Upgrade to atmos 7.1.2 vs 7.1.4 vs stay at 7.1

gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
This audio upgrade bug is killing me. Debating whether to make the jump to Atmos. Main issue is that there is duct work in the ceiling that hangs down a foot from the ceiling. It is about 40" in front of my MLP (which is 36" from the rear wall) My ears are approximately 46" from ceiling. I am currently running LSiM 705 fronts, 706c centre and LSiFx for side and rears. Debating whether 4 atmos speakers are doable in this tight ceiling space or if I should just install 2 in-celing atmos speakers at the front edge of the couch. I could potentially install the rear in ceilings about 2 feet behind MLP and 1 foot from rear wall and the other heights would be about 30 inches In front of MLP.

Excuse the mess, I am looking at making some panels on the rear wall behind the listening position. Interestingly, when I was doing some REW sweeps, once the safe n sound was deeper than 6" I started getting a null at about 148 Hz which got narrower and deeper as the panel got deeper. The bass traps are already up in the rear corners. I had removed one of the black speaker cloth covers in front of one of the bass traps. I am looking at whether the speaker cloth will look ok on the ceiling close to the projector screen to darken it for watching movies on the projector vs putting some blackout curtains on the ceiling during movies.

Looks like I will have to go with either Polk 700 LS or 900 LS in ceiling speakers to match the rest of the setup. Also, will probably lower all 4 surrounds 6" to 1 foot due to atmos wanting lower surrounds, but would rather leave them where they are.. When I finally get around to deciding on what to do (if I even end up upgrading to atmos (will need a new receiver too!)), I hope it is a noticeable improvement on non 4K movies.

Thanks for help as always.
lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2

Comments

  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,898
    A pic would help.
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    ooops, forgot the pics4jmf7gbjmlpz.jpg
    kejev8ojmk0l.jpg
    5n0gohq42109.jpg
    The first pic is from MLP looking at the ductwork soffit. The second is just one of the front of the room and the last is a pic of the rear of the room and MLP.
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 18,947
    Not sure how well atmos speakers would perform overhead in a drop ceiling. My gut says Atmos would be overkill in that space.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Stradivari v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X1 preamplifier Signed by Poppa himself, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds



    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    What, are you suggesting that I not waste my money and time on this venture? Is that even allowed on this site? :p
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 18,947
    edited November 2018
    Thinking you could upgrade some other aspects. We will never tell you not to spend money. :p


    If you don't have 4K, its my understanding you wont have Atmos capability anyway, so why not upgrade what you have to get there first, then think about speakers for that ceiling.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Stradivari v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X1 preamplifier Signed by Poppa himself, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds



    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,898
    Those ceiling tiles aren’t design to support the weight of a speaker, so you would have to have a plan for that.

    The speakers would have to be placed a couple of feet in front/behind the duct run, assume that is what the painted area is. The relation to your seating position will determine if it’s feasable. Probably looking at 2 speakers for overhead duty. Don’t think 4 would add any benefit, that is if that duct run is toward the center of the room.
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    edited November 2018
    You are correct in that the duct work is the yellow painted area. I have 40 inches in front of MLP to the duct work and 36" to the back wall. Room is about 19 feet deep and 11.5 feet wide. I thought Atmos was encoded on some of the regular blurays as well, but I think as more 4k content comes out, they are going to push that format and include atmos mix on those discs and not on blu ray from what I hear. This site has been a money pit for me. LOL started with some rti10s and a csi3 centre and some r15 for surround and a velodyne sub..and have progressed to the current setup. Now if only the kids would go to sleep on time so the wife and I could enjoy some non-cartoon flicks...well, at least we all watch the marvel movies. Of topic, but the SVS aseq1 definitely helped tighten up the bass on my dual subs.
    No worries about jigging something up to support the speakers, I can do that, ideally don't want to cut into the beam of the drop down ceiling to place speakers, but will cross that hurdle once I get there.

    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • mrlorenmrloren Posts: 1,679
    edited November 2018
    Only this that comes to mid is SVS Prime Elevation speakers

    https://www.svsound.com/collections/prime-series/products/prime-elevation

    Mount them at the top of the wall
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.

