CRS+ 4.1TL upgrade - best bang for my buck?

JayMX
JayMX Posts: 446
in Vintage Speakers
Picked up a near perfect pair of CRS+’s from 1990 this week for $125. They sound fantastic as they stand, but I’m thinking about going all in on these, unfortunately, I’m not a rich dude. Any recommendations or suggestions for upgrading to 4.1TL? What caps would give me the most value/performance for a reasonable budget? In order of importance, after tweeters and refreshing xovers which mods yield the best and most noticeable performance improvements? As always, I appreciate everyone’s help!
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Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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Comments

  • monepolk
    monepolk Posts: 1,142
    Great deal on some nice looking speakers.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,438
    Wood shims?
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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Wood shims?
    Nope, they’re cardboard. I think they’re probably original packaging to protect the bezels... these boxes are like brand new!
    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,438
    edited May 2019
    JayMX wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Wood shims?
    Nope, they’re cardboard. I think they’re probably original packaging to protect the bezels... these boxes are like brand new!

    Gotcha makes sense. You should run like you stole'em... very nice. Take your time and do them right. Sonicaps or Clarity would be my only two choices.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,237
    in with 36, I will even cover shipping..
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,000
    Those are so nice, even I wouldn't chop anything on them. Well, tweeters couldn't stay.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,315
    Congrats on your good fortune. I don't think you can replace the tweeters with the RDO-198, unless you modify the x-overs as well. Although I may be wrong. This pair is worthy of any and all mods you afford, take your time and enjoy the process.

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  • gudnoyez
    gudnoyez Posts: 8,124
    edited May 2019
    Those are beautiful enjoy them. I have everything I need for mine even the OEM stands except the rebuilt crossovers that's all I need. Start by trying to source Larry's rings and tweeter brackets the rest is easily obtainable, the RDO 198s then the crossover upgrade and you will be set. I would leave the cabinets as is they are gorgeous.
    Home Theater
    Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable

    2 Channel
    Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+

    Stuff for the Head
    JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365

    Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
    Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin B)
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,438
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    Congrats on your good fortune. I don't think you can replace the tweeters with the RDO-198, unless you modify the x-overs as well. Although I may be wrong. This pair is worthy of any and all mods you afford, take your time and enjoy the process.

    4.1TL is the upgrade to use RD-0198 correctly. This was sanctioned by Polk and would have been implemented had they gone forward with SDA's
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  • tonyp063
    tonyp063 Posts: 1,083
    Before you do anything you anchor the mid-woofer magnets. Plenty of threads here on how-to.

    The TL mod is going to require you to do tweeters and crossovers at the same time.

    For *decent* caps & resistors you will be looking at roughly $100 per speaker. You can spend way more. You can spend a little less.

    But good components ain't cheap & cheap components ain't good.
    Then the tweeters at whatever they cost at the moment. $50 each?

    Those are your rough do-it-yourself base costs. You asked.

    After that, there are a bazillion little things you can do that will make them that much better.
    Your call on how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go. Good luck, you'll need it.

    Opinion:
    Were it me and had I found a pair of CRS+ in that condition, I would be opening my wallet in a big way.
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  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,315
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Mike Reeter wrote: »
    Congrats on your good fortune. I don't think you can replace the tweeters with the RDO-198, unless you modify the x-overs as well. Although I may be wrong. This pair is worthy of any and all mods you afford, take your time and enjoy the process.

    4.1TL is the upgrade to use RD-0198 correctly. This was sanctioned by Polk and would have been implemented had they gone forward with SDA's

    Yes, I was just under the impression that the x-over had to be modified (the 4.1TL upgrade) to accept the RDO-198. If not, one would have to use the RDO-194 "if" they only wanted to change the tweeters and not change the x-overs. I didn't do a very good job of that in my first post.

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  • codycatalist
    codycatalist Posts: 2,662
    For what its worth I went sonicap in the high pass and dayton in the low. I have no complaints.

    Is it worth upgrading the sub bass inductors on these?
    Just a dude doing dude-ly things

    "Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    codycatalist wrote: »
    For what its worth I went sonicap in the high pass and dayton in the low. I have no complaints.

    Is it worth upgrading the sub bass inductors on these?

    Yes
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    westmassguy wrote: »
    Yes

    What is the improvement with this upgrade?

