Budget 2CH Rig for Newbies - A Challenge

heiney9

"Some tube guys could care less about solid state?" I am a tube guy and care very much for well designed and excellent sounding SS. The good SS stuff is expensive, for good reason that has nothing to do with ground breaking tech.

I am also not talking about HT or THX or Dolby, etc. There are newer and arguably better HT stuff once in a while. In the context of this thread and what was stated about new technology blowing away Adcom and NAD of the past is what I'm speaking too. Assumption being 'amp" technology...........of which there is none. It's the same recycled topologies with new buzz words and phrases to make them pop and seem like it's something new. Also measurements given by a manufacturer are virtually meaningless and give zero indication how something will sound.

I realize that tweaking takes place, but that's hardly what I would consider "new amp technology"

Anyway, dead horse and off topic so I've said my .02c.

H9

WLDock

In the defence of the comment about "new technology" I'm sure the poster meant new , not revolutionary. Also, come on let's stop pretending... we all know that there were guys that didn't like Adcom or NAD back in the day as well as today so nothing has changed. Tech has nothing to do with why picky audiophiles like a particular brand etc.

As far as noise, it can be measured and heard.

I seriously doubt a budget audio lover would be anywhere near as picky.

Also, because of the lack of change in audio technologies, some claim voodoo and a point of diminishing returns as you go up the chain. So either these engineering tweaks and measurements (something as simple as Teflon caps) are a sonic improvement or are they marketing BS?

Not my words!

dragon1952

I probably didn't word the original post very well. I'm not an engineer and I'd probably had 4 or 5 beers plus something extra. So anyway, I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, but WLDock probably hit way closer to what I was attempting to convey and I thank him for that. I do consider my PS Audio S300 new technology. I realize Class D has been around a while but it just seems like it's now being perfected.

JPete

My garage setup now, sounds pretty decent for the coin.

NAD2200PE - $150
Kenwood Basic C1 pre - $80
Polk Monitor 10bs - $100
Klipsch SW8 sub - $50
Bluetooth receiver - $50
16awg cable - $10?

Upgraded RD0 tweeters, add another hundy, but still pretty inexpensive for decent sounds.

rooftop59

While are some great ideas, I agree that there are two very different threads going on here.

1. best used rig for under $1500
2. best NEW rig for under $1500

Most newbs don't want used stuff. One of my best friends who loves music has upgraded his modest rig a couple times. Each time, I have some used speakers or subs that destroy what he ends up with for the same $$$ or less, but he always opts for inferior new stuff.

I think the real challenge is a NEW rig, because its much harder that way and that's what most newbs want anyway...

codycatalist

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-avNUoP9eCUA/p_946PRIMEPR/SVS-Prime-Wireless-Speaker-System.html


Boom new system that streams for under $1000. Pair it up with a sealed SVS sub and ya good to go.

heiney9

Hard to get a really good audiophile rig buying only new stuff and keeping it at or under $1500.

Should be no shame in buying used, especially for the higher end stuff. Let the first owner take the depreciation hit and you swoop in and save 40-50% off retail. I haven't bought anything new since my Squeezebox Touch and even then they were on sale 40% off. The Welbourne Power supply that was built for it was on sale at 40% off as well.

I would never pay retail

H9

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

All marketing BS. Amps haven't changed that much, just some new window dressing. You're way off on the NP information as well.

All gear is built to a price point, increase the price point increases the performance. Has little to do with better technology. This is why it's important to compare like gear and not compare a $300 piece of gear to a $15,000 piece of gear.

Absolutely true (re: amplifiers), absolutely true.

One of the best hifi amplifiers I've ever heard with my ears was built by RCA in the 1940s and used to support the "touring" copies of the Disney movie Fantasia.

I know someone with a pair of these used with electrodynamic loudspeakers (from the same era, more or less) -- an astonishing hifi system.


(that's a pair of push-pull parallel EL34 Langevin amplifiers mounted under the RCA)

We're not talking budget systems, though.

jdjohn

A significant part of the challenge is 'rack' space. I've had lots of folks express interest in setting up a 2-channel rig, but then when I ask, "Do you have a place to put it?", they get a 'deer-in-the-headlights' look. I think if cables are included in the challenge, then a rack or media center, and proper speaker stands should be included as well.

