Polk Audio Speakers - "I get no respect!"

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  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,688
    Tony M wrote: »
    It’s a little known fact that glass is a liquid and NOT a solid. It is also a fluid.

    So your windshield is a fluid and not solid?

    What science teacher or books taught you glass is not a solid?

    Glass starts out as solid sand, it's heated to it's melting point, reshaped and cooled down to become a solid again. It is then called glass. Melted sand is just that, but if you're going to make glass from it, then the SUBSTANCE is called MOLTEN GLASS. The molten glass will ALWAYS want to return to its SOLID FORM.

    So according to you John, Aluminum is not a solid either. Or is that not in the book or teachings of little known facts I haven't been taught or read about yet?

    I'm never too old to learn something. As long as there is common sense involved.

    Ummmm....the molecular structure of silica changes after it's been heated. Especially as an polymer because the glass you are looking at this post through is not pure silicon dioxide. There are other components to the mixture that help create the structures that make opaque sand into clear glass. Glass is not just melted sand. Sand is silica in structured crystalline form. Glass is silica, well silicon dioxide in a specific type of non-crystalline form.

    Glass is also not a liquid but it's not a regular solid. It is an amorphous solid which is very much a solid but it's molecular bonds (remember, I said they change?) are more similar to the types of structured bonds found in liquids. In other words, it's a non-crystalline solid. That means that while the crystals do form, they form in a way that is not structured so they don't take the long form shape of a crystal that you would typically think of with the long planes of facets. Amorphous is a word derived from the Greek word for shapeless or without shape. As in "amorphous blob".

    So glass is a crystalline solid that forms like a liquid through specific annealing processes that form the structures and make the glass stable in it's amorphous form.

    The idea that glass is a liquid comes from very old panes of glass (several hundred years old) that have a measurably wider shape to the pane at the bottom of the pane than at the top. This caused less observant folks to believe that the glass was "running" down because of gravity. While that may be true, it's not because of age. The fat bottom of the glass pane occurred during the cooling process and is due to how the pane was handled during cooling. This has been studied and verified through examining, measuring and testing the chemical composition and structure of the glass and finding it to be a stable solid that had been stable for as long as the pane of glass was in existence.

    Modern glass is far less susceptible to such variations because of how refined the annealing processes are. The annealing process is critical because it relieves the stresses of the glass that forms as it cools and makes it more durable and less prone to shattering from minor impacts to temperature changes. In other words, we're way better at making glass now than we ever could have hoped to be a thousand years ago.




    Back to audio, who cares what anyone thinks about your speakers? Your stereo is for you, not the shop owner/sales guy. It doesn't matter what you have. If you are coming in to buy a component, nothing in that store is going to match what you have at home. Even if it's "close" as per the shop guy's systems and opinions. Biggest reason is because it's not your listening environment which has as much to do with it as the components used. If someone asks you what other stuff you are using, unless there is a possible connectivity issue, it doesn't matter to anyone but you. Just don't tell them. They aren't the ones making the decision. It's your decision, your money. They only thing they have to do is to inform you of your available choices.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 11,513
    F1nut wrote: »
    cfrizz wrote: »
    In the meantime these hifalutin shops are closing year after year since very few can afford their prices in an ever changing job market.

    Just a little bit of attitude there.....tsk tsk

    Anyway that is not the reason. Brick and mortar stores of all types including the lowfalutin shops have and will continue to shut their doors because of one thing and one thing only, the Internet. That is not a good thing, IMO.

    Jumping back to audio, look at how many people now complain that they can't audition hifi gear these days.

    ^^^^ This it is almost impossible to go anywhere and audition gear. Even at worst buy you are very limited and it is all on noisy metal shelves and in no way orientated to get the best out of the item.
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,534
    edited March 15
    Nightfall wrote: »
    That way will work too.
    flu·id
    ˈflo͞oid/
    noun
    noun: fluid; plural noun: fluids

    1.
    a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid.
    air
    er/
    noun
    noun: air

    1.
    the invisible gaseous substance surrounding the earth, a mixture mainly of oxygen and nitrogen.
    gas·e·ous
    ˈɡasēəs,ˈɡaSHəs/
    adjective
    adjective: gaseous

    relating to or having the characteristics of a gas.