    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,438
    Better bass and more articulation in the bass. Some of the Polk inductor's were all over the place. When original inductors are measured they could be way off from each other. When buying new it is advised to make sure they are correct. When I bought mine from Erse they both were labeled correctly but one had been mis-marked and was WAY off from what it should have been. You could also measure all yours in the speaker and balance them all as close as possibly to each other if money is tight.
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    edited May 2019
    JayMX wrote: »
    westmassguy wrote: »
    Yes

    What is the improvement with this upgrade?

    Improved deep bass, starting around 150 Hz downward. Polk intentionally kept the DC Resistance high on theses Inductors, to keep the overall Impedance of the speakers acceptable. Amplifiers capable of powering 4 ohms or less were very pricy back in the 80s.
    Keep in mind, this only affects the dimensional woofer. By lowering the DC Resistance, the dimensional woofer can produce the same in-phase deep bass as the stereo woofer.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    edited May 2019
    @westmassguy thanks! What is your recommended mfg/supplier for the inductor?
    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • Dr_Wu
    Dr_Wu Posts: 335
    westmassguy wrote: »
    JayMX wrote: »
    westmassguy wrote: »
    Yes

    What is the improvement with this upgrade?

    Improved deep bass, starting around 150 Hz downward. Polk intentionally kept the DC Resistance high on theses Inductors, to keep the overall Impedance of the speakers acceptable. Amplifiers capable of powering 4 ohms or less were very pricy back in the 80s.
    Keep in mind, this only affects the dimensional woofer. By lowering the DC Resistance, the dimensional woofer can produce the same in-phase deep bass as the stereo woofer.

    Thanks for the knowledge, @westmassguy. So, with a powered sub, maybe not as critical an upgrade?
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,582
    edited May 2019
    Dave did my crossovers using the Sonicaps for the high pass and I had him do the Daytons on the low pass so I could afford to have him tune me some inductors. Very happy with this budget combo.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)

    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    JayMX wrote: »
    @westmassguy thanks! What is your recommended mfg/supplier for the inductor?

    http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/SuperQCoils16Gauge/ESQ55-16-18000

    https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-16mh-14-awg-c-coil-toroidal-inductor--255-842

    The Erse will have to be unwound to 16mH
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    edited May 2019
    Dr_Wu wrote: »
    westmassguy wrote: »
    JayMX wrote: »
    westmassguy wrote: »
    Yes

    What is the improvement with this upgrade?

    Improved deep bass, starting around 150 Hz downward. Polk intentionally kept the DC Resistance high on theses Inductors, to keep the overall Impedance of the speakers acceptable. Amplifiers capable of powering 4 ohms or less were very pricy back in the 80s.
    Keep in mind, this only affects the dimensional woofer. By lowering the DC Resistance, the dimensional woofer can produce the same in-phase deep bass as the stereo woofer.

    Thanks for the knowledge, @westmassguy. So, with a powered sub, maybe not as critical an upgrade?

    For this model, yes.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • JayCee
    JayCee Posts: 1,500
    edited May 2019
    @JayMX...congrats, nice pickup.

    I'd also Dynamat the drivers and consider Blackhole (not sure if still produced) or similar product . You can use Noico, same affect as Dynamat, and claims to be thicker at 80 mil's. Used it before and ordered a box last night for a pair of 3.1tl's I just picked up. At $22 for a 10 sq ft box it will be plenty.
    https://www.amazon.com/Noico-deadening-Automotive-Insulation-dampening/dp/B01KZ5X7KO

    Hurricane nuts (Larry's rings aren't available) are also recommended.

    I have a pair of CRS's I acquired several years ago and modded to 4.1tl; to include all suggested upgrades. I have more SDA's than rooms at the moment but will always keep the 4.1's as backup if I have to downsize my home many years from now. Add the Dreadnaught and these speakers are killer considering their size.

    Soundstage is tremendous. I have a an Epik dual 15" subwoofer that I've run with these in my home theater. Really wanted to like a pair of 705's I had but the 4.1tl CRS's were more to my liking. Gifted the 705's to my sister.

