B&K REF31 Tuner Presets (PLEASE HELP)

oldschlpolkie

Do any of you B&K guys know how to set the tuner station presets on the B&K Ref 30/31/50? I just picked up a Ref31 off Ebay and downloaded the manual and can't figure out for the life of me how to set the presets. I feel like a moron putting it on here and not being able to figure it out but I'm stumped. By the way it's my first B&K piece and after setting up everything else it sounds amazing. Also, it didn't come with the remote so I'm wondering if thats the key to the presets.

teekay0007

I've got a B&K Reference 30. I've found that the best way to set the tuner station presets is to get a separate tuner, perhaps a Marantz or HK, set the stations you like on that piece and plug it into an unused audio line input - my favorite for this application is the satellite one - on the B&K. Then, using your 'Source' button on the B&K, select 'SAT' and you're good to go.

Hope this helps.

msg

This is funny ^^^
Because I do the exact same thing with a Ref 50.
And the tuner I use? A B&K TS-108

OSP - do you have a B&K remote? If so, can you post a photo and also a pdf of the manual. It's not too hard to set presets, it just doesn't work quite the same way it works with a standard tuner. You're not actually setting a tuner preset, per se, with B&K units. It's more you're setting a preset for a combination of system settings - source input and all its associated settings, etc. It just so happens you're in tuner mode and changing the frequency when saving presets. This is kind of cool because you can switch from a set of settings in one mode directly to another saved system setting simply with execution of a preset's stored number.

teekay0007

Yeah, didn't mean to crack wise on ya, Beav! I'm just sayin' programming those B&K Reference preamps can really be a biotch....I'm still tryin' to find out how to do the whole balance, treble and bass things on mine. Not that I'd use them, I just want to play with them, on-the-fly, like I did on my Rotel RC1070. That was nice in that I could just twist the front panel knobs and hear the difference, actually, that a difference was made. Then, I'd want to go back to source direct.


On the upside, if you do end up baling on the built-in tuner, do know that it's definitely the weak link of the Reference preamps, IMHO.

teekay0007

Also, FWIW, they do say that all the settings for the preamp can be made from the front panel buttons and knobs. The manual is no easy read though.


Seriously, does anybody know how to do balance without having to go into the programming and have to actually save additional dBs to the R or L speaker (for balance) on setup or add and subtract dBs at different frequencies (for treble and bass)? It sure would be nicer/easier with handy knobs on the front of the preamp.



Sorry to the OP ( ), didn't mean to get this thread way off your intended track.

tonyb

The B&K REF preamps do everything in the digital domain. With the remote, it's a bit of a learning curve, without the remote.....you'll want to kick the cat in about 10 seconds.

To tell the truth, I've never used the tuner on mine, it was used for HT and 2 channel. I would suggest though, looking for a remote on Ebay, it's a bear without one.

Give Dan a shout, he has some experience with that tuner.

oldschlpolkie

teekay0007 wrote: »

Also, FWIW, they do say that all the settings for the preamp can be made from the front panel buttons and knobs. The manual is no easy read though.


Seriously, does anybody know how to do balance without having to go into the programming and have to actually save additional dBs to the R or L speaker (for balance) on setup or add and subtract dBs at different frequencies (for treble and bass)? It sure would be nicer/easier with handy knobs on the front of the preamp.



Sorry to the OP ( ), didn't mean to get this thread way off your intended track.

No problem I’m just trying to learn all I can about this preamp. It’s kinda of a learning curve with this b&k compared to what I’m used to so any additional tips/info on this preamp are more than welcome. Thx!

oldschlpolkie

Thanks guys I appreciate all the comments! I was up till mid night listening to my new preamp last night about 2hrs past my bedtime. Lol

gmcman

OSP, if your Ref 31 is the same as my Ref 50 in terms of menu setup, or at least somewhat similar, trying to get it all set up without the remote is quite difficult.

That being said, do you have the Ref 31 connected to a display via the video out? You should be able to view the menu this way and I don't really think you can do it any other way unless you have a page by page owners manual showing you the steps.

HTH

msg

Also, quick note here, on any used B&K gear, first thing I always do is a factory reset. These things can be configured as simply or involved as you like. You never really know at a glance how they're configured. There's some software available for programming these units, but it takes a little doing getting everything together and working to gain access this way. When you do though, it gives you an overview of all the settings and lets you see what's available to you and just how complex it can be.