    Gas and air have no SUBSTANCE therefore can't be a fluid. Period.

    What does the GAS surrounding the earth have to do with liquids?

    Are you going to argue that Dark Matter is a fluid and liquid too? Scientists with the biggest brains haven't called space a fluid. I don't know of ONE case where air is called a fluid.

    Proove to me what other speaker manufacturer has called the air in their speaker cabinets is a fluid and I'll give the term a little more serious thought.

    Other than that, I think the labeling term was a Polk mistake and rubbed potential buyers, like myself, to walk away.

    Bose's transmission line sales add approach looked more truthful to me but I couldn't afford Bose at all. But Millions did go the Bose route didn't they. SAD.
    Bose should've, could've used "We use fluid expansion channels to bring you the biggest sound from the smallest size" in their ads. LOL.
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • The_PolksterThe_Polkster Posts: 221
    'Fluid' means it flows. Gas and liquids are both fluid.
    Polk SDA SRS
    Yamaha M-65 (2x, bi-amped)
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    Oppo UDP-203
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  • rooftop59rooftop59 Posts: 4,764
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/03/14/toys-r-us-to-close-all-800-of-its-u-s-stores/?utm_term=.993d566bdb67

    where will I go the day before christmas when I still haven't found anything for one of my children?!? Walmart?!? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

    damn you internet!
    HT Rig:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Peachtree Audio Nova Integrated; Bryson BPD-1; Mains: Dynaudio Emit 10 + MartinLogan Dynamo (original) sub; Center - Polk cs400i; Heights, Center Surround - Klipsch KHC - 6 In-Ceiling; Surrounds - Monoprice in-ceiling; Sub - SVS PB10-ISD; LG UP870 4K BDP

    Master Bedroom
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,591
    edited March 15
    tonyb wrote: »
    ...
    Those same people that complain they can't audition HIFI gear, are the same tire kickers that used to audition in a brick and mortar and then turn around and shop the internet to buy it.
    ...

    Sad but true.
    Many folks these days have confused and/or conflated price and value.
    The lowest price transaction sometimes (often) doesn't represent the highest value transaction.

    :|

    Just my opinions, though hardly humble ones.

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,591
    edited March 15
    oh, speaking of fluids.
    I am sure many if not all of the folks contributing to this thread are familiar with the "Pitch Drop Experiment", or as we science guys (science people!) like to call it, "the world's longest-running lab experiment".

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25441-longest-experiment-sees-pitch-drop-after-84-year-wait/
    live feed here: don't miss drop number ten when it comes.
    http://www.thetenthwatch.com/

    ...or you can relive the thrill of Drop Number Nine via time lapse:



    Someone above wrote "Gas and air have no SUBSTANCE therefore can't be a fluid. Period."?

    words fail me.

    :(
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,606
    My Polk speakers have gotten respect from just about anybody that has heard them.
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,534
    'Fluid' means it flows. Gas and liquids are both fluid.

    This must mean AIR flows. ;)

    Therefore; The sub bass radiator in Polks are AIR coupled. :D Which they are. ;)

    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,688
    Just because you don't understand the laws of fluid dynamics doesn't mean that engineers at Polk Audio with Ph. D's in the subject are wrong or even inaccurate in their description of a sound reproduction system structure. It just means you are ignorant of an advanced topic that is apparently beyond your comprehension.
    In physics and engineering, fluid dynamics is a subdiscipline of fluid mechanics that describes the flow of fluids (liquids and gases).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

    "Air" flows because it is a gas made up of multiple gases which, by the laws of fluid dynamics, is a fluid. Therefore, in the world of fluid mechanics, a passive radiator that is enacted upon by the physical movement of the gases inside the chamber is fluid coupled to the structure that is causing the gas to be pressurized to the point that it moves the passive radiator. That is called fluid coupling. This fluid coupling would not exist if the structure was not enclosed by the speaker enclosure and sealed from the outside atmosphere. Many things in your life use that concept to do stuff including your own ear drums.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,606
    Who wants a Lifesaver? I don't care for the mint ones. Take those.

    4lrcwhfomg29.jpg
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 18,577
    Viking64 wrote: »
    Who wants a Lifesaver? I don't care for the mint ones. Take those.