To that end, I would recommend this Line Phono turntable stand:

Obviously meant to be used with a turntable, but with each shelf having 18.75"W X 14.5"D of usable space (top shelf is 16"D), it can accommodate most rack components, and even a nice stack. I have one of these, and they are very solid and sturdy - solid MDF ($219), and they have a layered Birch option as well ($299). It's something you can grow with if you get into vinyl. Start storing records in it, and then eventually move components to another rack.

And when it comes to space, or a small footprint, you can't do any better than the PS Audio Sprout. Has phono input (MM), DAC, Bluetooth, coax/USB/optical, and 50WPC > 4ohms (old version) or 100WPC > 40 ohms (new version).

mhardy6647

speaking of "cheap hifi racks" (?!)
Just saw this today on Joseph Esmilla's excellent hifi blog:
http://jelabs.blogspot.com/2019/03/ikea-knarrevik.html

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/30381183/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjpjkBRDRARIsAKv-0O2MGaoLwz0ITsXEscDruXvIPi4pxqY1rBPerto5Qhrh15kDVFPWvOMaAkc7EALw_wcB
10 bucks a pop.

Clipdat

Sprout didn't measure up so well recently: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-sprout100.7049/

verb

This reminds me of my rig in college. Some cinder blocks, and a few 2x12's, actually quite stable! And cheap!

agfrost

Clipdat wrote: »

Sprout didn't measure up so well recently: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-sprout100.7049/

Interesting cats over there. Wholesale review of a product with no listening done. (Not exactly true: the headphone amp had enough POWER to cause his earlobes to tingle with the bass (also, could listen without *distortion*--but how did it *sound*?)

Any way, making measurements, to me, seems like a nice way to corroborate what the ears are telling a listener. One hears "black background" and you measure "low noise"? That makes sense. One hears channel imbalance and this is backed up by measurements? Good to see that it's the equipment and not my ears!

I'm not going to denigrate the fine denizens of ASR, but it seems that the "measurement of gear" is far more important than the "listening to music". That's fine, but it doesn't match what I'm interested in hearing (ha!) about that
gear. To me, how does it sound? A review comprised of "This thing sounds like crap" is frankly more meaningful to me than all those graphs, whether they be deemed good measurements or bad ones.

If it measures great and I find it unlistenable, should I be happy with the gear anyway? If it measures like garbage and sounds sublime, do I box it up and return it to its manufacturer for a refund (minus a 30% stocking fee)?

I am fully confident that FFT can "hear" things that my ears cannot. Should I worry about an ugly graph if all my ears perceive is 'beautiful sound'? I'll choose not to. Likewise, I believe the human ears can make distinguish differences in audio performance that the many graphs, curves, waterfalls and spectra don't manage to differentiate. Does that mean a person is wrong, that they are not being "objective" enough? Well, not in my opinion.

Never occurred to me like this before, but there's different ways to appreciate audio much in the same way that guys can appreciate cars in different ways. One car forum, maybe they only care about "go-fast," and don't care about any other aspect of the car. A second forum, they're all about appearance, "stance." They spend countless hours washing, polishing, clay-barring, tinting, pinstriping, and cambering so that their rides look just right. Speed? Who cares? Parked is best so everyone can appreciate the beauty! Heck throw in a 3rd group of dudes for whom its about bass, SPL, whatever.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it would likely be difficult to flit back and forth between this forum and ASR--seems like I cannot understand why they're never listening to music and they'd laugh at how I naively trust my fallible ears...

Enjoy the music, that's what I say.

Peace!

rooftop59

heiney9 wrote: »

Hard to get a really good audiophile rig buying only new stuff and keeping it at or under $1500.

Should be no shame in buying used, especially for the higher end stuff. Let the first owner take the depreciation hit and you swoop in and save 40-50% off retail. I haven't bought anything new since my Squeezebox Touch and even then they were on sale 40% off. The Welbourne Power supply that was built for it was on sale at 40% off as well.

