Help pick my home theater upgrade path! (Towers, subs, or what else)

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Comments

  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2019
    I was going to suggest that he find a new 3 channel amp for $1000-$1300 on the low end from Emotiva, Outlaw Audio, Monolith, etc. Then run the rear channels with his receiver. However, skip that and pick up that 1000 watts of solid B&K for $600!
    No doubt that this system should have potential to rock for home theater and sound sweet playing music in 2.0, 2.1, 5.1 config. As much I love the 706c center, I think the five identical speakers will have a very coherent sound when placed and tweaked properly....and cheaper than towers and the monster center.

    Get the most for your money.
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    edited June 2019
    I like the 703 setup, but, I'm a bookie junkie anyway. Be a heck of a system for HT. I would probably still go with a true center channel speaker myself.
  • shs
    shs Posts: 105
    I certainly like the idea of 5 703s, or if you like towers for the L&R then use 705s and put the 703 center on you cabinet/rack, like I did. Sounds absolutely great.
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • shs
    shs Posts: 105
    Just don't fall for the center channel speakers are needed for the center channel, marketing/WAF thing. If you have the room, a 703 or even another 705 would blend much better with the L&R that a so called center channel speaker.
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Not sure if I agree with your center channel speaker thinking, at least not for movies. Granted a small center isn’t much better than a regular speaker, but a wide center will separate left/right sounds better, and provide better spatial clues. This enhances the movie experience.
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
    Problem is placing a normal speaker as a center. It's not easy that is why a horizontal center works best in most cases.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
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  • shs
    shs Posts: 105
    The one and only advantage of a horizontal center speaker is that it is easier to place. I certainly accept that and why they are used. The 2 woofers get exactly the same signal and reinforce each other or interfere with each other depending on where you are sitting. It is called lobing and it narrows the horizontal dispersion of the speaker when you really want it to cover the whole the seating area. The 2 woofers have nothing to do with left/right clues. Those come from the left and right speakers.
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    shs wrote: »
    The one and only advantage of a horizontal center speaker is that it is easier to place. I certainly accept that and why they are used. The 2 woofers get exactly the same signal and reinforce each other or interfere with each other depending on where you are sitting. It is called lobing and it narrows the horizontal dispersion of the speaker when you really want it to cover the whole the seating area. The 2 woofers have nothing to do with left/right clues. Those come from the left and right speakers.

    That is incorrect. The drivers do not get exactly the same signal, each one plays different frequencies to prevent lobing and increase the horizontal dispersion, which helps to create a seamless front stage.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • shs
    shs Posts: 105
    I know that they fiddle the crossovers to minimize the lobing, but both woofers are basically playing the same frequency range and there is no doubt that the horizontal dispersion will not be as good as vertically orientated drivers.
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    Ummmm....no.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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    President of Club Polk

  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2019
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Not sure if I agree with your center channel speaker thinking, at least not for movies. Granted a small center isn’t much better than a regular speaker, but a wide center will separate left/right sounds better, and provide better spatial clues. This enhances the movie experience.
    There's nothing wrong at all with using a horizontal center and the 706c a good one. Its 3-way WTMW design overcomes many of the limitations of the typical MTM. It will have better peak output than the 703. However, from a measurement perspective... a vertical speaker measures better off axis. Also, the 703 is no slouch when fed a healthy amount of power...plus his room is medium sized. Either choice would be good.
    Widescreen Review editor Gary Reber: "How should the center channel loudspeaker be implemented?"BG Radia Loudspeaker principle designer Igor Levitsky: "Horizontally positioned center channel with two midwoofers flanking a tweeter is a compromise and should be avoided if possible for serious home theatre systems. If one has no choice but to use a horizontally positioned center channel, then use loudspeakers with vertically or coaxially positioned tweeter and midrange drivers. The ideal setup, though, is to use a center channel loudspeaker that is identical to the left and right loudspeakers and positioned behind the screen."
    Widescreen Review, June/July 2013

    mrloren wrote: »
    Problem is placing a normal speaker as a center. It's not easy that is why a horizontal center works best in most cases.
    Of course, most can't get a vertical bookie or tower to work in a normal living space. Thus the horizontal center was created. However, if the OP can place the 703 it would be cool to have the desired matching front three. Many multi-channel mastering/recording studios use this approach. The incredible 706c is always a great choice nevertheless.
    s5.jpg

