Burn-In - Myth or Magic?

ninerbj

Finally!
A shared view on a very touchy subject

http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin

Good read!

Thanks
Brad

PolkWannabie

Whether it's burn in or cable / interconnect manufacturers and price, one is capable of convincing oneself of almost anything.

IMHO the best solution to this is to test any and all of this stuff without knowing in advance what one is testing. If one can hear the difference without knowing that it's a $1000 set of speaker cables instead of Home Depots finest then there may in fact be some value, but if one can't pretty consistantly pick out the more expensive whatever without knowing in advance that it is, than that too says something too.

PolkThug

The best thing you can do is go to the mall and get 40 feet of gold on a roll, then cut it into 4 ten feet sections, and use as speaker wire. The properties of electroplated gold chain are an audiophile's wet dream. The transcapacitance of gold on a roll will outperform the most expensive cables. Plus, there is no break-in period because there is no dielectric around the gold. The bass will be hard, deep and tight. The soundstage will be wide and deep and the treble is crystal clear.

Regards,
PolkThug

HBombToo

Originally posted by PolkThug
The best thing you can do is go to the mall and get 40 feet of gold on a roll, then cut it into 4 ten feet sections, and use as speaker wire. The properties of electroplated gold chain are an audiophile's wet dream. The transcapacitance of gold on a roll will outperform the most expensive cables. Plus, there is no break-in period because there is no dielectric around the gold. The bass will be hard, deep and tight. The soundstage will be wide and deep and the treble is crystal clear.

Regards,
PolkThug

Are you smoking CRACK??? if so can I have some please:D

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by PolkThug
The best thing you can do is go to the mall and get 40 feet of gold on a roll, then cut it into 4 ten feet sections, and use as speaker wire.
Regards,
PolkThug

LOL ... You've tried this ?! ... At the prices of some speaker cables these days this is what one should expect the product to be made of and in 24k.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by PolkThug
The best thing you can do is go to the mall and get 40 feet of gold on a roll, then cut it into 4 ten feet sections, and use as speaker wire. The properties of electroplated gold chain are an audiophile's wet dream. The transcapacitance of gold on a roll will outperform the most expensive cables. Plus, there is no break-in period because there is no dielectric around the gold. The bass will be hard, deep and tight. The soundstage will be wide and deep and the treble is crystal clear.

Regards,
PolkThug

You're kidding right?

PolkThug

Originally posted by HBombToo
Are you smoking CRACK??? if so can I have some please:D

haha yep.

Hopefully, Tour will send me the two pairs of interconnects soon and we will have a double-blind test at my place with the help of my lovely fiance. And we can drink Boulevard Wheat, with or w/out a slice of lemon.

madmax

Originally posted by ninerbj
Finally!
A shared view on a very touchy subject

http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin

Good read!

Thanks
Brad

Chances are he does not ever want to be caught believing in something that isn't true. He will never be able to hear a difference even if it is an obvious one. I feel awful for him.

madmax

PhantomOG

Originally posted by madmax
I feel awful for him.

why?

madmax

Because he will never be able to enjoy the benifits I've recently enjoyed with some new cables and burn in. His mind is set and even if he tried it in the future he will ignore the results. He is stuck where he is and will never advance from that position. There is so far to go in audio and for whatever reason he has decided not to accept something he doesn't understand. To me that is limiting and very sad. Sometimes to learn something new you have to experience it. If you are unwilling to do that you will never advance from where you are.
madmax

TheGrayGhost

” There is so far to go in audio and for whatever reason he has decided not to accept something he doesn't understand.”

Is that any different than you accepting something that you don’t understand?

madmax

Originally posted by TheGrayGhost
” There is so far to go in audio and for whatever reason he has decided not to accept something he doesn't understand.”

Is that any different than you accepting something that you don’t understand?

Absolutely not. It is no different. I am an electrical engineer and I cannot give you any reason whatsoever why my new MIT cables sound different after several hours of burn in. I would like to know why and I totally belive that I could perform multiple tests on capacitance, inductance and resistance and not come up with a difference. The only reason I can come up with is that the ear is much more precise than the info I could come up with using 25K plus worth of equipment. I have actually worked with long cables with very small signals which qualifies me more than most of you to come up with the answer but no, I have not. I can hear the difference and no, I have no reason in my mind at this point why it is better. There is not much more I can say. ??
madmax

EDIT: Let me also point out that recently I've been offered $0.25 for my brain power in full by SteveCramer (and that may be a good deal) but like most of you I can hear two different things and point out which I think is better. Let me say this though, if you already know everything then there is not much point in talking about it. (not "you" personally, just in general) The guy in the article already knows everything. I read it a few times and I can tell you he is either not an audiophile or he can't hear too well.