As noted above, setup is much easier with a remote. Not impossible without, but easy to get lost in the menus. OSP, apologies, I missed that note in your original post - no remote. If you wanted to get one - and this goes for any of you guys - you can get a used URC MX-800 or MX-850 on Ebay, and I can either program it for you with the default B&K config, or you can get your own connection cables and I have a copy of B&K software I can send you.


T, do you have a remote? If so, there are options for adjusting stuff like treble, bass, sub, etc.

teekay0007 wrote: »

Also, FWIW, they do say that all the settings for the preamp can be made from the front panel buttons and knobs. The manual is no easy read though.

Seriously, does anybody know how to do balance without having to go into the programming and have to actually save additional dBs to the R or L speaker (for balance) on setup or add and subtract dBs at different frequencies (for treble and bass)? It sure would be nicer/easier with handy knobs on the front of the preamp.

Here's an example of an MX-850 setup for multiple device remote substitution, and with the last four images showing the remote control options for an AVR 507. The URC breaks this down into "pages".



Here's the cSuite software for programming the units themselves.

bikezappa

This why I sold my B&K equipment. I had to call the factory to adjust the simplest changes. They were nice on the phone however.

msg

I think B&K may have intended that this gear be professionally installed and configured for the end user.

tonyb

msg wrote: »

I think B&K may have intended that this gear be professionally installed and configured for the end user.

Don't know about that. They have an unbelievable amount of ways to tune the sound though. I think their idea was to keep everything in the digital domain, exit the knobs, for purely sound quality reasons. Tuners may have been an after thought on their part. I still like them, how can you not....when a company puts sound quality first.

I remember my manual was pretty thorough , so I'd imagine if you downloaded the manual you should be able to figure it out.

msg

I'll probably just quit audio when my B&K gear expires.

bikezappa

But you needed to consult the manual if you wanted to do any change. Grin.

oldschlpolkie

No I don’t I did all the set up from the front panel (PITA). I think I’m going to connect to the tv tonight to see what I missed setting up from the panel. Some of the setup didn’t make sense to me from the panel so hopefully the tv helps. I pretty much just set up enough to listen in stereo and still need to figure out my amp section for surround. This system is in bedroom mostly used in stereo mode for music and the movies are for the living room system. I do have a Programmable remote but it doesn’t load everything that’s on the factory remote. I think I may pick up that other one (msg) is talking about above. As far as my ref31 it’s supposed to be the same as the ref50 internally just missing balanced in/out and I think an input. I’ll find the list for upgrade and post it.

oldschlpolkie

That last comment was for (gmcman) I did something wrong when I tried to post it.

oldschlpolkie

These are the upgrades for the reference 31 that I found on the Internet. Sorry it’s an attachment/pic of the word doc I put together but the word doc is on my work computer and I was too lazy to retype it all out again here. LOL

on the in

gmcman

When I'm using it for 2ch, I leave it in "Direct" mode, with 2 speakers in stereo. Stereo doesn't mean with tone controls on these pre's, as long as it's in Direct.

I agree a reset is a good thing, as you may find out that the previous owner may have relabeled an input...like DVD IN could be labeled CD and you will think you're adjusting one and it really changing something else...that's why the display is essential to the setup.

oldschlpolkie

msg wrote: »

Also, quick note here, on any used B&K gear, first thing I always do is a factory reset. These things can be configured as simply or involved as you like. You never really know at a glance how they're configured. There's some software available for programming these units, but it takes a little doing getting everything together and working to gain access this way. When you do though, it gives you an overview of all the settings and lets you see what's available to you and just how complex it can be.

As noted above, setup is much easier with a remote. Not impossible without, but easy to get lost in the menus. OSP, apologies, I missed that note in your original post - no remote. If you wanted to get one - and this goes for any of you guys - you can get a used URC MX-800 or MX-850 on Ebay, and I can either program it for you with the default B&K config, or you can get your own connection cables and I have a copy of B&K software I can send you.


T, do you have a remote? If so, there are options for adjusting stuff like treble, bass, sub, etc.

teekay0007 wrote: »

Also, FWIW, they do say that all the settings for the preamp can be made from the front panel buttons and knobs. The manual is no easy read though.

Seriously, does anybody know how to do balance without having to go into the programming and have to actually save additional dBs to the R or L speaker (for balance) on setup or add and subtract dBs at different frequencies (for treble and bass)? It sure would be nicer/easier with handy knobs on the front of the preamp.