    Family Room:
    Samsung UN60H,
    Denon AVR-X4400H, Emotiva XPA3 GEN3
    Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM, Sony DVP-NS3100ES, WD Live HUB.
    Main: Polk Signature S60
    Center: Polk CSi-A6
    Front High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT
    Surrounds: Polk S15
    Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5

    Bed Room;
    Sony KDF-E42A10,
    Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270
    Main: Polk Signature S20
    Center: Polk Signature S35
    Rear: Polk R15
    Sub: HSU STF-2

    Working Warehouse;
    Sony 2100ES
    4 Polk RTi4 about 15' up the wall
    Old sony 12" Sub
    Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    It's funny you mentioned the svs speakers. I was looking at those as well but then was thiinking it probably better to stay in polk lineup. But I could mount the svs under the soffit as well for optimal spacing.
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • mrlorenmrloren Posts: 1,679
    I do think it is best to stay with the same line to manufacture. Your case Polk doesn't make a speaker to fit your needs. Ceiling Tiles can take a ceiling speaker install but I don't know how it would sound. Our lobby at work has them for soft background music. Don't think they could take volume.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.

    Family Room:
    Samsung UN60H,
    Denon AVR-X4400H, Emotiva XPA3 GEN3
    Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM, Sony DVP-NS3100ES, WD Live HUB.
    Main: Polk Signature S60
    Center: Polk CSi-A6
    Front High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT
    Surrounds: Polk S15
    Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5

    Bed Room;
    Sony KDF-E42A10,
    Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270
    Main: Polk Signature S20
    Center: Polk Signature S35
    Rear: Polk R15
    Sub: HSU STF-2

    Working Warehouse;
    Sony 2100ES
    4 Polk RTi4 about 15' up the wall
    Old sony 12" Sub
    Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,120
    First off what is MLP?
    What height is to the tweeters of your current surround system?
    What Sub do you have?
    Anyway Atmos is the BOMB BUT careful placement and as correct as possible is ideal for the overall best results.
    7.1 is cool but not with Bi polar speakers. You should be using all Mono Pole style speakers for the best overall effect. Bi Polar speakers where actually designed for Dolby Pro Logic not Dolby Digital and beyond. You can however get away with Bi polar design for side surrounds just fine but not surround back.
    If your tiles are hard they will hold a in ceiling speaker all day. If they are the soft design then you would have to place a thin sheet of plywood behind the tile to support the weight of the in ceiling speakers.
    In that room I think 2 would work just fine. I don't see a need for 4 but 4 does sound incredible when properly placed.
    4k is the way to go and if your looking to upgrade, 4k is also incredible.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mrlorenmrloren Posts: 1,679
    Great idea of using the plywood @mantis actually if the supports can take it replace the tile with 1/2" MDF. If going plywood Lowe's sells a project panel (4x8) sheet that is very good and strong. I've used it for drawer bottoms https://www.lowes.com/pd/RevolutionPly-5mm-Poplar-Plywood-Application-as-4-X-8/50121135 thin and light weight and somewhat strong, or go with 6mm baltic birch.

    ATMOS and DTS-X are great. My room is not the ideal lay out for the format but it sounds way better with it all than without. I did do a day of experimenting when I put in the T15 for surrounds. from 5.1 to my 5.1.4 sounding the best. On non ATMOS and DTS-X movies the AVR will upscale to use the ceiling speakers. sounds way better than 5.1.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.

    Family Room:
    Samsung UN60H,
    Denon AVR-X4400H, Emotiva XPA3 GEN3
    Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM, Sony DVP-NS3100ES, WD Live HUB.
    Main: Polk Signature S60
    Center: Polk CSi-A6
    Front High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT
    Surrounds: Polk S15
    Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5

    Bed Room;
    Sony KDF-E42A10,
    Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270
    Main: Polk Signature S20
    Center: Polk Signature S35
    Rear: Polk R15
    Sub: HSU STF-2

    Working Warehouse;
    Sony 2100ES
    4 Polk RTi4 about 15' up the wall
    Old sony 12" Sub
    Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    edited November 2018
    I have been debating whether to just remove the back speakers and use a 5.1 setup instead. I remember reading that monopole is the best for the rears, but was getting a decent price on the LSiFx here. They have a pretty crisp sound to them. I would need some speakers that aren't too deep for the surround backs. I don't really want to do in wall rear speakers either. In all honesty, I have been thinking if a 5.1.4 might be a better setup than a 7.1.2 for my room. I have no problem jigging up something to keep the in ceilings in place. The tiles are soft, so was expecting to have to make something to keep them up there. Do in-ceilings need a hard surface towards the front for proper sound production? Not sure how much of a box they need around them for optimal sound. I am not the best carpenter, but can get the job done, especially since the work won't really be visible.

