Question about subwoofer: pair or 1 really good one?

joecoulson

Whatever dude. I want to hear the air moving from the SVS pumping at 15hz! Go big or go home.

msg

Walt, I ALWAYS learn something from your posts. Sheeze, dude, good stuff.

pitdogg2

I had a friend who made a 7' tall 24" diameter sonotube sub with two 15" drivers iirc that was tuned to 17hz. Powered by a older Sherbourn amp it would almost suck the air out of your lungs during movie passages.

sgmsmg

Just get these
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9ba86-jl-audio-gotham-213-v2-in-piano-black-pair-available-subwoofers

WLDock

Two for half the retail price of one. Those should check off all of the boxes in the ultimate bass for life category....Two 13.5" high excursion subs, vertically stacked , pushed with about 1800 Watts real world per cabinet, built in room correction, and for sure has twice as much displacement as his main speakers. End of discussion, close this thread and turn off the lights. LOL!

Let's see what Joey thinks...

ZLTFUL

A gentleman in Minneapolis who hosted their final theater crawl stop in April 2018 has 6 21" subs, 4 18" subs and his mains have 4 18" drivers in them.

In room, on a calibrated SPL meter, he was getting 154.9db well below clipping. Heck, he was getting 125db in his back yard 30-40 ft from the house.

The mains were arguably the best DIY speakers I have ever heard and there was a LOT of active EQing and DSP with all of the drivers in the system.

That being said, he even admitted that he *never* listens with his subs on unless he is showing off to folks because his mains are more than capable of covering everything he listens to at reasonable volumes.

But I digress. I claim to not be a basshead and I really am not...but I won't deny that there is some beautiful stuff to be had filling in the final bottom octave of the scale.

WLDock

Man I just saw Avengers Endgame and an IMAX Atmos theater and the bass effects shook the floor, the seats and pants legs. I have no doubt about that guy's home system would push the sound better than the IMAX Atmos setup! THATS CRAZY!

ZLTFUL

WLDock wrote: »

Man I just saw Avengers Endgame and an IMAX Atmos theater and the bass effects shook the floor, the seats and pants legs. I have no doubt about that guy's home system would push the sound better than the IMAX Atmos setup! THATS CRAZY!

I wore earplugs from start to finish of his demo. But there were times when it was physically uncomfortable to be around. Heck, a shuttle launch was around 160db.

joecoulson

WLDock wrote: »

Man I just saw Avengers Endgame and an IMAX Atmos theater and the bass effects shook the floor, the seats and pants legs. I have no doubt about that guy's home system would push the sound better than the IMAX Atmos setup! THATS CRAZY!

Seeing it Friday. Can’t wait!!

SCompRacer

WLDock wrote: »

. Many times they are both placed upfront either inside or outside of the main speakers to make things look pretty. However, that might not be the best location.

My two NHT's work best between the speakers and against the wall. I have over 11,000 cubic feet of open main level to deal with. There are more bass traps around the room. Yes, I have tried other sub positioning. I use Dayton Audio Omnimic V2 to do room sweeps. First get the best placement for speakers, then work on the subs. Folks might be surprised what speaker positioning can do to the mid range.

My subs are positioned for the sweet spot. You can walk forward from the sweet spot and the low bass cancels out and returns as you get closer to the subs. I don't care about anywhere else in the room. It wasn't designed for audio or groups of listeners.

If I have folks over, we share the sweet spot. This was taken shortly after I got the Salk's. I had to remove some treatments that worked great behind the previous speakers.

WLDock

SCompRacer wrote: »

My two NHT's work best between the speakers and against the wall. I have over 11,000 cubic feet of open main level to deal with. /quote]
OMG, you can't tell from your pictures over the years. I remember you saying how nice those NHT's are. Yours is a system I would love to listen to. Where are you located, Iowa, southern IN? I've forgotten.

In my own room the subs work good in those location also. However, I need to get a matching second sub to my Stereo Integrity HT15 and move this small HSU to the future living room system...if the Mrs will have it.

delkal

From some of the recent comments I will have to rethink what my definition of a "Sub" is. For me a sub is just a speaker that will increase the lowest bass when your main speakers start to tail off. But it only adds sound where the other speakers can't. Like in a live performance and with a linear response of lets say +/- 3db.

If to others it means artificially boosting the lowest bass to tens of dB's over the rest of the music then you will need a stack of them and not just one.

But (again just my opinion) unless you like rap or home theater. It might sound great but is is not "audiophile".

SCompRacer

WLDock wrote: »

OMG, you can't tell from your pictures over the years. I remember you saying how nice those NHT's are. Yours is a system I would love to listen to. Where are you located, Iowa, southern IN? I've forgotten.