    F1nut wrote: »
    shs wrote: »
    The one and only advantage of a horizontal center speaker is that it is easier to place. I certainly accept that and why they are used. The 2 woofers get exactly the same signal and reinforce each other or interfere with each other depending on where you are sitting. It is called lobing and it narrows the horizontal dispersion of the speaker when you really want it to cover the whole the seating area. The 2 woofers have nothing to do with left/right clues. Those come from the left and right speakers.
    That is incorrect. The drivers do not get exactly the same signal, each one plays different frequencies to prevent lobing and increase the horizontal dispersion, which helps to create a seamless front stage.
    The average 2.5 way MTM center speaker is a 2-way speaker combined with the second .5 woofer crossed over at a lower point. In the case of the 3-way WTMW 706c, the limitations are minimal because the low-pass crossover for the woofer is 280Hz. There will be very little lobing, comb filtering issues so the woofers are crossed over at the same point. On the right side of the board are the output for WOOFER 1 & WOOFER 2. I remember this when I had to repair my damaged 706.
    s-l1600.jpg
    Post edited by WLDock on
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    The schematic for the CSiA6.
    49ktpn45wif4.jpg

    I don't have one for the LSiM706, but have trouble believing both woofers play exactly the same.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2019
    Yes, the CSIA6 is the typical 2-way MTM using 6.5" woofers and a 1" tweeter. I would guess the crossover point is about 2KHz so the woofers are playing the full 250Hz-2KHz mid-range band. For sure they are using the .5 on the second woofer and crossing it over lower.

    OTOH, the 706C the mid-range is handled by the 3.25" midrange. So the 6.5's are playing from 280Hz down to the 3db point, 50Hz......they don't have to cover the critical midrange. No need to .5 the second woofer.

    Here is another example of the monstrous DIY Statement II center channel that I want to build some day. The woofer X-over points are the same.
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/speaker-project-gallery/62589-statements-ii-and-the-finalists-center-channels-are-here

    Even the Aerial Acoustic CC3C & 7CC 3-way centers use just two crossover points.
    https://aerialacoustics.com/cc3c/ - 450Hz and 3.5kHz at 24dB per octave
    https://aerialacoustics.com/7cc/ - 600 Hz and 3.5 kHz
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  • So. I am planning on using the 706c as my center channel. I shouldn't be giving anything up over the 703 with it, it's a larger speaker from the same lineup.

    I wanted either the 707s or 705s for front mains. I'm leaning towards the 707s... I am hoping they go on one of their epic sales again soon. They were $800/each when I first saw them on Slickdeals, and apparently they have been as low as $550 each once. Who knows if that will ever happen again.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    Polk is having one of their Friends and Family sales right now. You better get what you want now because they aren't going to around much longer.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    WLDock wrote: »
    Yes, the CSIA6 is the typical 2-way MTM using 6.5" woofers and a 1" tweeter. I would guess the crossover point is about 2KHz so the woofers are playing the full 250Hz-2KHz mid-range band. For sure they are using the .5 on the second woofer and crossing it over lower.

    OTOH, the 706C the mid-range is handled by the 3.25" midrange. So the 6.5's are playing from 280Hz down to the 3db point, 50Hz......they don't have to cover the critical midrange. No need to .5 the second woofer.

    Here is another example of the monstrous DIY Statement II center channel that I want to build some day. The woofer X-over points are the same.
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/speaker-project-gallery/62589-statements-ii-and-the-finalists-center-channels-are-here

    Even the Aerial Acoustic CC3C & 7CC 3-way centers use just two crossover points.
    https://aerialacoustics.com/cc3c/ - 450Hz and 3.5kHz at 24dB per octave
    https://aerialacoustics.com/7cc/ - 600 Hz and 3.5 kHz

    Ok cool, so we have some exceptions to the rule.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646

    15" wide, 16" deep, 10" ceiling.