    MLP(main listening position...aka where I sit and enjoy a beverage while watching a movie). You can't really see it in the photo as it has a bunch of cushions on it in the pic so you don't see the sofa.

    As far as subwoofers are concerned, there are a couple of 150 pound SVS beasts lurking behind the sofa...taking up much of the room behind there are a pair of PB13 Ultra's...no plans to upgrade those beasts anytime soon. Putting them back there really helped clean up the room at the front which was getting super cluttered when the subs were there. Once I ran the AS EQ1 calibration, you can't really notice that they are right behind you. Using a Pioneer SC 1227k for the AVR. A B&K 5 channel power amp powers the front 3 and the side surrounds. Also using an Emotiva xsp-1 preamp hooked to the subs and the power amps and avr to emotive in home theatre bypass. The preamp is for 2 channel music (which I rarely get to sit and listen to these days). If I go atmos, thinking of a midrange Marantz AVR potentially to replace the preamp, avr and aseq1. But finding an AVR will be a separate journey!
    Thanks for all the discussion/suggestions so far.
    Oh yeah, the rear tweeters are currently at....let me go measure...70 inches from the floor and about 19 inches to ceiling.
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,263
    If you haven't already done so, look around at the Blu-ray content in Dolby ATMOS. If you are prepared to acquire it then decide if you are ready to upgrade to 4K, UHD, HDR, etc. now or at some point in time.

    For now, you can always try some from height channels using Dolby Pro Logic IIz, DTS Neo:X with your Pioneer AVR. It will give you a taste of height channels and maybe calm the upgrade bug until you figure out how best implement ATMOS / 4K to your system.

    11.x%2520speaker%2520layout%2520via%2520Denon%2520Manual.JPG
    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    edited November 2018
    That's food for thought. I shall investigate those settings on my current AVR, it's something I hadn't thought of. hmmm...maybe I should look for a good deal on some LSi7's for my rears! I spend more time thinking about the HT setup than actually using it! Currently making some panels for the rear wall that will double up as a bit of shelving on the back wall. Almost finished that, then gonna make one 6 inch panel that can go behind the centre channel during movies...Hmmm, I could store it on the new shelf in the back lol. Then gonna use some black speaker cloth to darken up the ceiling in front of the projector screen that can be rolled out during movies and then back up again when not in use (yay, multipurpose rooms!). Don't want to paint the current tiles and the speaker cloth allows the vent duct in ceiling to breathe.
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    Ended up getting a Marantz sr6012 on black Friday. First thing I noticed is that my pioneer is avr is a few inches deeper and taller than the Marantz and it weighs a few pounds more as well. I haven't had time to play around with it yet. But without any real setting up or calibration it sounds a bit warmer than the pioneer but that could just be placebo.
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,898
    No, your observation is correct.
  • gurot1gurot1 Posts: 492
    Taking awhile to get used to the volume setting going up as you put the volume up...used to the negative dB volume on previous reciver, although I think there is a setting somewhere on the Marantz to change it.

    Oddly, I don't have any urge for 4k currently (I know, I don't know what is wrong with me!). I am still enjoying the sony hw-50es that I bought used earlier in the year. Still need to tweak that to get better dark pictures. I should have picked up a 4k player that costco was clearing out for 100 bucks a few months back. Hindsight is 20/20, Of course once those nice 4K projectors come down and price and have darker blacks and HDR and be affordable (is it a case of you can have 2 of the above, but not all 3?), then I will update the projector.

    I have to see how much play my current speaker wires have in order to allow to drop the surrounds by 6 inches to a foot. Seating position on the sides of the sofa is close to the surrounds, thus can't have them at ear level (the five of us usually sit all across the sofa...and the kids know which is daddy's seat!).

    Now, got to find some in ceilings. I know polk MC60 not same caliber as the 700 ls, but I can get them a lot cheaper for the atmos speakers and at least give atmos a testing and then maybe pick up in ceilings from the ls series (although I think the ls series may be overkill for atmos) at a later point and use the MC60 in ceiling elsewhere like in the kitchen). I think a 6.5" probalby the best bet for me in my tight spaced atmos. With the MC60 I can easily try out 4 atmos channels, whereas with the LS, the price of admission is a lot more and would definitely want to make sure the 4 channels made a difference!
    lsim705,lsim706c,fx500,rti4
    rti6,csi5...no rears on system 2
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