Plainfield, IL, just SW of Chicago. Near Ernie. (Brian). C'mon down. Even though its not audiophile, we can have some music fun.

SCompRacer

delkal wrote: »

From some of the recent comments I will have to rethink what my definition of a "Sub" is. For me a sub is just a speaker that will increase the lowest bass when your main speakers start to tail off. But it only adds sound where the other speakers can't. Like in a live performance and with a linear response of lets say +/- 3db.

If to others it means artificially boosting the lowest bass to tens of dB's over the rest of the music then you will need a stack of them and not just one.

But (again just my opinion) unless you like rap or home theater. It might sound great but is is not "audiophile".

I call them subs cause they are sold as subs. We could call them low Hz enhancers.

Audiophile, now there is a term with broad meaning. An audiophile ought to understand what the room can do to speaker sensitivity. Take a speaker that measures 25Hz - 40kHz +-3dB. You put that speaker in a room, you think you are going to get 25Hz +- 3dB? 35Hz +- 3dB? Maybe corner loaded, but what about on an open wall?

What types of music do you listen to? Consult a music chart. Note the lowest Hz the instruments used in the music you like. Do a room sweep. Are you getting nothing, or just a hint of the lowest frequencies of the instruments?

I like pipe organ. I even like some dubstep 1% of the time. Maybe you don't. My low Hz enhancers add dB to the 25-35Hz range my speakers cannot play at in my 11,000+ cubic feet. I hear what was intended in the low Hz range with music that dips that low. My low Hz enhancers do not play all the time, just when needed.

You say it's not "audiophile" to have subs even though they can sound great? Is it "audiophile" to miss out on the frequencies in music? If so, then you are no audiophile.

delkal

SCompRacer wrote: »

You say it's not "audiophile" to have subs even though they can sound great? Is it "audiophile" to miss out on the frequencies in music? If so, then you are no audiophile.

Maybe I used the audiophile term to strongly. For me audiophile means reproducing a recording as close as possible. Just like you were listening to it live. I was not talking about missing out on any frequencies. So a sub can be used to give an authentic recreation of the music as low as it goes.

But, It seems like some people think a subs mean to giving a 20-30 db+ all the way to shaking your house kind of boost to the lowest frequencies. I understand how this can sound exiting and is fun for home theater. And I have been known to turn up my (only one) sub when my kids were watching a movie downstairs. Upstairs you could hear them laughing when the house rattled.

But to me this is something different definition than "Audiophile". YMMV,

joecoulson

Dude! You like dubstep?!? @Clipdat you reading this?!?
Even 1% is worth mentioning.

And subs are necessary for audiophile sound IMO. How can I listen to the lowest sounds recorded (St Saens no. 3) without a sub?

delkal

joecoulson wrote: »

Dude! You like dubstep?!? @Clipdat you reading this?!?
Even 1% is worth mentioning.

And subs are necessary for audiophile sound IMO. How can I listen to the lowest sounds recorded (St Saens no. 3) without a sub?

This is getting way to convoluted. Read my earlier posts. I NEVER said you shouldn't have a sub. Apparently I said the unthinkable here and said that you just needed ONE.

Then multiple people started showing pics of other peoples systems that had stacks of subs to apparently prove I was ignorant in saying just ONE sub. Now it turned to you need at least 1000 watts of subs blasting out the lowest bass at all times or your missing something!

For me all I want is a system that recreates a recording as close to live as possible. Nothing more and nothing less. IIt is a never ending quest but for me ONE sub does that.

joecoulson

Not sure why my post stuck a nerve but it wasn’t meant to. In fact I agreed with you if you will read back -one good sub vs two.
Cool down kemosabe. It’s all good.

SCompRacer

joecoulson wrote: »

Dude! You like dubstep?!? @Clipdat you reading this?!?
Even 1% is worth mentioning.

Some folks have said it's fun here. Lots of music to choose from, digital and vinyl covered. Skrillex Bangarang on vinyl sounds real good.

My low frequency enhancers aren't boosted that much. They are not turned up to 11. The folks that make those things actually suggested two 15" subs due to the amount of space, but two 12's are sufficient.

joecoulson

Try Beatroots. C/o @Clipdat

SCompRacer

We got a Hybrid cat, Jasper. He decides who stays. He is one cool cat. It's his two channel. He liked Jay (agfrost), curled up right next to him. Hybrids usually don't bother folks that are allergic to regular cats.

Matter of fact, we got a GIK art panel of him.