    Have fun....you'll really enjoy them.
    Post edited by JayCee on
    ➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
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  • JayMX
    JayMX Posts: 446
    JayCee wrote: »
    ...You can use Noico, same affect as Dynamat, and claims to be thicker at 80 mil's. Used it before and ordered a box last night for a pair of 3.1tl's I just picked up. At $22 for a 10 sq ft box it will be plenty.
    https://www.amazon.com/Noico-deadening-Automotive-Insulation-dampening/dp/B01KZ5X7KO


    ...Add the Dreadnaught and these speakers are killer considering their size.

    Thanks for the Noico lead. Never heard of it before!

    Regarding Dreadnaught, I’ve always wondered what the benefit of the high wattage (800-1000VA) torroid provides for sound quality? I understand the need for isolation running monoblocks, but what does it do for you sonically?
    Current Collection: Monitor 4a (Peerless), Monitor 5B (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7b (Peerless), RTA15TL (SL3000), SDA CRS+ (194’s), SDA SRS 2.3TL, R100's, R200’s, R300 🤩
    Pairs that have passed through: Monitor 4b (Peerless), Monitor 5a (Peerless), Monitor 5b (SL1000), Monitor 5b (SL2000) (4x pair), Monitor 7b (Peerless), Modified Monitor 7c’s (194’s), Monitor 10a (Peerless), Monitor 10b (5x pair), RTA8, RTA8TL, RTA 11T, RTA12c (194's), SDA CRS, SDA 2 (2x pair), SDA 2a, SDA 2b, SDA 1b, SDA 1c, SDA SRS 2 (2x pair), SDA SRS 3.1TL (198’s) (2x pair)...and more to come, it’s a sickness.
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  • JayCee
    JayCee Posts: 1,500
    edited May 2019
    Increase in mid-bass response and big bump with the soundstage. Search for DarqueKnight's posts, among others, for more technical explanations. Also, read the SDA whitepages by Mathew Polk posted on this site. Essentially, brings the speakers more in-line with the original technical specs but not realized because of 1980's power amp limitations; not liking dips in the 4 ohms or lower range.
    ➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,543
    JayMX wrote: »
    JayCee wrote: »
    ...You can use Noico, same affect as Dynamat, and claims to be thicker at 80 mil's. Used it before and ordered a box last night for a pair of 3.1tl's I just picked up. At $22 for a 10 sq ft box it will be plenty.
    https://www.amazon.com/Noico-deadening-Automotive-Insulation-dampening/dp/B01KZ5X7KO


    ...Add the Dreadnaught and these speakers are killer considering their size.

    Thanks for the Noico lead. Never heard of it before!

    Regarding Dreadnaught, I’ve always wondered what the benefit of the high wattage (800-1000VA) torroid provides for sound quality? I understand the need for isolation running monoblocks, but what does it do for you sonically?

    Mo' better sound. Everyone who has added a Dreadnought regardless if using a common ground amp or non-common ground amps has reported a noticeable improvement in sound quality.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • JayCee
    JayCee Posts: 1,500
    F1nut wrote: »
    Mo' better sound.

    What he said :smiley:

    ➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
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  • TennMan
    TennMan Posts: 1,266
    westmassguy wrote: »
    The Erse will have to be unwound to 16mH
    Does this have to be dead on or is there some tolerance on how much it can vary some from 18mH?
    • SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
    • Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
    • Marantz 1504 AVR (front speaker pre-outs to Adcom 555)
    • Adcom GFA-555 amp · Upgrades & speaker protection added by OldmanSRS
    • Pioneer DV-610AV DVD/CD player
    • SDA CRS+ · Hidden away in the closet
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    TennMan wrote: »
    westmassguy wrote: »
    The Erse will have to be unwound to 16mH
    Does this have to be dead on or is there some tolerance on how much it can vary some from 18mH?

    I wouldn't deviate more than 5%, otherwise you alter the design.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • TennMan
    TennMan Posts: 1,266
    westmassguy wrote: »
    TennMan wrote: »
    westmassguy wrote: »
    The Erse will have to be unwound to 16mH
    Does this have to be dead on or is there some tolerance on how much it can vary some from 18mH?

    I wouldn't deviate more than 5%, otherwise you alter the design.

    Thanks! Obviously I meant 16mH. 18mH was a typo.
    • SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
    • Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
    • Marantz 1504 AVR (front speaker pre-outs to Adcom 555)
    • Adcom GFA-555 amp · Upgrades & speaker protection added by OldmanSRS
    • Pioneer DV-610AV DVD/CD player
    • SDA CRS+ · Hidden away in the closet
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter