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The LaScalas and their gussied-up cousins the Belle Klipsch (named for Paul's wife) are best avoided unless you have a paint removal project pending
Sig materialPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
The LaScalas and their gussied-up cousins the Belle Klipsch (named for Paul's wife) are best avoided unless you have a paint removal project pending
Sig material
And, yet, I've heard some of these with very heavy mods powered by quality tube gear and they sound incredible. Got me looking for a pair to work on. -
The LaScalas and their gussied-up cousins the Belle Klipsch (named for Paul's wife) are best avoided unless you have a paint removal project pending
Sig material
Not original to me, though -- adapted from Tom Brenner's pithy assessment of the LaScalas. He also likens their musical presentation to that of a Sawzall.
Tom is a pretty astute judge of loudspeakers. Heck, he's a pretty astute judge of a lot of things.
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The LaScalas and their gussied-up cousins the Belle Klipsch (named for Paul's wife) are best avoided unless you have a paint removal project pending
Sig material
And, yet, I've heard some of these with very heavy mods powered by quality tube gear and they sound incredible. Got me looking for a pair to work on.
Yup -- many of those very heavy mods (especially in the case of the Heresy and the Corny) leave little of the original loudspeaker but some of the wood, the grille cloth, and some of the fasteners. And I am not being facetious.
I do want to be very clear -- I could live with even a bone stock pair of K-horns (of most any era), again with top quality* amplification (preferably but not necessarily vacuum tube) -- but, as I mentioned earlier, these, too, benefit greatly from replacement of the MR horn and driver and tweeter, as well as profound XO modification.
And, to my ears and taste, most any good Altec loudspeakers trounce 'em all.
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* The trick with high-sensitivity loudspeakers like the K-horns, IMO, is to use an amp with outstanding performance at very low output power levels. Almost all listening with a K-horn (104 dB SPL at 1 meter for 1 watt electrical power input) will be with one watt or less -- often much less! -- of input power. The rise of popularity of low-ish-sensitivity loudspeakers (initially, Villchur's acoustic suspension alignments) and cheap power amplification led to a de-emphasis of amp performance at very low output power, and it shows (again, IMO), big time, with loudspeakers like the heritage Klipschs.
(sorry for the sermon!)
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Mhardy, you are awesome! I really appreciate your insights. If one elected to go the Altec route but was hesitant to jump in with both feet in a financial sense (e.g, there were some Model 19 s on CL for $3,500) what would be a good starter Altec speaker?
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pelhamplace wrote: »Mhardy, you are awesome! I really appreciate your insights. If one elected to go the Altec route but was hesitant to jump in with both feet in a financial sense (e.g, there were some Model 19 s on CL for $3,500) what would be a good starter Altec speaker?
Well, shucks
In seriousness, don't forget -- I can only offer my opinions on this stuff. A pair of Cornwalls in good working order for 600 smackers or so would not be a bad thing to experience (e.g.)
Now, to address your Altec question (Altec enabler that I am**) OK, I'll let you in on a little secret
The canonical answer would probably be "A" series Valencias (the 16 ohm variant), especially for vintage and/or fleapower vacuum tube amplification.
BTDT*
Not inexpensive, though (the value is in the drivers, especially the 416 woofers).
... and the big problem is -- very limited bass extension (this is an understatement, truth be told
)
P1020753 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
The problem is that the small bass reflex cabinets for home use do a profound disservice to the "Voice of the Theater" type woofers. These woofers want to be in "Voice of the Theater" cabinets -- which are (as you probably know) pretty big and not exactly beautiful (well, I think they are, but they are a bit short on WAF, as they say).
But, but, but...
Altec made a series of loudspeakers a lot like the bass reflex 'classics' but with a woofer designed for sealed box alignments (the "Dynamic Force" series woofers -- 411 and 414). These woofers, in the aforementioned sealed boxes, are a bit less sensitive (maybe 3 dB?) than the classic Altec woofers. This totally scuttled the panache of these models with the Altec purists (and still does!) So, they tend to be significantly more affordable than the 'collectible' Altec home loudspeakers.
They also have considerably better bass performance, and are competitive overall and otherwise -- other than being a tad less sensitive (still fine with a few good quality watts).
OK, OK, to get right down to the point. I picked up a pair of Altec Santiagos on the local (MA) CL for 200 smackers (with the help of an Audiokarma member who tipped me off and actually procured them for me, since I was out of town at the time!).
I ultimately sold the Valencias for the $1k I had in them -- but I kept the Santiagos
Still have 'em, in fact -- it's always good to have some spares.
santiago by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
TL, DR executive summary: Find and try a pair of Altec 878A or B Santiagos
source: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/home-speakers/878a.htm
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* I had a nice pair of Valencias; when I got them, my plan was to A/B them carefully with the Cornwalls, using single-ended 2A3 amplifiers (Bottlehead Paramours monoblocks) but after listening to them for about 10 minutes... I lugged the Cornies down to the basement and fomented plans to sell them
** "We" have a nice forum someplace else you might want to look at
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?forums/high-efficiency.21/ -
Oh, I should probably say something about the Nineteens
The Nineteen was probably the ultimate incarnation of a home version (barely!) of the Voice of the Theater They are big, heavy and expensive. They're also quite good (the guy with the highly modified K-horns also had a very nice and very stock pair of Nineteens, which also sounded mighty nice).
Speaking of "that" line of big Altec home speakers, a pair of Altec Fifteens might be a fine, affordable option to dip one's toes in the Altec thing.
The Altec Fifteen uses a 12 inch woofer and the somewhat famous Altec 32 "bent" horn (a direct descendant of the truly famed Western Electric 32 horn) with an Altec compression driver (probably an 806 or 808? I am not sure offhand). The plastic morph of the 32 is held in pretty darned high regard in certain circles*
Not sure how easy or hard a pair of Fifteens would be to find, but they should be reasonably affordable (compared to Nineteens or real VOTs!) and should be pretty darned nice to listen to, too!
Again, though, these are cut from very different cloth than the classic/vintage Polks.
HTH, as they say.
source: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/catalogs/1978-home.htm
bent altecs with RH drivers by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Altec "32A" (aluminum) and "32C" (plastic) bent horns
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I used a pair of Altec Santana's for many years. I liked them, but they were eventually replaced by a pair of RT800i's. Obviously, a much different speakers. The Altecs were better for music, much less so for front speakers in a surround system.
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Mhardy, fantastic information. Thank you very much! I think I am going to go down the rabbit hole on Altecs. Great Plains Audio is located in Oklahoma City and is a great resource for all things Altec.
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If you like the sound of your Polks then you may want to stay with something that has a similar smooth sound like vintage ADS. I've had several pair of Klipsch and Altec speakers come and go here and I could never warm to their horn sound. I still keep a pair of khorns around but I really haven't listened to them in months now. My favorite non sda Polks are a pair of ADS 1530's which are my all day listeners and do not fatigue my ears the way the horns do.
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I used a pair of Altec Santana's for many years. I liked them, but they were eventually replaced by a pair of RT800i's. Obviously, a much different speakers. The Altecs were better for music, much less so for front speakers in a surround system.
Well, the Santana was cut from a different cloth than the big boy Altecs, having a cone tweeter. The original Santana (879A) was still fairly interesting, as it used one of the "extended range" dual-compliance Altec 420 15 inch Biflex drivers as a woofer, and a well made Altec cone tweeter.
source: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/catalogs/1975-home.htm
(borrowed image from the internet via google)
The Santana II used a much more generic OEM cone tweeter (at least some versions used the nearly-ubiquitous CTS phenolic surround cone tweeter, as seen in the borrowed photo below) and a relatively ordinary 12 inch woofer (not sure if it was Altec or a CTS or other OEM driver) and was pretty... umm... not great.
(borrowed image)
@jimbo18's appear to me to be the 879A (original) Santanas
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motorstereo wrote: »If you like the sound of your Polks then you may want to stay with something that has a similar smooth sound like vintage ADS. I've had several pair of Klipsch and Altec speakers come and go here and I could never warm to their horn sound. I still keep a pair of khorns around but I really haven't listened to them in months now. My favorite non sda Polks are a pair of ADS 1530's which are my all day listeners and do not fatigue my ears the way the horns do.
I managed to forget ads loudspeakers?!?
Derp. Ooops.
Yeah, good call.
FWIW, I tend to like the smaller ones than the bigger ones, but that might just be me.
