Stereo Imaging Refinement, and How To Disappear* Speakers?

msg

(*that title was a bit of a joke - I never knew one could use the word disappear as a verb with object - the magician then disappeared the card...) but I've heard it a few times recently and it makes me laugh

I think I've discovered an area of hi-fi I'm not sure I want to be aware of.

A couple of weeks ago I had my first experience with speakers disappearing.

A little background...

I've not been able successfully setup a full size system and experience profound stereo imaging. By profound stereo imaging, I mean these experiences where you can place the players on the sound stage in front of you. In lesser experiences, that placement is in 2D. Most of the time, I can get a strong center image, and I'll hear stuff channel-specific when it's obvious.

In the better imaging experiences, there's a depth element. As I understand it, one can even experience height in this as well.

Another area I've read about and not experienced is this report of sound-stage expanding past the outsides of the loudspeakers. I've only had that here and there, otherwise mostly inside.

So, a few weeks ago I started playing around with a set of Audioengine HD3 powered monitors I picked up from @markmarc . Set them up with a sub, and connected over USB to the Macbook Pro I use at my small desk in my main space for both work and play, along with a small Sunfire SDS8 sub to fill in the bottom.

I have never experienced imaging like I am with these little speakers. I sometimes hear sounds out past the side of the speaker, and from a point deeper in the room, as I mentioned on @Clipdat 's PS Audio amp review thread, sounding almost like voice thrown. Arresting is the word that comes to mind when this happens, because it literally stops me, and I look over to that area where the sound came from, and then I realize what's happening. It is a level of stereo enjoyment all new to me.

The speaker disappearing thing - that was strange and completely new, and unfortunately, a bit accidental. I've never experienced that before. I was sitting there enjoying the music one night in the early days experimenting with this setup, and it occurred to me that I couldn't locate the speaker. I was staring right at it, but there was no sound coming out of it! I had to actually lean in and put my ear to it to confirm that it was playing. I sat back and just shook my head, and remembered that that's something I've seen Skip talking about over the years, and I couldn't quite understand what it meant.

This is all great, but the problem is, it was sort of an accident, I can't quite seem to replicate it.

How the heck can a speaker disappear?
And are there any tricks to achieving this level of performance?
Can it only be had with certain levels of equipment, or can anyone with a decent setup get there?
Is it due to the channel separation in the system?

This setup is super modest right now. Basic USB cable out of the MBP into the HD3s' DAC. Cheap RCA to the sub. HD3s are sitting on some foam monitor pads (I think the height and angle here is what was getting me to that level of imaging, because I don't think I've had it again since adjusting the angle and height when I added the Audioengine "stands" on top of the foam)

I have questions.

Last side note here - have any of you headphone listeners ever experienced anything like this? I've never had any of this imaging sensation with headphones. Is it possible?

mhardy6647

Verbing weirds language.

msg

@verb ^^^ haha

SCompRacer

IMO, speaker placement and acoustic treatments. Do room sweeps and adjust/treat until you get the midrange frequency response as flat as possible in your room.

nooshinjohn

I have that every time I turn my system on. Imagine 6 foot tall, two foot wide boxes disappearing. I swear David Copperfield lives inside my stereo somewhere.

codycatalist

I get this with my 2Bs quite often...granted obviously they throw a huge soundstage. In my small room I RECENTLY (after some tweaks and additions) started getting depth, I have always had a wide and tall soundstage but the depth was something new. Everything got pulled back a little...and I like it.

Have I ever thought to myself "Can I tell where the speakers are"...meh sometimes but nothing substantial. Headphones I always have great imaging and soundstage but I can't wrap my head around how they might disappear, you know besides me wearing them so long I forget they are on my head but I digress.

What have I found that matters? Like Skip said...everything. Once I got a tube buffer* into my system the depth came in, the soundstage got wider and music just plain more enjoyable. I can't attribute it directly to the buffer*, it just is the combination I have going on right now. Crossovers finally breaking in, nice tubes that are broken in, my amp just so happens to mesh well with my Denon Pre. I'm...just...happy and content. There are things I want to improve but I am not at the point of being so critical of my sound all the time.

As to what you can do to get that experience back, I think you answered your own question. Placement, that is the only thing that changed. Mess around with them, it's not like they are 200lb beasts. Experiment with placement from the back wall, toe in, angle them facing up or down. Just have fun, the rewards will come in time.