    :o

    06n1hlfgaphc.jpg


  • shs
    shs Posts: 105
    So. I am planning on using the 706c as my center channel. I shouldn't be giving anything up over the 703 with it, it's a larger speaker from the same lineup.

    I am sure you will be happy with the 706. It is a fine speaker. Where I get on my soapbox is when people assume that one needs a horizontal center channel speaker because somehow that laws of physics are different for a center channel than for any other speaker in the system.

    The ideal is a vertical center channel, like the 703 but they don't always fit, hence the need for a horizontal speaker. However, a horizontal speaker will have more limited horizontal dispersion because of beaming and lobing, with some comb filtering thrown in as well. A well designed center channel speakers will minimize these effects, but can't eliminate them.
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2019
    F1nut wrote: »
    Ok cool, so we have some exceptions to the rule.
    shs wrote: »
    I am sure you will be happy with the 706. It is a fine speaker. Where I get on my soapbox is when people assume that one needs a horizontal center channel speaker because somehow that laws of physics are different for a center channel than for any other speaker in the system.

    The ideal is a vertical center channel, like the 703 but they don't always fit, hence the need for a horizontal speaker. However, a horizontal speaker will have more limited horizontal dispersion because of beaming and lobing, with some comb filtering thrown in as well. A well designed center channel speakers will minimize these effects, but can't eliminate them.

    Great reads on center channels! The test data shows that a vertical array is the way to go from a numbers standpoint. However, a well designed 3-way horizontal is a great practical choice for most living spaces. For a dedicated theater with an AT screen, three equal vertical speakers makes the most sense.

    Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs
    https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

    Vertical vs Horizontal Center Channel Speaker Designs – An Alternate Perspective
    https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-speaker

    Center Channel Speaker Design Additional Considerations
    https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs

    Pros & Cons of Various Center Channel Designs
    https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs-1
    Other center channel designs include 2-1/2 way MTM’s where one driver is bandwidth-limited to reduce lobing errors. There are also compromises here since the horizontal plane radiation pattern becomes asymmetrical as a result. These designs were popular a decade ago but aren't as common these days.
    CONCLUSION
    Acoustical interference caused by multiple drivers playing the same bandwidth is a non-issue if the radiating driver's cutoff frequency is low enough so that the distance between adjacent drivers is small relative to the wavelengths they are producing in equal or near equal proportions. (This is known in filter-speak as the "transition band" or "crossover band"). As the order of the crossover is increased (6 dB to 12 dB to 18 dB to 24 dB or beyond), the amount of phase shift within the crossover band increases, so the likelihood of the two speakers being out of phase at any given angle off-axis increases, while the frequency range over which this is an issue decreases. This is why it can be acceptable to horizontally place multiple woofers and midranges (if the center to center distance between them is closer than the highest wavelength of operation) but, typically NOT tweeters.

    Using the guidelines presented in this article and our three previously referenced detailed articles on center channels will help you determine what kind of center channel is right for your needs. It’s important to try to match the front three LCR speakers as closely as possible to ensure you achieve the most seamless transition between them. Hence this is why it’s typically a good idea to stay within a certain series of products from the manufacturer of your choice to ensure your front LCR speakers have similar driver compliments, quality of components and output capabilities.