The L-710 was and is a personal fave. (again FWIW), I find the newer/larger ads to be not as smooth as the older/smaller models, but, yeah, they're all much, much smoother and easier to listen to than the Heritage Klipschs (to me)
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@mhardy6647 879A is correct. Never saw another driver like that one
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@mhardy6647 879A is correct. Never saw another driver like that one
There were several 12" and 15" Biflex drivers -- I... ahem... happen to have a gorgeous pair of green (IIRC) 415 Biflex 15" drivers in the basement
They were on sale for a reasonable price at one of the local antique radio/hifi/electronics get-togethers some years back -- I couldn't resist them
Others, most notably Fukuin/Pioneer, also made "full range" (extended range) drivers using that dual surround compliance trick. The Pioneer 6-1/2" and 8" drivers (PIM-6 and PIM-8) are quite nice little rascals, actually (and prices reflect it). "Great for tube amps" Lafayette sold the 8" Pioneer as their "SK-98" driver for some years.
Pioneer LRE biflexes by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Note that the Altecs even added a metal dustcap, to improve the treble extension on their huge "Biflex" drivers a little bit more
Now, @Jimbo, see what you made me do!
Sorry, @pelhamplace, for the digression
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Motorstereo: thanks for the info on the ADS 1530. They look pretty interesting. I will definitely check them out.
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@mhardy6647: great info. Feel like I’m drinking from a firehose!
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Well, if you ever decide you want the scoop on all things Altec (and most things JBL, EV, etc.), there's a fellow on audiokarma known as bowtie427ss. That man knows his stuff.
(Fortunately for me, there are also a fair number of Altec gurus in northern New England)
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mhardy6647 wrote: »The LaScalas and their gussied-up cousins the Belle Klipsch (named for Paul's wife) are best avoided unless you have a paint removal project pending
Sig material
And, yet, I've heard some of these with very heavy mods powered by quality tube gear and they sound incredible. Got me looking for a pair to work on.
Yup -- many of those very heavy mods (especially in the case of the Heresy and the Corny) leave little of the original loudspeaker but some of the wood, the grille cloth, and some of the fasteners. And I am not being facetious.
I do want to be very clear -- I could live with even a bone stock pair of K-horns (of most any era), again with top quality* amplification (preferably but not necessarily vacuum tube) -- but, as I mentioned earlier, these, too, benefit greatly from replacement of the MR horn and driver and tweeter, as well as profound XO modification.
And, to my ears and taste, most any good Altec loudspeakers trounce 'em all.
_______________
* The trick with high-sensitivity loudspeakers like the K-horns, IMO, is to use an amp with outstanding performance at very low output power levels. Almost all listening with a K-horn (104 dB SPL at 1 meter for 1 watt electrical power input) will be with one watt or less -- often much less! -- of input power. The rise of popularity of low-ish-sensitivity loudspeakers (initially, Villchur's acoustic suspension alignments) and cheap power amplification led to a de-emphasis of amp performance at very low output power, and it shows (again, IMO), big time, with loudspeakers like the heritage Klipschs.
(sorry for the sermon!)
I always appreciate your input and I'm curious where the Altecs are price wise compared with the Klipsch. Seems the Altecs I've seen that are coveted are all pretty costly. I do admit that it's usually things I see in passing on the Klipsch Forum. Am i correct in assuming that they aren't as widely available, and, considerably higher? -
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I always appreciate your input and I'm curious where the Altecs are price wise compared with the Klipsch. Seems the Altecs I've seen that are coveted are all pretty costly. I do admit that it's usually things I see in passing on the Klipsch Forum. Am i correct in assuming that they aren't as widely available, and, considerably higher?
On the average, Altec domestic loudspeakers on the used/vintage market are more expensive than Klipsch, yes -- but the home speakers from Altec are less common and more varied (and complicated) in in terms models and lines. Plus, many Altec components were put into custom cabinetry. Klipsch had the same five for decades, then eventually added the Chorus and a little later things got complicated.
There's simply no comparison in the quality of the drivers (and, in many cases the cabinetry) between Klipsch & Altec, though (ii.e., one gets what one pays for).
EDIT: Interestingly, in the early days, Klipsch's clever folded corner horn designs were widely licensed to other manufacturers and sold as kit enclosures to be stuffed with the purchaser's drivers and XO of choice (e.g., the Electrovoice "Aristocrat" enclosure)
source: http://www.hifilit.com/Electro-Voice/Electro-Voice.htm
If you look closely at this so-so quality scan from "hifilit", you'll see the words "Klispch Licensed" under For 12 inch speakers...