*Tube buffer has a little gain so really more like a preamp but whatever. The external linear power supply helps i'm sure over the wall wart. I just haven't ever plugged it in with the supplied PS, I went straight into something better.

dromunds

That’s why I love my Dahlquist DQ-30i’s and DQM-9C monitors - they image like a mother and the soundstage is absolutely huge. They completely disappear.

msg

Thaaaat's what I'm talkin' about.
Speaker manufacturers need to start putting lines like that in their marketing materials.

Joey_V

msg wrote: »

(*that title was a bit of a joke - I never knew one could use the word disappear as a verb with object - the magician then disappeared the card...) but I've heard it a few times recently and it makes me laugh

I think I've discovered an area of hi-fi I'm not sure I want to be aware of.

A couple of weeks ago I had my first experience with speakers disappearing.

A little background...

I've not been able successfully setup a full size system and experience profound stereo imaging. By profound stereo imaging, I mean these experiences where you can place the players on the sound stage in front of you. In lesser experiences, that placement is in 2D. Most of the time, I can get a strong center image, and I'll hear stuff channel-specific when it's obvious.

In the better imaging experiences, there's a depth element. As I understand it, one can even experience height in this as well.

Another area I've read about and not experienced is this report of sound-stage expanding past the outsides of the loudspeakers. I've only had that here and there, otherwise mostly inside.

So, a few weeks ago I started playing around with a set of Audioengine HD3 powered monitors I picked up from @markmarc . Set them up with a sub, and connected over USB to the Macbook Pro I use at my small desk in my main space for both work and play, along with a small Sunfire SDS8 sub to fill in the bottom.

I have never experienced imaging like I am with these little speakers. I sometimes hear sounds out past the side of the speaker, and from a point deeper in the room, as I mentioned on @Clipdat 's PS Audio amp review thread, sounding almost like voice thrown. Arresting is the word that comes to mind when this happens, because it literally stops me, and I look over to that area where the sound came from, and then I realize what's happening. It is a level of stereo enjoyment all new to me.

The speaker disappearing thing - that was strange and completely new, and unfortunately, a bit accidental. I've never experienced that before. I was sitting there enjoying the music one night in the early days experimenting with this setup, and it occurred to me that I couldn't locate the speaker. I was staring right at it, but there was no sound coming out of it! I had to actually lean in and put my ear to it to confirm that it was playing. I sat back and just shook my head, and remembered that that's something I've seen Skip talking about over the years, and I couldn't quite understand what it meant.

This is all great, but the problem is, it was sort of an accident, I can't quite seem to replicate it.

How the heck can a speaker disappear?
And are there any tricks to achieving this level of performance?
Can it only be had with certain levels of equipment, or can anyone with a decent setup get there?
Is it due to the channel separation in the system?

This setup is super modest right now. Basic USB cable out of the MBP into the HD3s' DAC. Cheap RCA to the sub. HD3s are sitting on some foam monitor pads (I think the height and angle here is what was getting me to that level of imaging, because I don't think I've had it again since adjusting the angle and height when I added the Audioengine "stands" on top of the foam)

I have questions.

Last side note here - have any of you headphone listeners ever experienced anything like this? I've never had any of this imaging sensation with headphones. Is it possible?

It’s the room

You experienced nearfield listening.

The majority of what you hear in your main system are reflections.

Any speaker can potentially disappear to varying degrees.

mhardy6647

Joey_V wrote: »

...
Any speaker can potentially disappear to varying degrees.

Naaah. There are (i.e., there have been) some profoundly opaque (i.e., the opposite of transparent) loudspeakers foisted on the buying public over the years.

Canonical examples, IMO, include virtually* every monkey coffin Realistic loudspeaker sold by Radio Shack in the 1970s and 80s.

________________
* The weasel word virtually being added, of course, because all generalizations are false -- including this one. Like monkeys with typewriters, even Radio Shack, perhaps accidentally, turned out a couple of monkey coffins without their signature, opaque, coupla bumpy-thumpy boxes sound.

Jim Shearer

I agree that EVERYTHING matters, but IME, the most important item in the chain is the speaker. This is my experience, so YMMV: the two most important things are the diffraction signature of the speaker baffle (driver placement, baffle size & shape, grills, etc.) and the transient response of the XO. A nearly transient perfect XO makes a huge difference, and there are a lot of very expensive speakers that fail in this regard.

The cheap & fun way to experiment with this is to make some DIY single driver speakers--some times referred to as 'full range drivers', but they are in fact only wide range drivers.