    4lrcwhfomg29.jpg

    One of my very earliest memories is running into my grandfather’s arms so I could swipe the Lifesavers from his shirt pocket. I miss the innocence of youth...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Stradivari v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 two channel preamplifier Signed by Poppa himself, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 11,513
    Does “fluid dynamics” have anything to do with eating bad Chinese food?

    Ummm yes that and Mexican, the fluidity runnth over
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,591
    edited March 15
    Viking64 wrote: »
    Who wants a Lifesaver? I don't care for the mint ones. Take those.

    4lrcwhfomg29.jpg

    One of my very earliest memories is running into my grandfather’s arms so I could swipe the Lifesavers from his shirt pocket. I miss the innocence of youth...

    heh, from about six months of age (edit: maybe eight months? nine? at any rate, a while ago) , our granddaughter's delighted in doing that with the tube of Chapstick that is nearly always in my shirt pocket. She's still doing it, too, at 2-1/2 :)
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,534
    edited March 15
    Yes, OK.
    So according to PHD'd brains, gases fluidly flow along with fluids in those circumstances. :D: s :#

    I know the term "Fluid Dynamics". I don't have a Doctors Degree in the field but I'm pretty sure liquids would've comprised 99.99 of it. So why pick .01% of a field of science to put in a sales ad? Most couldn't care less , or even understand scientific jargon then or even today. They don't care. But I did and still do. I have yet, like I pointed out, to have read another Co. using that stupid term for a speaker selling point. I've asked for another case and I'll wait until I die for a comparrison. So have at it. Show me a scientific paper pointing out AIR is a liquid transfer medium.

    I understand Hydraulic fluid dynamics more than most humans since my life and other's lives depended on my knowledge of it for over 15 years.

    So maybe that's why I don't like the air is a liquid comparison. If I lost liquid or fluid in a line at some given times, I wouldn't be here typing right now.

    I understand Air brake systems and air pressure for large vehicles and all kinds of propulsion systems too. Engineers call compressed AIR an AIR HYDRAULIC system for a reason. Not a fluid connected system. I'm trying my best to put street smarts and some book smarts into explaining this " comical use of fluid dynamics that Polk used in an ad campain" Polk's PR system is a static to compression air hydraulic process. No fluids were used in this process mentallity.

    Engineers don't useually, if ever, omit the main component's name to describe the action it's describing.

    Mixing the two applications and saying one is the other is a joke to me. It's not a funny joke either.
    Post edited by Tony M on
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,971
    SpiffyFancyAltiplanochinchillamouse-max-1mb.gif
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,534
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,170
    I think you boys are reading too deep into semantics here. Must everything be an argument ?

    The term "fluid", when mentioned in audiophile terms, relates to the flow of the sound, not whether xyz is a gas, liquid, or some strange alien compound. How the heck did we even get there from discussing Polk speakers ?

    ....and Russ has even chimed in yet. :)
    HT SYSTEM-2 channel
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    Joule la-100 pre
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    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
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    Kitchen

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  • monepolkmonepolk Posts: 881
    Tony M wrote: »
    Engineers don't useually, if ever, omit the main component's name to describe the action it's describing.

    Mixing the two applications and saying one is the other is a joke to me. It's not a funny joke either.
    Consumer meet Marketing.
  • agfrostagfrost Posts: 2,180
    edited March 15
    Just because one can't see it, doesn't mean a gas doesn't flow. Observe carbon dioxide flowing downhill (so fluidy!):



    ...and please don't let the low density of a gas convince you that it 'has no substance'! Quick, what has more mass: an empty balloon, or that same balloon filled with helium?
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Marantz DV-9500 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,591
    edited March 15
    tonyb wrote: »
    I think you boys are reading too deep into semantics here. Must everything be an argument ?
    You wanna fight about that?

    :|
    The term "fluid", when mentioned in audiophile terms, relates to the flow of the sound, not whether xyz is a gas, liquid, or some strange alien compound. How the heck did we even get there from discussing Polk speakers ?

    ....and Russ has even chimed in yet. :)

    Russ knows his fluids.

    Speaking of fluid dynamics...

    dg3ivmb4zx2g.png
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,534
    monepolk wrote: »
    Tony M wrote: »
    Engineers don't useually, if ever, omit the main component's name to describe the action it's describing.

