How do you guys like your PS Audio Stellar S300 amps ?
Comments
-
...
That's not how I read that statement. The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
...
No. I'm sorry, but that is simply not correct [slight edit applied]. It IS true that a single-ended amplifier will not cancel out even-order harmonic distortion; but it doesn' t matter whether the amplifier uses vacuum tube or solid state active devices. It is true that even-order distortion is euphonic. It is further true that push-pull amplifiers cancel out even order distortion -- again, regardless of whether the active devices are solid state or vacuum tubes.
Odd-order harmonic distortion is unpleasant (non-musical, so to speak) and is objectionable at far lower levels (percent of total signal) than are even-order harmonics. The (so called) second harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental -- which is why it sounds pleasant (euphonic).
Vacuum tubes do have very different behavior as they go from linear to nonlinear operation (clipping) -- they tend to compress as they go nonlinear; transistors are typically much more brick wall as they go into clipping -- but this is irrespective of amplifier operating "class".
-
'Organic': often used in describing the sound of vinyl playback...good or bad. I honestly don't know: Skip, do you utilize a turntable?Whatever the reason, its simply more organic."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
mhardy6647 wrote: »...
That's not how I read that statement. The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
...
No. I'm sorry, but that is simply not correct [slight edit applied]. It IS true that a single-ended amplifier will not cancel out even-order harmonic distortion; but it doesn' t matter whether the amplifier uses vacuum tube or solid state active devices. It is true that even-order distortion is euphonic. It is further true that push-pull amplifiers cancel out even order distortion -- again, regardless of whether the active devices are solid state or vacuum tubes.
Odd-order harmonic distortion is unpleasant (non-musical, so to speak) and is objectionable at far lower levels (percent of total signal) than are even-order harmonics. The (so called) second harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental -- which is why it sounds pleasant (euphonic).
Vacuum tubes do have very different behavior as they go from linear to nonlinear operation (clipping) -- they tend to compress as they go nonlinear; transistors are typically much more brick wall as they go into clipping -- but this is irrespective of amplifier operating "class".
So, what did I say that wasn't true? -
joecoulson wrote: »Thread derail complete.
Bottom line, PS A class D amps are an absolute bargain for the performance.
I recommended them highly to the OP
And why is it practically ever time a conversation takes a slight turn someone wants to start complaining about a derail. Are we that much of a Na-z-i community that we can't tolerate a thread taking a slight turn? Everything posted is still amp related. Do we need to make rules that no one other than the OP can speak of anything else but the exact line of the original post?Post edited by kharp1 on -
-
joecoulson wrote: »Thread derail complete.
Bottom line, PS A class D amps are an absolute bargain for the performance.
I recommended them highly to the OP
Interesting discussion thus far!
Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »...
That's not how I read that statement. The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
...
No. I'm sorry, but that is simply not correct [slight edit applied]. It IS true that a single-ended amplifier will not cancel out even-order harmonic distortion; but it doesn' t matter whether the amplifier uses vacuum tube or solid state active devices. It is true that even-order distortion is euphonic. It is further true that push-pull amplifiers cancel out even order distortion -- again, regardless of whether the active devices are solid state or vacuum tubes.
Odd-order harmonic distortion is unpleasant (non-musical, so to speak) and is objectionable at far lower levels (percent of total signal) than are even-order harmonics. The (so called) second harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental -- which is why it sounds pleasant (euphonic).
Vacuum tubes do have very different behavior as they go from linear to nonlinear operation (clipping) -- they tend to compress as they go nonlinear; transistors are typically much more brick wall as they go into clipping -- but this is irrespective of amplifier operating "class".
So, what did I say that wasn't true?
You said:
That isn't true, full stop -- as I went on to explain.The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
For whatever reason, lots of people seem to conflate the THD spectra of SE vs. PP amplifier topologies (i.e., Class A vs. Class AB or Class B topologoies) with the harmonoic distortion spectra of tubes vs solid state -- and that is a misapprehension.
-
The brand was H2O and the amps were the S100 and S250. It looks like they have been talked about prior on the forum, albeit 12 years ago.
There was a guy on AK who had one for a while. He's something of a flavor of the month kinda guy in terms of componentry (although perhaps not of the sound he seeks), as perusal of his history there will show. He buys stuff, talks it up, then sells it and buys different stuff (as best I can tell).
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/whats-your-hidden-gem.844126/page-2#post-12113768
EDIT: FWIW
From the for sale ad for the above-mentioned amplifier (October 2018):This is a reference quality amp, that has developed a reputation of fantasitc sound, and the ability to drive any speaker out there. The designer uses Apogee Scintillia as his reference speaker, and this amp is built to handle that 1 ohm load.
This is a Class D amplifier capable of outputting 250 WPC and 40 amps of current. This is the signature version that uses dual stack toroidal transformers, and improved bypass caps and internal wire. This amp has the mids of a quality tube amplifier, yet has control of the bass the way a quality solid state amp has. Here is the whole story from 6 Moons
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/h2o2/1.html -
mhardy6647 wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »...
That's not how I read that statement. The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
...
