we know Bud. That was said in jest.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
They were keepin' it simple.
Sort of like -- did you know that there is no definition in the dictionary for gullible?
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Interesting thread. I thought about this a bit, and did some reflection. I'm pretty much a journey type of guy. Never really gone for the flagship, except for the Mrs of course!
My toys have been items that have allowed me to get into the game, and then build from there. From cars & motorcycles, start with something basic, and then over time build em and customize em to where I want them to be. Even my bicycles are all custom built, from parts and components searched for over time.
Once completed, sure that is satisfying, but I ask myself, what's next! I look at my 59 Bel Air and admit that building that car was a lot more fun that just driving it!
I just love the journey. Sure it's better financially that way, you spend money over time, as the funds allow, but it also the dreaming, and aspiring to what they can be. To me that is the most compelling. Harder to do with electronics components themselves, but buying and selling pieces, and an occasional karma, is very rewarding too!
Getting the great deal, or sharing your journey with others, of components not needed anymore, that's what I'm all about!
Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
And we love you for that Dave.
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I have a hard time in investing in things that only stay current for a few years. I picked up my rxa3070 on the Adorama deal and sold the lsim set... Free 2,000 dollar receiver, that is more my speed with something that will be worth nothing in five years.
Now 2 channel stuff, I'm all about it, it's like a savings account that plays music.
I am kind of like verb in that I like to make things my own, which is why I went with twenty year old fully depreciated gear for my 2 channel system, have had alot of fun- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
K_M has been banned?
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Don’t think so. Just her avatar.Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampizator Baltic 4 DAC
Pre Cary SLP-05
Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
Mains Salk HT2-TL
Rythmik F12 -
Don’t think so. Just her avatar.
This is from Kelly "With all the issues of bickering and name calling and so on, with the forum, I asked the moderation people to remove my account and delete my posts."
I am not making this up. -
Don’t think so. Just her avatar.
This is from Kelly "With all the issues of bickering and name calling and so on, with the forum, I asked the moderation people to remove my account and delete my posts."
I am not making this up.
But the posts aren't gone.
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She simply changed her profile picture.Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
mhardy6647 wrote: »Don’t think so. Just her avatar.
This is from Kelly "With all the issues of bickering and name calling and so on, with the forum, I asked the moderation people to remove my account and delete my posts."
I am not making this up.
But the posts aren't gone.
I hope not. After Skip had all his posts removed I asked the mods to not do that anymore. Once a post is made, assuming it meets standards, it should be there as long as the forum is up.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I hope they headed your advice, Bud. I really do.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Well, the more people who request that then the better the odds it gets adopted.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Don’t think so. Just her avatar.
This is from Kelly "With all the issues of bickering and name calling and so on, with the forum, I asked the moderation people to remove my account and delete my posts."
I am not making this up.
Well it hasn't happened yet, just an avatar change by the user...Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
No, she has informed me that the Mods have not yet acted on her request.