Here's an example of an MX-850 setup for multiple device remote substitution, and with the last four images showing the remote control options for an AVR 507. The URC breaks this down into "pages".



Here's the cSuite software for programming the units themselves.



Is the software off the shelf or custom?

msg

There are two programs: a version of URC's MX Editor, and cSuite. cSuite was distributed by B&K, along with a version of MX Editor. One is for programming the remote, and the other is for programming the different AVR/Processor/Preamp units, and then uploading/sending the configuration to the unit.

Parasound uses the same URC remote on their Halo C2. I think I may have manuals for both I can send you so you can see what's entailed.

It's kinda fun once you get the hang of it.

oldschlpolkie

That would be cool is it just a normal computer connection through the rs232? Is there any additional special hardware/software involved in the b&k communication with the computer. This has got to be easier than the b&k front panel. I haven’t been able to connect the tv. The manual says use the composite video but my TVs lowest connection is component and haven’t been able to get that connection to work with the on-screen programming. Maybe I can barrow one of my kids TVs to do the set up if they have composite.

oldschlpolkie

I connected two more amps last night and now have full surroundsound so I think either the on-screen programming or the computer (with remote) is going to be a must to set this monster up correctly. I’m very very impressed with the sound of this preamp. Watched a movie last night and have listen to a lot of music and been smiling nonstop. Also, had tweets rebuilt (by David) and new RDO198s recently so now I’m reeling from all the improvements. Can’t wipe that smile off my face.

msg

Here's the documentation from B&K (attached) so you can have a look at what's involved. Again, it takes some doing to get this going.

Off the top of my head you'll need:

• A Serial to USB adapter (req'd for both remote and component programming)
  
• Build a DB-9 adapter (converts RJ-45 to serial) to use with an ethernet cable and the same Serial to USB adapter to connect from the PC to the RS-232 port on the Ref 31. (Pinout instructions are in the BK_RJ45.pdf file)
  
• Ethernet Cable
• URC MX-700/800/850 Remote. When you buy this, look for one that comes with the programming cable, or just buy the cable separately. This cable looks like a 3.5mm jack on one side (don't quote me on the size), and serial on the other. You can find it by searching for URC programming cable on Ebay.
• A computer.

It may look a bit overwhelming, but it's not too hard once you actually get into it. I was really into programming the URC a couple of years ago and found remotes to use in each of the systems. Sometimes these remotes are a little mucked up, since people are, you know, dirty and disgusting, so I found a way to split and clean them. Just a twist to separate, and a stiff guitar pick to finish the job. Disassembly from there is simple. Totally worth the effort if you like tinkering. Kind of like working on old cars, bikes or motorcycles, restoring them to like-new, enjoying the originally intended experience.

With a URC, you can truly replace up to 20 remotes. This is not like the Logitech Harmony or other Universals. With one of these URCs, you can not only learn in nearly every single button and function on a remote, you can also custom label the button on the display. You can even do this with multi-button functions, like commands that require a "Shift+Button" operation. You can program macros too, which a lot of universal remotes can do. For instance, I have my power button set to power up and down all my components.

msg

oldschlpolkie wrote: »

That would be cool is it just a normal computer connection through the rs232? Is there any additional special hardware/software involved in the b&k communication with the computer. This has got to be easier than the b&k front panel. I haven’t been able to connect the tv. The manual says use the composite video but my TVs lowest connection is component and haven’t been able to get that connection to work with the on-screen programming. Maybe I can barrow one of my kids TVs to do the set up if they have composite.

I wouldn't say easier, not to get going, but definitely easier if you want to do a lot of configuration and to really see what's possible with the unit. The on-screen programming helps some, but it's still clunkier and more tedious than cSuite. I think @mantis would have had a bit of experience here as well, and maybe can jump in. Even if you just got a remote with the standard B&K functions programmed, it would be easier to navigate than with the front panel buttons.

Re: the onscreen/composite, I experimented early on with a mini-monitor I picked up on Amazon. It was one of those little 7" displays designed for those headrest type video systems you see sometimes. That worked out okay, and I thought I'd leave it connected all the time, but once I got cSuite figured out, it paled in comparison to the programming power you get with the software. Component is fine for quick settings or adjustments, but I haven't found the need since.

oldschlpolkie

That looks way more detailed than my current logitech 890 remote which can be a bear to program (gets stuck a lot during loading). When I programmed the logitech for the B&K it didn't load all the buttons and function is kinda limited. I'll be looking for the 800/850 tonight on fleabay. I'm guessing since the instructions specifically referenced PC that a mac won't work?? I think I may have those connectors in some of my boxes of junk.

oldschlpolkie

msg wrote: »

Here's the documentation from B&K (attached) so you can have a look at what's involved. Again, it takes some doing to get this going.