For about $30 you can put together a pair of Cornu spiral horns using Vifa (Tympani) TC9FD drivers and some foam core board. See at the giant thread:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/225622-building-cornu-spiral-horn.html
They have some terrible flaws--and don't expect any real bass, but what you get when you hang a pair of them on a wall is pretty amazing!

mhardy6647

My hifi certainly sounds much better to me with speakers than without.

I have heard the lams (laminations) on output transformers sing, but the SPL is pretty low and the bandwidth fairly limited.

tonyb

If any of you need your speakers to disappear, call me...be happy to accommodate everyone.

Glad you were able to finally experience it. Sometimes it's just a matter of everything being right at the same time. Other times, no matter what you do , you can't seem to make it happen.

In my experiences, if you don't start with the right speakers that are capable, like Skip suggested, you won't get there no matter what you do otherwise.

Placement, room conditioning, even lighting and ambiance, mood, play a roll. So many variables, little time. When everything is right though, you just never want to stop listening. You know that tomorrow when you turn on the system, the magic will be gone.

codycatalist

tonyb wrote: »

Placement, room conditioning, even lighting and ambiance, mood, play a roll. So many variables, little time. When everything is right though, you just never want to stop listening. You know that tomorrow when you turn on the system, the magic will be gone.

So true, too often I have had a great listening session just to come back the next day like what is this I am hearing, nothing like before. Other days I come back and the magic returns.

Gotta love audio.

audioluvr

I noticed my system takes about an hour of playing to get the magic to happen

ALL212

Hmmm....
One of my requirements for a speaker in my main rig or any serious setup is that it gets disappeared. My main setup disappears itself without effort. I can look right at the speaker and swear that the sound is not coming from it. The imaging is somewhere either between the speakers or around the speakers but not seeming to come from the speakers even when looking right at them. Placement of voices and music making devices should be located easily and specifically.

Speakers, room treatments, toe in, height, spikes, cables, humidity...pick something and it all matters. Some to a greater degree than others.

Until recently I hadn't experienced this with headphones but the ZMF's have done it on a couple of selections.

steveinaz

If you really want to hear speakers disappear, take them outside with zero boundries, and listen. Best if you can do it on a very calm (non-breezy) day.

cvc

Make sure your ears are at tweeter level.. Most people sit to far away.. Move in close.. Get in there for stereo listening!.. 5' to 6' close..

Listen in the dark, with your eyes closed and it will ALL disappear..

pitdogg2

What's your address I'll disappear'em....

DarqueKnight

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I have that every time I turn my system on. Imagine 6 foot tall, two foot wide boxes disappearing. I swear David Copperfield lives inside my stereo somewhere.

But your "true stereo" speakers are specifically designed to "disappear".

msg wrote: »

I've not been able successfully setup a full size system and experience profound stereo imaging. By profound stereo imaging, I mean these experiences where you can place the players on the sound stage in front of you. In lesser experiences, that placement is in 2D. Most of the time, I can get a strong center image, and I'll hear stuff channel-specific when it's obvious.

Experiment with toe in and distance from the front plane of the speakers. The LSiM 707s in my home theater project sound images up to 4 feet in front of the speaker plane, up to 3 feet from the speaker sides, with up to 6 feet of front to back depth.

joecoulson

The Lsim’s were very good for me when hooked up. It’s surprising how well the imaged. I just didn’t like them for critical 2ch.

The Elacs throw a great soundstage but are delicate enough for beautiful nuances in the quietest of classical. Been quite happy.

Reading through this thread I realized something. After the addition of the AQ Niagara, the times that I turned on my system and it didn’t sound good (which was frequent previous to that addition) all but disappeared. I have to wonder if the issue of inconsistency with systems is power related? Has to be right?

mikeyb128

First time I heard speakers that disappeared were focal Aria, I Actually went up to the speaker to see if it was playing anything. I’ve found several factors that can affect stereo imaging, and the ability for the speaker to disappear. The speaker itself is one, and equipment. Speaker positioning, first and second reflection points, and that bare area in the center behind the speakers. Speakers pulled out away from the wall, and no equipment stacked higher than the tweeter and midrange, this is a huge one, as it destroys imaging. I think I’ve spend at least 100 hours playing with speaker position, seems like anything near your speaker will kill imaging. As far from the back wall as you can without killing bass response. And of course get some tubes in there somewhere.