    Mixing the two applications and saying one is the other is a joke to me. It's not a funny joke either.
    Consumer meet Marketing.

    I've been on to marketing since I was a kid.

    Here's the best thing ever. Buy it.

    Here's the new and improved best thing ever. Buy it.

    LOL.

    There's NO argument here. Just a discussion . My blood pressure didn't even rise a point. :)

    I've tried my best to point out a theory as to why Polk didn't get some respect from people like myself due to that PR's stated operational influances.

    I figured I'd hear some opposing opinions and I was right. It happened before but not on the topic of respect for Polk being challenged throughout its history.

    It seems from the LSiM reviews above, Polk has hit a home run again. ;) :p B)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,688
    edited March 15
    Tony M wrote: »
    Yes, OK.
    I didn't read anything you wrote nor did I even bother to actually look at the rather informative link you provided and I readily admit I am uneducated on the topic. Despite all that, I disagree with your informative, factual post, reject your reality and substitute my own because I refuse to even attempt to wrap my brain around the concept that "fluid" is a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure, like a gas or a liquid and not specifically a liquid. I mean, I know I could look this stuff up myself and get educated but gall durn it, you're wrong 'cause I'm losing face here on the Innernet despite your copious amounts of factual evidence and I will not stand for it!

    Sorry, I don't have the time go into the topics of advanced physics of engineering here on Club Polk that took two years of course work for someone with a Ph. D. to teach to me.

    To address your posting:

    - There is no "scientific document" that will show that "air" is a "liquid transfer medium" because, for one thing, there's no such thing as a "liquid transfer medium" in physics (maybe if you're applying decals or vinyl transfers and then it's just soapy water). For another, your "scientific document" is pretty much every physics textbook in existence. Also, demanding this "proof" does not discredit my argument. But since you are "demanding" a document that shows you this, here:

    https://vscht.cz/uchi/ped/hydroteplo/materialy/introduction.fluid.mech.pdf

    That is a 322 page PDF of a textbook on an Introduction to Fluid Mechanics. Read it and you will find your "scientific document" (it's even accredited!) proving that "air is a liquid transfer medium" Also, on a side note, fluid mechanics is only around 50% about liquids. The rest is gases and some solids (gets fancy when you get to states of plasma), believe it or not.

    - There is no such thing as "hydraulic fluid dynamics". Hydraulic fluid is a petroleum based substance that is governed by the laws of fluid mechanics and fluid dynamics but it's not unique and there is no specific field of study revolving around hydraulic fluid and it's dynamics.

    - "Air hydraulic systems" are called air hydraulic systems because they are hybrid systems that use air pressure to move the pumping mechanisms that move the hydraulic fluid through the system instead of physical action of a foot or hand moving a pumping lever. The compressed air obeys the same laws of fluid mechanics as the hydraulic fluid it's acting on. The system wouldn't work if air wasn't a fluid in the contained system.



    Believe me, I fully grasp all the concepts here and calling the passive radiator in the SDAs a "fluid coupled subwoofer" is actually a more accurate description of the device and it's function than calling it a "passive radiator". Most other speaker companies are not using the term because it requires more than a passing understanding of air brakes to know why it's accurate so they stick with what's easy to explain. Otherwise they'd never sell speakers to anyone but engineers and physicists.
    Post edited by KennethSwauger on
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,688
    edited March 15
    tonyb wrote: »
    I think you boys are reading too deep into semantics here. Must everything be an argument ?

    The term "fluid", when mentioned in audiophile terms, relates to the flow of the sound, not whether xyz is a gas, liquid, or some strange alien compound. How the heck did we even get there from discussing Polk speakers ?

    ....and Russ has even chimed in yet. :)

    il_340x270.1453652987_sfn8.jpg

    And no, you bet your sweet patootie that "fluid" is in reference to the movement of a gas in a captured system like a sealed speaker enclosure.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • mikeyb128mikeyb128 Posts: 2,752
    yajw41c09wr7.gif
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 7,545
    Thanks for the chuckle, Mike. :smile:
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
  • dromundsdromunds Posts: 7,331
    WL Dock is correct, read the technical brief on the LSiM's.
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