ZLTFUL

kharp1

I understand the statement that it's not "audiophile" to use a sub...it seems that for too long that's been the sentiment of some purists whether publicly avowed or not. I've had one old school shop owner say it to me. Funny thing was he was also a Klipsch dealer and they once offered a sub in their Heritage line. I think that arguement came about back when subs were far less advanced than now. Often times the integration was faulty resulting in localization. Or, it was used in excess and over powered the mains. Many of the original"audiophile" writers and reviewers used speakers that accentuated the positives of the midrange and many of those speakers were flat as a ruler and didn't dig too deep.I believe that subs are being rethought by many in the industry as evidenced by the 2 channel pre's coming out with sub outs, along with the many new brands of subs. The sub is finding its rightful place among "audiophiles."

nooshinjohn

I will stick my toe in here and say this... all I have is a REL S-5 SHO. I have it dialed in so well that you don't even know its in the room when playing music, but you also know when I shut it off. It does nothing to call attention to itself, unless I am watching movies, and let it do it's thing.


To me a sub is like somebody else's kid... they should be seen and not heard.

DoneandGone

I am playing around with my Forcefield 3’s. Up, down, left, right, weights on/off. The difference from small distance moves is remarkable. My roll-off frequencies are higher so when I had only 1 sub, I could definitely hear a shift in the stereo center.
My home made bass traps are ridiculously large but, I think, allow me to put the subs in more unconventional locations.
My journey was, to get 2 cheaper subs. Experiment and have some fun in the process.

joecoulson

That last statement is the key to every thread in here.

WLDock

delkal wrote: »

This is getting way to convoluted. Read my earlier posts. I NEVER said you shouldn't have a sub. Apparently I said the unthinkable here and said that you just needed ONE.

Then multiple people started showing pics of other peoples systems that had stacks of subs to apparently prove I was ignorant in saying just ONE sub. Now it turned to you need at least 1000 watts of subs blasting out the lowest bass at all times or your missing something!

For me all I want is a system that recreates a recording as close to live as possible. Nothing more and nothing less. IIt is a never ending quest but for me ONE sub does that.

I'm not sure if you know that the o.p. Joey is a heavy weight audiophile who's been through a ton of gear. The man has this $45K retail 600W x 2 powering whatever damn near fullrange towers he has these days in his dedicated and sound treated music room.



We've been down this road with Joey at least 2-3 times. He was the one originally talking about a Rel or SVS multi stack 6 pack back in 2016 to add bass weight and visceral impact to his system. That's why he's considering a single Gotham which alone can satisfy just about any music system in most normal home sized rooms. I think this might be his year to finally do it, and no doubt he will do it BIG! TEXAS style!

July 2016

Joey_V wrote: »

Just thinking about adding subs to my 2ch system. I want it to be a seamless foundation rather than adding something overbloated, etc.

How do I run multiple subs with some EQ?

And can multiple subs with self-eq (like JL or Velodyne) run a sum total EQ (each one can tune to the room response, but can multiple at the same time)?

I'm hoping I can have a multitude of subs into the system to really lay the foundation. Although at this time, it is already sounding extremely good and balanced even in the lower registers.

Thnks guys

July 2016

Joey_V wrote: »

Mikey and Ron,

I appreciate the comments and tips.

Ron - explain it again to me in plain english - what exactly are these products you mention? Would I need an active cross over to cut out the bass on my towers?

Mikey - good point with the E series JL Audios. I know, all those subs I mentioned are good, would love to have any combo of them.

I am glad to hear you liked the SB13 Ultras as I think they might be a good value at that price point.

How many would make for a good set of SB13U?

I was thinking of getting 6 SVS SB13 Ultras. Just to keep the stress levels down on each sub but still have near infinite head room. I've seen rooms with a six pack of REL G1, but I don't think that would be a wise financial splurge. If I can get 95% of the foundation with 6 SVS SB13 Ultras as I would a six pack of REL G1, I would be a very happy camper.

The system is honestly sounding near fantastic at this point. All my hard work is paying off.

July 2016

Joey_V wrote: »

Good to hear Mikey... perhaps six might be overkill, but I doubt 4 would.

Paradoxex - 6 PB13U, yes, that would take a tremendous amount of space. However, 6 SB13U I don't think take up that much space if you can stack them.

The main thing is not to stress the subs, low volume, low distortion, low excursions... divide up the required amplified sound across 4 or 6 subs and get them to integrate. I think it would be fantastic.

Here is a picture of Rockport Cygnus with a 6 pack of REL G1.

July 2016

Joey_V wrote: »

What I'll probably do is the following:

1. I need to figure out the best way to integrate and control the outputs of multiple subs.
2. I will probably start with the dealer delivering all 6, then we work our way down. I'll stack them, integrate them and see A/B at 6 vs 4 vs 2 in my room does. Then if 2 is the sweetspot, then I'll be happy to return the other 4. If 4 is the sweet spot, then I will return 2.

Best way to test something is in your house on your terms.