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Agreed, it’s pretty easy to get a handle on the Klipsch heritage line. Altec seems a little more confusing plus there are a lot of dyi projects using Altec parts.
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OK, one more old-school/Klipsch digression, then I'll let "us" get back to more on-topic loudspeaker options for the OP!
Some more examples of Klipsch folded-horn licensed enclosures from 1958.
From the Allied Radio catalog
http://www.alliedcatalogs.com/html/1958-170/
source:
Electrovoice (EV) even made a special woofer designed for the Klipsch folded horns -- the formidable EV 15WK (K for Klipsch). Beefy woofers, then and now
They made an 18WK (18 inch, too)
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I'll suggest Newform Research R8's or others from them. The ribbon tweeter is amazing. The R8 with 8" woofer doesn't really need a sub. The smaller models could use a sub.
My 2 cents and recommendation on early Heresy I. If the horns have not been replaced, they should not be tilted up, and sound best flat on a carpeted floor. This helps tone down the harshness IMO and they sound petty good and not fatiguing. A little bass boost around 50Hz or lower helps as does corner placement. They play just about anything well, but the sound and stage is very forward. A larger room helps with greater listening distance from the speakers. Reflections can also be a problem. -
Maybe I missed this but, what does your budget look like? You might keep a eye out for somthing from the klipsch kg line. Especially if you are on a budget and just want somthing the play around with. Went to a pawn store yesterday and i saw some heresys for 500. I then turned around and saw some kg4s for 100. I got the kg4s for 80 and so far im fairly impressed. Not in the same leauge as the sda but still very good. Good enough Im considering the upgades.
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With the current Adorama deals I’d just get some LSiM’s and figure it’s the best bang for the buck out there currently.
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@pkquat: good information on the Heresy. I haven't seen many Heresy speakers for sale locally (Dallas). It's interesting, a lot of people prefer the Hersey over the Cornwall.
@windstriker: I'm really looking to fill in two gaps. I need a high efficiency speaker for a flea amp and I'm going to be modding my SDA 2s so i need something to fill in for the interim. The budget is up to $1100 for the high efficiency (if I get Cornwall I) and maybe $400 for the interim solution. -
I'll suggest Newform Research R8's or others from them. The ribbon tweeter is amazing. The R8 with 8" woofer doesn't really need a sub. The smaller models could use a sub.
My 2 cents and recommendation on early Heresy I. If the horns have not been replaced, they should not be tilted up, and sound best flat on a carpeted floor. This helps tone down the harshness IMO and they sound petty good and not fatiguing. A little bass boost around 50Hz or lower helps as does corner placement. They play just about anything well, but the sound and stage is very forward. A larger room helps with greater listening distance from the speakers. Reflections can also be a problem.
My Newform Research r645's won a speaker shoot out twice last year. They went against my Polk srs2's and Triton Ones. Now the Triton Ones weren't set up properly so...
But still, the ribbons he makes for the r645s are very nice sounding!
pic. from the web.
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
@dromunds: followed up on your suggestion. Spent about an hour finding the deal on the Andorama website. Almost pulled the trigger, but decided to stay with vintage. Thanks
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@dromunds: went back and pulled the trigger on a pair of 705s. Couldn’t help it. My remaining gap is a high efficiency speaker(s) for my flea amp.
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pelhamplace wrote: »@dromunds: went back and pulled the trigger on a pair of 705s. Couldn’t help it. My remaining gap is a high efficiency speaker(s) for my flea amp.
Did I ask you where you were, regionally speaking? If you're in the US Northeast someplace, and feel like a road trip, I can lend you a pair of something to try if you'd like. Heck, if you can rationalize using a subwoofer, I have some small Fostex-loaded speakers that are small & light enough to ship for a 'demo'.
e.g.,
049 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/fostex-p1000e-diy-kanspea-4-full-range-speaker-kit-pair/
Contact me "off line" if either above mentioned gambit's of potential interest -- I am not up for shipping the Santiagos for a demo, though
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pelhamplace wrote: »@dromunds: went back and pulled the trigger on a pair of 705s. Couldn’t help it. My remaining gap is a high efficiency speaker(s) for my flea amp.
Good to hear! Give them a long break-in time, I almost sent my (first pair of) 703's back when I first played them because they sounded like crap, but then after a long break-in period they started to really shine. Those LSiM deals on Adorama are unbelievable. Free shipping.