PhantomOG

my only suggestion is to not try to sway someone who has already formed an opinion.

as you said, he already knows everything, and well, obviously you do as well.

as a fellow EE i find your comment that your ears are better than equipment humorous at best. i know there is a long list of other animals that can hear a hell of a lot more than humans, and i think it is silly that you think mankind has not, and can not develop equipment to more thoroughly physically quantify and measure every aspect of "sound".

but again, I'm not trying to sway your opinion. you do what makes you happy, but don't feel sorry for those that do the same but in a different way. :cool:

F1nut

I'll trust my ears as that is what God gave me to use. I can tell you that burn in is real and different cables give different results and I don't need a stinking machine to tell me why. The fact that someone would trust a machine over their own ears is foolish at best. There isn't now and never will be a machine that can tell me what sounds good to my ears and that IS the bottom line.

madmax

Thanks ATC but acutually that was what I was thinking.

PhantomOG, can you answer the following? Not trying to be a dick or anything (well after re-reading your statement about me thinking I know everything maybe I am) but you made some pretty stong statements. As a matter of fact I believe I said I was offered 0.25 for all of my knowledge and said that was a good deal. Show me what I am missing here.

I'm calling you out on this one because you said I think I know everything which is far beyond what anyone else around here will tell you I think.

Can you show me on a scope (or whatever type of equipment you are speaking of in particular) what causes a sound to to be more forward than another?
Have you ever actually seen an audio signal on a scope of some sort?

What does it look like?

What I've been able to capture is so complex that I cannot tell what is going on. How do you analize it?

Is your scope (of whatever type) able to track the complexity or does it represent a given number of samples?

How many samples are required before it can display it?

Actually, given that you know what I mean by a sound that is more forward than another how would I identify that?

Do you really think you can see more on the equipment than what your ears are hearing? Seriously? What equipment are you using? These are all serious questions.

Give me something here so I can believe you know what you are talking about. Your an EE right? Are you one that does stuff or one who just knows everything?

Also, what experience have you had with cables?

madmax

madmax

Aw,
Forget it. I'm sure you guys are right. I mean if you have a $75 CD, a $200 amp with 0.0001%THD, $20 in cables which measure less than 0.02 ohms and a pair of polks it doesn't get any better.:)
madmax

PolkWannabie

MM,

I personally would never classify myself as an audiophile ... enhusiast sure ...

I also don't pretend to have a myriad of great test equipment which is probably just as well as I'm sure I wouldn't know what to do with it if I did.

As I have stated before, I personally believe that if one can objectively and consistantly hear better results in one setup from another then there is probably something worthwhile in that setup at least for ones own listening which is all that really matters.

Some things that I have tested objectively I can clearly hear differences in, others I can not.

Speaker break in happens to be one thing that I have personally witnessed as having a positive effect several times and every time it surprises me. I have no logical argument for why that is and although most scientific articles on the subject I've read about it say that it should make no difference, imho it's clearly there to be heard.

I can also hear differences in interconnects and speaker wire although I would not state that there is necessarily a direct correlation between what either costs and how good or not they are to listen to.

I can also hear differences between biamping the front sound stage and not but for whatever reason I have never heard any differences between biwiring and not when a sufficiently good amp and quality cables are used to begin with, especially if one also uses the same cables as jumpers between upper and lower terminals as opposed to the typical jumper plates that speakers come with.

As far as wire break in goes I can't say that I've ever noticed a difference and I would be somewhat skeptical about cable break in having a positive effect but then I also can't say I objectively tested for it either.

The peculiar thing about this hobby is that it's almost all subjective. What sounds good to one person ( Klipsch horns for example ) sound awful to others ( me, yuk ) no offense, that's just the way it is. From anyone elses perspective it should hardly matter whether I like component X over component Y since no one else needs to listen to those things that appeal to me and everyone really should be encouraged to make their own choices. I think the best any of us can do for our individual setups is objectively test as best we can, make decisions and move on to the fun part, LISTENING, which is why we're all doing this to begin with, isn't it ?

PhantomOG

woah... i didn't think my statements were that "strong" but i guess they came off that way.

anyways, my statement about you knowing everything was just a reference to the fact that the person in the article seemed to be definitive in his point of view to the point that he felt everyone who felt differently was wrong, and conversely, (from what I read) you felt just as definitive in your beliefs that you felt he was wrong.

my whole point was just to make your own conclusions but don't say other people are wrong for theirs. you've already said there is no way to "prove" this so arguing about who is wrong is pointless.

make sense???

PolkWannabie

Yep ... pointless ... let's shut down Club Polk ...

madmax

Some day if audio reproduction ever reaches perfection there will be no need for discussion. I'd suggest we leave club polk up until then.