    If you absolutely want to use identical matching vertical LCRs or towers and don't want to block your image, consider an acoustically transparent screen which will allow you to place the center channel speaker behind it with minimal degradation of sound quality. Alternatively, if your theater room is small and doesn't require large high output speakers, respectably good performance can be achieved by using identical two-way bookshelf speakers all vertically oriented which should still be small enough to tuck below your screen or display without causing any visual ugliness.
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  • shs
    shs Posts: 105
    We certainly agree on the theory and physics involved in loudspeaker design, and I certainly agree that a horizontal center channel speaker is the most practical speaker for most people, and that a well-designed center channel speaker like the 706 can preform very well. Where I have a problem is when people believe that a horizontal center channel speaker is actually preferred or necessary for the best performance – that the multiple horizontal woofers are needed to send left right clues.

    e2zxif6g2cj4.jpg
    snb6sppohy3m.png

    Polk certainly does not help educate people on this subject and one can find many images from Polk with a horizontal center channel speaker where a 3rd identical speaker to the left and right bookshelf speakers would fit just fine without the need to raise the TV. (I have actually heard the not enough drivers in the 703 for left/right clues from Polk tech support. I politely thanked him for the advice and called back. The next guy who answered was more knowledgeable and we have a good laugh when I relayed my previous tech support call.)

    In the case of the 706 vs the 703, use of the 703 for the center potentially means raising the TV or screen up 7.75 inches (9” vs 16.75” heights). I have gone this way as I prefer 3 vertical speakers up front and my early experience with an acoustically transparent screen produced less favorable compromises than slightly raising a solid screen. I should try an AT screen again, but they still do involve some compromises. And the somewhat higher screen is really not a problem once you lean back in a recliner with your favorite beverage. We all pick slightly different compromises when it comes to home theater. To each his (or her) own. The critical thing is to make these compromises based on correct information.
    SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, Oppo UDP 203, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer.
  • I definitely understand that a horizontal center speaker probably isn't ideal. However, this is going underneath my TV set... I do not have the luxury of an acoustically transparent screen. I cannot use 3 703s up front. Also, I plan to add 705 towers or 707 towers for my front L/R.

    In any case, the 706 is a larger speaker than the 703.

    I suppose if money were no object, we'd all just surround ourselves with equidistant 707 towers from all angles, and have 9 of those?
  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,116
    edited June 2019
    Also, I plan to add 705 towers or 707 towers for my front L/R.

    In any case, the 706 is a larger speaker than the 703.

    I suppose if money were no object, we'd all just surround ourselves with equidistant 707 towers from all angles, and have 9 of those?

    FYI, the 703 is the top section of the 707, if you didn't know that already.

    For the "money were no object" comment, I actually considered doing an all RTiA9 set up in a 9.2 configuration and if the prices were as they are now when I considered it, it would be a done deal.

    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2019
    I definitely understand that a horizontal center speaker probably isn't ideal. However, this is going underneath my TV set... I do not have the luxury of an acoustically transparent screen. I cannot use 3 703s up front. Also, I plan to add 705 towers or 707 towers for my front L/R.

    In any case, the 706 is a larger speaker than the 703.

    I suppose if money were no object, we'd all just surround ourselves with equidistant 707 towers from all angles, and have 9 of those?
    The horizontal 706c is AWESOME! PERIOD! NO QUESTION!

    However, if one can place five identical bookshelf speakers, it would be very cool. Like shs stated, look at those Polk pics. Three identical speakers would work in both cases. I see folks all the time that have their TV's placed high like that. In many cases one could use two audio stands flanking a tower speaker between them.

    Here is a great example of a system using custom made Salk Sound speakers (Not cheap!). Look how high the TV is with the massive horizontal center channel. A tower would fit with two stands flaking it for the gear.

    1300065-salk-soundscape-8-reference-floor-standing-speakers-amp-8c-reference-center-channel-speaker.jpg

    The point is to bring awareness when folks ask for advice. Some might actually be able to place three, five, seven bookies or towers and have never really thought about it.


    ...... If money were no object, my room would go next level 9 channel ATMOS. I would have a dedicated theater / sports event room using high efficiency custom built speakers from Acoustic Elegance / AE Speakers.
    http://aespeakers.com/

    with BIG custom subs from Stereo Integrity: https://stereointegrity.com/product-category/subs/

    aa92c439b6c8e3793b000598f23adcf0.jpg

    home-theater-with-spotlights-and-sky-mural-ceiling.jpg

    home-theater-football-1024x466.jpg

    awesome-home-theater-lighting-ideas.jpg

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