No. I'm sorry, but that is simply not correct [slight edit applied]. It IS true that a single-ended amplifier will not cancel out even-order harmonic distortion; but it doesn' t matter whether the amplifier uses vacuum tube or solid state active devices. It is true that even-order distortion is euphonic. It is further true that push-pull amplifiers cancel out even order distortion -- again, regardless of whether the active devices are solid state or vacuum tubes.
Odd-order harmonic distortion is unpleasant (non-musical, so to speak) and is objectionable at far lower levels (percent of total signal) than are even-order harmonics. The (so called) second harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental -- which is why it sounds pleasant (euphonic).
Vacuum tubes do have very different behavior as they go from linear to nonlinear operation (clipping) -- they tend to compress as they go nonlinear; transistors are typically much more brick wall as they go into clipping -- but this is irrespective of amplifier operating "class".
So, what did I say that wasn't true?
You said:
That isn't true, full stop -- as I went on to explain.The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
For whatever reason, lots of people seem to conflate the THD spectra of SE vs. PP amplifier topologies (i.e., Class A vs. Class AB or Class B topologoies) with the harmonoic distortion spectra of tubes vs solid state -- and that is a misapprehension.
Thank you for the clarification, you're in depth analysis is always appreciated. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »...
That's not how I read that statement. The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
...
No. I'm sorry, but that is simply not correct [slight edit applied]. It IS true that a single-ended amplifier will not cancel out even-order harmonic distortion; but it doesn' t matter whether the amplifier uses vacuum tube or solid state active devices. It is true that even-order distortion is euphonic. It is further true that push-pull amplifiers cancel out even order distortion -- again, regardless of whether the active devices are solid state or vacuum tubes.
Odd-order harmonic distortion is unpleasant (non-musical, so to speak) and is objectionable at far lower levels (percent of total signal) than are even-order harmonics. The (so called) second harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly one octave above the fundamental -- which is why it sounds pleasant (euphonic).
Vacuum tubes do have very different behavior as they go from linear to nonlinear operation (clipping) -- they tend to compress as they go nonlinear; transistors are typically much more brick wall as they go into clipping -- but this is irrespective of amplifier operating "class".
So, what did I say that wasn't true?
You said:
That isn't true, full stop -- as I went on to explain.The harmonics that tubes distort are the even harmonics, which are far more pleasing to the ear.
For whatever reason, lots of people seem to conflate the THD spectra of SE vs. PP amplifier topologies (i.e., Class A vs. Class AB or Class B topologoies) with the harmonoic distortion spectra of tubes vs solid state -- and that is a misapprehension.
Thank you for the clarification, you're in depth analysis is always appreciated.
De nada.
-
Mmmmm mmm
-
This was good. I really liked his comparison with the Parasound at the end.
Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs -
I would like to know how long his break in period was. It's my understanding that a few hundred hours of break in produces considerable results in sound refinement, especially in the particular areas he pointed out as somewhat troubling.
-
Agreed. I will attest to some of the deficiencies he noted seemingly disappeared within a month or less of listening. The highs definitely become just super sweet and articulate after the break in. Midrange always seemed perfect since day one. As did the bass.
-
I wonder what's breaking in with a Class D amplifier -- capacitors, I reckon?
-
I would like to know how long his break in period was. It's my understanding that a few hundred hours of break in produces considerable results in sound refinement, especially in the particular areas he pointed out as somewhat troubling.
Ask him in the comments. Sean is normally pretty good about responding on recent videos.Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs -
Another issue I have with these reviews is they always mention the Pre/DAC, but, I don't think I've ever seen a review of the actual DAC performance. Same went for the Parasound P5. Only mentions of the DAC, like look at what all you get for X amount, but, no real review of the DAC performance. The P5 had pathetic DAC integration.
-
Inner fidelity discussed the DAC in their review closer to the release. Their review treated the SGC as a headphone amp/dac vs a preamp.Another issue I have with these reviews is they always mention the Pre/DAC, but, I don't think I've ever seen a review of the actual DAC performance. Same went for the Parasound P5. Only mentions of the DAC, like look at what all you get for X amount, but, no real review of the DAC performance. The P5 had pathetic DAC integration.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dac-sound-qualityAnalog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs -
Great review from zero fidelity! I’ve spent about a month with the M700’s, and I haven’t experienced forward sounding or rough treble at all. But I certainly agree these lack refinement in the top end. I’ve noticed some lack of detail in the treble, but it still remains smooth. So far these are very powerful amps, with great 3D imaging. I hate to say most of the deficiencies in sound may be coming from the DAC/PRE. Alot of the rave reviews I’ve read, people are using different preamps. I’m still enjoying them, and hope they continue to break in and give me that last bit of detail I’ve been missing. Will spend some time with them this weekend, been busy enjoying our Canadian Rockies this summer!2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
The DAC has just about level performance with the CXN V2 I had. Very good, ,but definitely not top shelf. I really couldn’t hear too much difference. Eternal the two when I a/b tested them side by side.
The Vega DAC I have now shows me what I was missing, but I believe the preamp function of the stellar pre is very good. It’s letting so much more of the music through than I heard before.
So using the stack without the included DAC for me is producing incredible results. -
Took the plunge ...