I guess the guys article annoyed me because he is where I was a long time ago (maybe 1990) and is pretty much telling others not to look any further. The difference is that I didn't stop there. He took the easy way out by accepting only the portions which are easily proven. One of the older magazines I used to read (The Audio Critic) did this same thing. After I figured out what they were doing I moved on and what do you know, my system started advancing.
madmax

PolkWannabie

Most audio mags aren't worth the paper they're printed on ... when was the last time we saw a bad ( honest ) review of something. Not everything can be wonderful can it ?

ninerbj

Chances are he does not ever want to be caught believing in something that isn't true. He will never be able to hear a difference even if it is an obvious one. I feel awful for him.

would this person you feel awful for madmax happen to be me by chance?

madmax

No, not at all. Unless maybe you were so absolutely convinced that you were writing things in such a strong manor as to be holding back others which I've never seen you do. He is taking the position of being the absolute authority. I didn't see you doing that. I would assume if you heard a difference today you would probably be able to change your mind? Never even thought that you were like that.
madmax

ninerbj

Your right Max, I am not like that, most of the time anyway:o

The cable "burn in" theory is something I have always had a hard time getting my thick skull around. Keeping in mind the word "theory"...I just can't accept that a cable of any kind can improve itself with use.
Do I believe some cables through resistance do better than others? Of course I do. I myself had spent my fair share of coin looking and listening for the nervana that some of these companys have promised me, and with my experince, have found little to no change in sound factor at all.

What I have noticed in the last 25 years of being in this world of audio, is every day can be different. I swear my system can change it's overall sound without doing a damn thing to it! This to me can be frustrating because I want/need to know why!
Is it room temp? Is it because I left the amp on? Is there more or less interference in the power supply today? Did I forget to take out the Q-tips in my ears?

ALL if it is a mystery of the church of theory. Even though we all belong to the same church, we still hear and believe things differently.
Amen, and rock on my fellow babies!

Brad

mantis

OK burn in.......

I don't care what they say,I only care in what I hear.It can have all the tech spec's and reasons that it does or notBUT if I cannot hear it then it's not real to me......

Burn in I have noticed better sounding cables,speakers,and even amps.Heated up amps sound better to me.When they are cold they seem thin.

Cables need time to burn in in order to hear them correctly.There is tech reasons why and it's about the dielectric but again you have to beable to hear it.

Myth or not it's in the hearing.........again it's in the hearing

Once more if you can hear it,it's real if you can't it's a myth

Done deal,
Dan

madmax

To start with I wish I had just stayed out of this thread. There are threads like my MIT burn in thread which you guys stayed out of then there is this thread on anti-burn in which I should have stayed out of. It's only right, right??

Beyond that I used to listen to my system every night. Sometimes it was awesome and other times it really sucked. Several of us have had this same discussion off the forum.

Mine just stopped doing that when I got a really good CD source. It has been over a month and not once has it sounded bad. Just a single point on a big chart!

madmax

danger boy

i'm in the middle of burning in a pair of Signal Cable 2's right now i just bought from Frank @ signal cable.

He recommends burning in his cables for about 50 hours. I leave such information up to the "experts". He builds the darn things... I'd think he would know if cable burn in was indeed fact or fiction. I trust his knowledge in this dept.

Like others, I too have my doubts whether cable burn in does anything for the sound quality or not. I honestly in most cases can not hear any difference once a cable have been burned in or not.

On the other hand.. we know that speakers, and other stereo and home theater components seem to change some of their sound after it's had some time to settle down after so many hours of use. I kind of doubt that running a signal thru a cable could have the same effect. but i don't know that for sure.

PolkThug

What will make a 10ft cable be capable of transmitting better sound, playing music through it for 40 hours, or shortening its length by 3 ft?

Regards,
PolkThug

madmax

Shortening it or lengthing it can make an equal difference depending on what is affecting your sound. (RF wise). Lets say a particular length is causing a problem. The reason it might be causing the problem could be that its resonant frequency is the same as an RF frequency in the area. In this case either solution could lead to better sound.

One thing I read was that any cable can cause problems. The best you can do is to select another cable which does not cause the same problem in the same location.

Isn't this stuff cool!

madmax

Gary Robertson

Yes,, i went all out and laid out four thousand dollars for ACOUSTIC ZEN calbles and innerconnects and i thought they were fantastic but after one year of hard driving burn in the very same ones make are now way better by at least 6 fold..."magic"???.....BY ALL MEANS yes. :-)---I EVEN PUT STEREOPHILES TEST cd #3 IN AND RAN PINK NOISE ON REPEAT OVER NIGHT --when the cables were new...
and heard a signifigant difference but of course they were being drven by the giant BRYSTON....MAGIC,MAGIC,MAGIC..

dorokusai

Burn In? Truth.