Off the top of my head you'll need:

• A Serial to USB adapter (req'd for both remote and component programming)
  
• Build a DB-9 adapter (converts RJ-45 to serial) to use with an ethernet cable and the same Serial to USB adapter to connect from the PC to the RS-232 port on the Ref 31. (Pinout instructions are in the BK_RJ45.pdf file)
  
• Ethernet Cable
• URC MX-700/800/850 Remote. When you buy this, look for one that comes with the programming cable, or just buy the cable separately. This cable looks like a 3.5mm jack on one side (don't quote me on the size), and serial on the other. You can find it by searching for URC programming cable on Ebay.
• A computer.

It may look a bit overwhelming, but it's not too hard once you actually get into it. I was really into programming the URC a couple of years ago and found remotes to use in each of the systems. Sometimes these remotes are a little mucked up, since people are, you know, dirty and disgusting, so I found a way to split and clean them. Just a twist to separate, and a stiff guitar pick to finish the job. Disassembly from there is simple. Totally worth the effort if you like tinkering. Kind of like working on old cars, bikes or motorcycles, restoring them to like-new, enjoying the originally intended experience.

With a URC, you can truly replace up to 20 remotes. This is not like the Logitech Harmony or other Universals. With one of these URCs, you can not only learn in nearly every single button and function on a remote, you can also custom label the button on the display. You can even do this with multi-button functions, like commands that require a "Shift+Button" operation. You can program macros too, which a lot of universal remotes can do. For instance, I have my power button set to power up and down all my components.

Thanks a lot for posting all this info it was really helpful and I can't wait to dive into the programming. Can you share the programs as well? I can PM my email.

msg

You're welcome. For all the enjoyment I get from the B&K gear, always a pleasure to share what I've learned with other B&K fans when the opportunity arises. PM returned. Maybe we can talk to Ken about posting the B&K resources. Not sure, possibly some legal/copyright concerns? I'll send him a message.

You can use a Mac if you use one of the methods to run Windows, like VMware Fusion, or Parallels, etc. Looks like there are more ways than that, but not sure how the others work with USB support, which you'll need for this. These applications are really lightweight - they look like they were created during the days of Windows 3.1/95

teekay0007

msg wrote: »

T, do you have a remote? If so, there are options for adjusting stuff like treble, bass, sub, etc.

teekay0007 wrote: »

Also, FWIW, they do say that all the settings for the preamp can be made from the front panel buttons and knobs. The manual is no easy read though.

Seriously, does anybody know how to do balance without having to go into the programming and have to actually save additional dBs to the R or L speaker (for balance) on setup or add and subtract dBs at different frequencies (for treble and bass)? It sure would be nicer/easier with handy knobs on the front of the preamp.

Yeah, I do have the original remote for my Ref 30. Really a sweet sounding pre. Gotta download the remote manual and get this thing dialed in right.



Regarding firmware versions: What's the difference between 2.05 and 2.11 for the Reference 30? I recently put a "new" Ref 30 into use and it has version 2.05, whereas my old 30 had 2.11. How does one update the firmware on these?

msg

I vaguely remember talking to a repair guy in a shop up in Long Island called Stargate Electronics, and I thought it had to do with modes/functions. I found this old post where Dan mentions something similar? I'm not really sure. As noted in that thread, I tend to agree with not messing with firmware unless there's really something in an update that you need or want. Man, I even handle smartphone updates the same way, and generally try to steer clear.

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/10432/software-upgrade-b-k-reference-30

As far as how-to, I'm not sure, but the guy from Stargate mentioned that a repair I was looking at came with the latest firmware. I don't know if they are programming chips there, or just replacing them. Maybe that's what B&K did, or maybe there was a .bin file they pushed over the cSuite software? I'll poke around to see if I see anything like that. I don't know that I ever saw any firmware files in the stuff I was able to download from B&K, so they may have required the units in house or through an authorized repair center?

tonyb

Shoot Dan, aka Mantis...a pm.he'll get you straight.