Gonna use it on the Salks ....
Should be here sometime next week ......
I appreciate everyone’s input.....
BKPS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO -
Your gonna LOVE IT!!
Congrats brahh! -
Yes, congrats! I'm especially interested to hear your thoughts compared to the EX-442."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
I know we have a lot of fans for the Stellar series here. Their new Stellar preamp was officially announced: https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-phono-preamplifier/
Seems like they are really pushing to get that true full PS Audio system out sooner than later. I know they've already discussed smaller speakers with the AN2 and AN3. I wouldn't be shocked to see a Stellar streamer as their next announcement. With the Stellar line you could probably go from your power outlet to your ears with 100% PSA gear for under $20k, including vinyl and digital, probably by 2021 at this rate.Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs -
Great review from zero fidelity! I’ve spent about a month with the M700’s, and I haven’t experienced forward sounding or rough treble at all. But I certainly agree these lack refinement in the top end. I’ve noticed some lack of detail in the treble, but it still remains smooth. So far these are very powerful amps, with great 3D imaging. I hate to say most of the deficiencies in sound may be coming from the DAC/PRE. Alot of the rave reviews I’ve read, people are using different preamps. I’m still enjoying them, and hope they continue to break in and give me that last bit of detail I’ve been missing. Will spend some time with them this weekend, been busy enjoying our Canadian Rockies this summer!
I think the HF behavior of Class D amps is gonna be baked in by dint of the way they operate (i.e., their need for a sharp low-pass filter to make sure we don't hear 'the man behind the curtain'
in the ultrasonic frequency range). If one looks at the THD+N curves as a function of frequency and output power, they look qualitatively quite different than a Class A or AB amplifier. It is easy to imagine that (despite the relative unimportance of THD per se in amplifier 'sound' IMO/IME!) the difference in behavior could well alter the sound of a Class D amp vis-a-vis a Class A or AB amp.
e.g., from Stereophile's review of the M700 amp.
some sample data from the review:The unbalanced input impedance was close to the specified 50k ohms, measuring 47k ohms at low and middle frequencies, and dropping inconsequentially to 35k ohms at the top of the audioband. The balanced input impedance was twice the unbalanced impedance, as expected. The output impedance (including 6' of speaker cable) was low, at 0.1 ohm at 20Hz and 1kHz. However, the output impedance was actually negative at the top of the audioband, perhaps due to the behavior of the necessary low-pass filter. The action of this filter can be seen in fig.1, which rolls off the output very sharply above 50kHz, with the actual frequency of the response "knee" dependent on the load impedance. The variation in frequency response into our standard simulated loudspeaker was small, at less than ±0.1dB (fig.1, gray trace), but there is an implication of an ultrasonic resonance developing with loads of higher impedance. This gave rise to a small degree of overshoot and one cycle of damped ringing with a 10kHz squarewave (fig.2).
"Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements#O7wgQGefp6EkBRqF.99 "
"Fig.5 PS Audio Stellar M700, distortion (%) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 8 ohms."
"Fig.7 PS Audio Stellar M700, THD+N (%) vs frequency at 20V into: 8 ohms (blue), 4 ohms (magenta), 2 ohms (red)."
My point (if I have one ): It's not that the levels of distortion are high, it's that the characteristics of the curves are different than what our ears and brains are used to.
-
PSA does have a streamer in the works, has been for a while. Think they were hoping to have it out this year, but, more than likely will be next year.
-
gyosa, is the Stellar 300 compatible with Polk SDA speakers? I have yet to see that question answered on this forum.Been looking into them ...they seem to get great reviews .
What did y’all replace with the s300 , and are you happy with the decision ?
Happy with the overall sound vs a traditional class AB amp ?
Enough current to drive a 4 ohm load ?
Is it compatible with SDA’s , I know it’s dual mono , but common ground ? - in case I ever use with my 1c’s ?
Think it would compare favorably to my Parasound A21 and B&K EX-442 ?
I’m still looking for another amp for my Salks ....
Not in a huge hurry , the onkyo avr seems to do fine until I decide ... but still want separates....
Thanks !
BK
-
mhardy6647 wrote: »
I think the HF behavior of Class D amps is gonna be baked in by dint of the way they operate (i.e., their need for a sharp low-pass filter to make sure we don't hear 'the man behind the curtain' in the ultrasonic frequency range). If one looks at the THD+N curves as a function of frequency and output power, they look qualitatively quite different than a Class A or AB amplifier. It is easy to imagine that (despite the relative unimportance of THD per se in amplifier 'sound' IMO/IME!) the difference in behavior could well alter the sound of a Class D amp vis-a-vis a Class A or AB amp.
My point (if I have one ): It's not that the levels of distortion are high, it's that the characteristics of the curves are different than what our ears and brains are used to.
Interesting thoughts Doc, as per your usual. My question is, how does that manifest in an actual listening experience? I read some comments about a bit of harshness or detail at the higher end. Please expound as only you can do! Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
I've only listened to cheap ones, so I don't have much worthwhile to add.
Would like to hear the PSAudio (ICEPower) amp(s), e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHYztzh5QQ
