Crossover design - phase?

zingo
zingo Posts: 11,258
in DIY, Mods & Tweaks
I need help... and that kind too...

I calculated and designed a crossover for these speakers, but it doesn’t sound right. Amazing sound quality and frequency response, but they sound spacey and disconnected at times which I think is a phase issue? I would be open to any suggestions, or even best practices for going with an active crossover set-up.

Thanks y’all!

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Jake
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Comments

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,062
    edited June 2018
    Well, you know the interrelationships of crossover order and phase.
    You also probably know that sometimes the "textbook" connection of drivers to a crossover isn't the best sounding one (there have been plenty of commercial speakers with a driver hooked up "backwards" relative to the nominally correct orientation -- and I will give some examples if needed... just gotta google!).
    You also know that even fairly simple crossovers can be mis-wired during construction.

    OK... I know that last one :p ... but it won't hurt to check and check again that everything's wired up the way you think it is! ;)

    Have you checked each speaker against the other (i.e., listened to one at a time for the effects you're hearing)?

    Have you tried flipping + and - of the speaker cable (inputs) of both speakers?

    Have you tried flipping + and - of just one speaker?

    Do you have a Cricket? They come in really, really handy at times like this.
    https://www.galaxyaudio.com/products/cpts

    What kind of measurement tools do you have at your service?

    To quote Joe Walsh, we're "looking for clues at the scene of the crime".


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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,356
    There can be all sorts of tweaks, not just crossover

    A few years ago during a late night music listening session at LSAF, we were playing around with a pair of DIY bookies. One of the listeners advised putting a pack of cigarettes underneath the front of each speaker to slant back a little.

    We then adjusted the toe-in and bingo, the speakers were sound much better.
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,775
    @face he's your guy.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,062
    so -- the spacey presentation reminds me of the effect of reversed midrange polarity between two stereo channels. Since the vocals are usually (mostly) in the center of the mix, they're in phase* in both channels. Isolating the midrange (vocals) and adding them together out of phase effectively deletes the vocalist from a mix -- they used to sell gizmos to do this, essentially for what we'd ultimately come to know as karaoke. :)

    The Thompson Vocal Eliminator :)

    6d0ntvj2mcse.png

    (It actually looks like a far more sophisticated version of this might still be around?!)

    I mention this because I am - as I intimated before - wondering whether one speaker in mono will exhibit the effect that the OP's concerned about, or if both speakers are required?

    I am really wondering if there's an inversion (i.e., in wiring) somewhere in one speaker relative to the other one?

    That's all I got. It's too hot to think today :/



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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    I appreciate the suggestions and will start by checking all the driver and terminal connection for “correct” polarity, then try inverting connections on at a time to see how it changes the sound.

    I have another pair of commerical two-way speakers next to them that I will A/B to compare presentation.
    Jake
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited June 2018
    Looks like the relative physical offset differences between the voice coil of the tweeter vs the mid bass driver have not been accounted for in your CAD diagram. The physical set back of the waveguide loaded tweeter will change its phase relationship with the woofer so they may actually be out of phase. Simply reverse the polarity of the tweeters and see if that helps.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,775
    Hello Fred ;)
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited June 2018
    What up dogg.
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,794
    Dang! Fred droppin' some knowledge!
    Hi Fred....
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    Hi back at ya Russy.
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    Thanks Fred and I will!
    Jake
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  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,850
    Why is the Tweeter out of phase to begin with?
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited July 2018
    In theory with a 2nd order 12db crossover there will be 180 degrees of phase difference between the hi pass and lowpass sections of the crossover. Reversing the polarity of the tweeter will bring them back in phase. However thats strictly just theoretical assuming no physical time delay between the drivers and their frequency responses are smooth and extended well beyond the crossover frequency. That is usually not the case and these need to be factored in to the design and may result in the need to change the tweeters polarity.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,520
    Greetings Fred! Hope all is well....
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    Well Fred switching the polarity of the tweeter brought the sound into focus! I will keep checking the crossovers and connections, but that was about a 90% improvement.
    Jake
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    h3uublpqutxz.jpeg

    I’m running these speakers with the Monoprice hybrid amp and a DIY Dayton Ultimax 18” subwoofer for testing and they sound great!
    Jake
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,062
    excellent.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    zingo wrote: »
    Well Fred switching the polarity of the tweeter brought the sound into focus! I will keep checking the crossovers and connections, but that was about a 90% improvement.
    Great. Nice little pair of speaker's with some quality drivers.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Greetings Fred! Hope all is well....
    Hey Rich,all good here except this crazy heatwave. Dang igloo is melting.

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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,775
    FTGV wrote: »
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Greetings Fred! Hope all is well....
    Hey Rich,all good here except this crazy heatwave. Dang igloo is melting.

    Dang the polar bears will be able to walk right in...
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,062
    edited July 2018
    Mrs. H was up in the Arctic last week -- well, close.
    Nome.
    And the Pribalof Islands.

    Everyone up there sez "hello".

    3vs0zlfr6vht.png
    psyouormo6gt.png

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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    pitdogg2 wrote: »

    Dang the polar bears will be able to walk right in...

    Its the rabbits we have to worry about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4

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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,792
    FTGV wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »

    Dang the polar bears will be able to walk right in...

    Its the rabbits we have to worry about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4

    Look at the bones!!
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,775
    It's just a flesh wound....
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