I would never pay retail

H9

I get ya man. The only piece of NEW audio equipment I have purchased in years is my HSU sub, and that’s because they’re a great value and expensive to ship. I’m all about good used deals.

My point is this: find someone who wants to get into audio and convince them to buy all (or mostly) 20+ year old gear. They’ll look at you like you’ve lost it. You’re not going to convince to many folks to get into audio that way....

mhardy6647

agfrost wrote: »

Clipdat wrote: »

Sprout didn't measure up so well recently: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-sprout100.7049/

Interesting cats over there. Wholesale review of a product with no listening done. (Not exactly true: the headphone amp had enough POWER to cause his earlobes to tingle with the bass (also, could listen without *distortion*--but how did it *sound*?)

Any way, making measurements, to me, seems like a nice way to corroborate what the ears are telling a listener. One hears "black background" and you measure "low noise"? That makes sense. One hears channel imbalance and this is backed up by measurements? Good to see that it's the equipment and not my ears!

I'm not going to denigrate the fine denizens of ASR, but it seems that the "measurement of gear" is far more important than the "listening to music". That's fine, but it doesn't match what I'm interested in hearing (ha!) about that
gear. To me, how does it sound? A review comprised of "This thing sounds like crap" is frankly more meaningful to me than all those graphs, whether they be deemed good measurements or bad ones.

If it measures great and I find it unlistenable, should I be happy with the gear anyway? If it measures like garbage and sounds sublime, do I box it up and return it to its manufacturer for a refund (minus a 30% stocking fee)?

I am fully confident that FFT can "hear" things that my ears cannot. Should I worry about an ugly graph if all my ears perceive is 'beautiful sound'? I'll choose not to. Likewise, I believe the human ears can make distinguish differences in audio performance that the many graphs, curves, waterfalls and spectra don't manage to differentiate. Does that mean a person is wrong, that they are not being "objective" enough? Well, not in my opinion.

Never occurred to me like this before, but there's different ways to appreciate audio much in the same way that guys can appreciate cars in different ways. One car forum, maybe they only care about "go-fast," and don't care about any other aspect of the car. A second forum, they're all about appearance, "stance." They spend countless hours washing, polishing, clay-barring, tinting, pinstriping, and cambering so that their rides look just right. Speed? Who cares? Parked is best so everyone can appreciate the beauty! Heck throw in a 3rd group of dudes for whom its about bass, SPL, whatever.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it would likely be difficult to flit back and forth between this forum and ASR--seems like I cannot understand why they're never listening to music and they'd laugh at how I naively trust my fallible ears...

Enjoy the music, that's what I say.

Peace!

Amir should measure a single-ended 2A3 amplifier. That would be entertaining. His brain would explode.

agfrost

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Amir should measure a single-ended 2A3 amplifier. That would be entertaining. His brain would explode.

Difficult to choose between "like," "agree," or "LOL." All of the above.

agfrost

Everyone, Behold! My longest post in 14 years at Club Polk.

It's wildly off-topic.

WLDock

codycatalist wrote: »

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-avNUoP9eCUA/p_946PRIMEPR/SVS-Prime-Wireless-Speaker-System.html
Boom new system that streams for under $1000. Pair it up with a sealed SVS sub and ya good to go.

Yep! I posted those and a couple of the KEF active speakers on page two. I could easily see the liquid cash strapped gotta have it now types buying a new setup like this with a credit card over the net. No time to save and wait for used stuff to pop up locally.

verb wrote: »

This reminds me of my rig in college. Some cinder blocks, and a few 2x12's, actually quite stable! And cheap!

No bricks for me, I had a JCPenney MCS rack system when I got my own apartment in college around '86-'87. Its was my first CD player and I picked up some Marantz speakers to go with it....they were sitting on milk crates.


Here's a nice list: http://hifitrends.com/2019/03/03/10-building-blocks-for-your-budget-affordable-2-channel-audiophile-system-2019/

mhardy6647

verb wrote: »

This reminds me of my rig in college. Some cinder blocks, and a few 2x12's, actually quite stable! And cheap!