WLDock

I seriously doubt anyone was insinuating that you were ignorant for recommending a single sub. Everyone knows that a single sub can be placed and tuned to sound pretty good. Lets take it even further, put a single sub in the center of the room and it will less likely excite room modes vs. being located close to the side walls. How often does one see a ceiling or floor sub vented from the middle of the room? Great idea in theory but not practical for most. Some have done it however.
https://www.audioholics.com/diy-audio/hidden-in-floor-in-ceiling-subwoofer-installation
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Still, there are so many more factors involved...

However, I'm a bit surprised about your position on two subs. In the Pro audio world they use multiple subs for various reasons. Some of the reasons are to control the sound and cancel out waves. In the home, a second sub can be used help smooth the response. Bass waves that collide with each other will either be constructive or destructive interference. Two subs equidistant to the listener on opposite walls can help smooth the response by canceling out room modes.



So, the definitions have not changed!

Wiki wrote:

Audiophile - An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.[1] An audiophile seeks to reproduce the sound of a live musical performance, typically in a room with good acoustics. It is widely agreed that reaching this goal is very difficult and that even the best-regarded recording and playback systems rarely, if ever, achieve it

WiKi wrote:

Subwoofer - A subwoofer (or sub) is a woofer, or a complete loudspeaker, which is dedicated to the reproduction of low-pitched audio frequencies known as bass and sub-bass. The typical frequency range for a subwoofer is about 20–200 Hz for consumer products,[1] below 100 Hz for professional live sound,[2] and below 80 Hz in THX-approved systems.[3] Subwoofers are intended to augment the low frequency range of loudspeakers that cover the higher frequency bands. While the term "subwoofer" technically only refers to the speaker driver, in common parlance, the term often refers to a subwoofer driver mounted in a speaker enclosure (cabinet), often with a built-in amplifier.

In September 1964, Raymon Dones, of El Cerrito, California, received the first patent for a subwoofer specifically designed to augment omni-directionally the low frequency range of modern stereo systems (US patent 3150739). Able to reproduce distortion-free low frequencies down to 15 cycles per second (15 Hz), a specific objective of Dones’s invention was to provide portable sound enclosures capable of high fidelity reproduction of low frequency sound waves without giving an audible indication of the direction from which they emanated. Dones's loudspeaker was marketed in the US under the trade name "The Octavium"[15] from the early 1960s to the mid-1970s. The Octavium was utilized by several recording artists of that era, most notably the Grateful Dead, bassist Monk Montgomery, bassist Nathan East, and the Pointer Sisters. The Octavium speaker and Dones's subwoofer technology were also utilized, in a few select theaters, to reproduce low pitch frequencies for the 1974 blockbuster movie Earthquake. During the late 1960s, Dones’s Octavium was favorably reviewed by audiophile publications including Hi-Fi News and Audio Magazine.

The first use of a subwoofer in a recording session was in 1973 for mixing the Steely Dan album Pretzel Logic, when recording engineer Roger Nichols arranged for Kreisel to bring a prototype of his subwoofer to Village Recorders.[18] Further design modifications were made by Kreisel over the next ten years, and in the 1970s and 1980s by engineer John P. D'Arcy; record producer Daniel Levitin served as a consultant and "golden ears" for the design of the crossover network (used to partition the frequency spectrum so that the subwoofer would not attempt to reproduce frequencies too high for its effective range, and so that the main speakers would not need to handle frequencies too low for their effective range). In 1976, Kreisel created the first satellite speakers and subwoofer system, named "David and Goliath".

WLDock

So, all are good arguments.
1) No sub, most floorstanding speakers can cover the bass in most music.
2) One sub, is an easy way to add low bass reinforcement to main speakers.
3) Two or more subs, can be use to help with bass fullness, and room response.

As far as the music that we need subs for.... There is a lot of low bass content out there in all types of genres of music. By low bass, anything under 60Hz let say. The one instrument that many people forget that's very taxing on subs is the continuous BASS SYNTH sounds. There recording with get the voice coils of your main speakers pretty warm in a hurry.

Here's just a super small example of music (There are millions of better examples!) that I would prefer to listen to with well integrated subs in the mix. I don't want the bass bloated or overpowering, but I want the bass to be rich, fat, sharp and clean.

This cut has bass that is low but not super low. It goes down to the Double Bass range on the keyboard, E1 which is about a 40Hz tone.



Most mains can handle it but I like to listen to this cut with a little more volume. I well integrated sub system can take things to the next level and sound better than the playback in a club!
DeBarge - Stop! Don't Tease Me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmRS51HPlvM


Here's another low synth bass example: Chaka Khan - Ain't Nobody -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y41-IT6Rp2M

and another.... Bruno Mars - 24K
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqyT8IEBkvY

So, by definition an Audiophile would use wherever playback equipment to recreate the slamming dance feel true to the original that these cuts provide.

maxward

Great post. Thanks.