My only critique -- you missed the opportunity to upgrade to the audiophile concrete blocks. A rookie mistake.



BITD (as they say) Ficus plants were typically used as room treatments, too.

machone

Tony M wrote: »

Let him plug his phone or stream from what-ever to an older receiver.

Unless you're promoting separate components only.

Or for higher quality get a Raspberry Pi with a Hifiberry dac hat and control it with a phone. Stream everything and connect a local drive if desired. One could save using the RPi without the dac hat.

steveinaz

For $1500 new, I would personally buy:

1. Yamaha A-S301 Integrated amp
2. Bluesound Node 2i streamer
3. Elac Uni-fi UB5 speakers.

steveinaz

...btw, I have enough $$ left to get cables.

codycatalist

steveinaz wrote: »

...btw, I have enough $$ left to get cables.

But what about a sub? Those bookies ain't gon' scratch the bass itch.

steveinaz

...not a fan. Tried 2.1 TWICE, both fails.

codycatalist

steveinaz wrote: »

...not a fan. Tried 2.1 TWICE, both fails.

I've never successfully integrated a sub into my music rig either. At the end of the day the SDAs have enough bass to satisfy.

rooftop59

steveinaz wrote: »

...not a fan. Tried 2.1 TWICE, both fails.

In all fairness Steve, the crossover in SVS subs aren’t super accurate, those weren’t sealed subs, and they didn’t have high level inputs. I think you can integrate a sub well, but at the least you MUST have an accurate crossover imho...

rooftop59

steveinaz wrote: »

For $1500 new, I would personally buy:

1. Yamaha A-S301 Integrated amp
2. Bluesound Node 2i streamer
3. Elac Uni-fi UB5 speakers.

I like this setup except I’m not sure if the amp is powerful enough, but it would definitely be a nice entry point!

oldschlpolkie

I’m all for the used stuff I can now buy the type of equipment I couldn’t afford when I was younger. I hit garage sales, flea markets, rummage sale, eBay etc. looking for diamonds in the rough. In my bedroom 2 channel:

Pre B&K 31 (30 w/ upgrade) $50 EBay
Amp Onkyo m504 $30 garage sale
SACD Marantz DV8400 $150 EBay
Polk RTA 8t $150 EBay
TT Nikko NP-500 Free from my brother but prob $50 value.

I have an Energy surround system w/ sub going into one of my daughters rooms that I picked up for $30 at a rummage sale. The kicker was that it came with kimber speaker cable too. The cables went to my system and she’ll get monster cable. Lol

Sometimes paitience pays dividends!

StevePaige

Being a semi-mature noob (about 2 years) with limited funds, putting together a few systems on a budget, while not being beholden to either new or old/vintage, has been fun. That being said here are a couple of budget setups.

Garage
Echo Dot $40 retail
Audiosource Amp 1A $5 estate sale
Polk 5 (w/peerless) $6 GW, $20 (1 passive) & 30 (1 tweet)
$101

Office
Technics SLD2 $70 yardsale
ART DJ Pre II Phono Amp $34 Amazon
Bose Wave Radio $400 (b'day from the wife)
(I know...but it's lack of detail is why I got into this)
$504

HT
Pioneer SX-S30 $399 Amazon
Polk TL1 pair $10 GW
Polk PSW110 $25 Craigslist
$434

Main System
Technics SL-1360 $165 Craigslist
Yamaha CR-820 $180 Friend
Pioneer SX-1000TW $100 Craigslist
Boston HD9 $85 Craigslist
KLH Model 17 $125 local shop
(swap receivers and speakers on occasion)
$655

New items $873
Old/Vintage $821
Total $1694

The wires used for speakers in my setups are 14 guage stranded copper from a local car audio electronics shop.

I haven't moved into HD streaming and DACs as of yet, but not a bad start. I am enjoying this hobby, though trying to approach audiophile levels is not what I am about at the moment

verb

That's awesome! Nice bunch of rigs you got there buddy! You're probably like me, always looking around to find the deal! Part of the journey, and fun! Welcome to CP!