Exploring LP’s

Alan_r

I’ve been engrossed in Turntable research for the last week or so and I have come up with relevant information from a different point of view.

I’ve noticed within the critical listening circles that the only measure that gets mentioned as much as sound quality is price. Everywhere I go I read, it sounds good for the price, or it sounds better than XYZ which cost twice the price, etc etc. So obviously, and In my opinion correctly, we generally will judge something as “better” if it costs more. Think Chevrolet Impala vs Cadillac XTS. One garners more respect due to implied value, yet they’re almost mechanically identical.

So based on that, when we look at entry level turntables, Pro-Ject and a few others start their lineup in the mid $200 range. Though many would say they don’t start getting good until you hit the mid $400 price point. So let’s say that in 2018, the perceived value point for a good sounding turntable is somewhere between $200-$400.

Now let’s take a table that I’m considering, a Technics SL-230. In 1978 the 230 cost around $150. Well below what we consider today to be the quality price point. But inflation puts that $150 at an equivalent of $595.47 (dollartimes.com) which is right where our good enough to keep prices tables are today. So in my mind that places the SL-230 in the common audiophile range of components for 1978 based only on my price hypothesis. Simply translated, the SL-230 properly functioning should be a perfectly fine table. Throw in a modern and precision cartridge, decent cables and a solid phono section and a budget but solid sounding setup might be possible.

Thoughts on my logic here?

Alan_r

Ok, got something else to throw into the mix:

Idler Drive

I’ve come across some beautiful Dual 1219’s that are surrounded with really nice looking wood. Slight research presented me with a term I’ve never heard of. Apparently these sound different than direct or belt drive? From what I’ve read, emphasis on the lower end of the sound spectrum. Which sounds like exactly what will work well with my “bright” sounding RTiA3’s in my experiment room.

Thoughts?

mhardy6647

FWIW -- I am not crazy about the "classic", fully automatic DUALs. Way too complicated, from my perspective, for what they do. Way too complicated.

Many folks do like them -- I am not one of them.

There are a couple of DUALs here, but I don't have the gumption to re-hab them. Too much work.

DUAL did also make some belt and direct drive record players through the years, including a few really nice ones (full disclosure). The CS5000 fairly leaps to mind. Not inexpenive, I reckon, on the used market.


A generalization* but most idler drive turntables are substandard. Most, not all.
There are some fine ones -- but they are not inexpensive. I wouldn't consider them beginner tts, FWIW.
Lenco, the Garrard 301 and 401, and the Thorens TD-124 (which is actually a unique hybrid belt/idler design) are fine, world class turntables -- but expensive and (at least in the case of the Garrard and Thorens) finicky. There are some Lenco owners here who can weigh in on what it's like to use one regularly. I have no data myself


Again, just opinions -- but you're asking.

Choice of cartridge is what you're going to want to focus on. That does have some bearing (heh, see what I did there) on the choice of tt, because arm mass and cartridge compliance need to be complementary. This is a non-issue for P-mount decks, of course -- P-mount is the Garanimals of the turntable world

____________________
* Remember: all generalizations are false, including this one

mhardy6647

Couple of comments about the SL-230.

These were mass-production items from a huge company with decades of relevant experience, with all of the economies of scale (and advantages of high-quality, well implemented mass production and world-class QC) that come with that territory. The $400 tts of today, by and large, don't have any of those things going for them -- indeed many of the low-cost tts of today carry 'baggage' related to QC issues (although, in fairness, most of the companies do a pretty good job of supporting their customers).

Don't get the idea that there weren't precision cartridges that aren't modern. Heck, two fine and popular cartridge families -- Denon's DL-103 and Ortofon's outstanding and expensive SPU series have been in production since (at least) the early 1960s -- and are still in demand.

Disclosure: my daily driver uses a DL-103.

Finally, yes you can change the cables on an SL-230, but they're not removable so you'll need to open 'er up and sling some solder. Choose cables wisely - low capacitance is important for turntables (as is good shielding).

EDIT: With chagrin, I was misremembering the SL-230. I thought it was the belt-drive, semi-automatic model... but in fact that was the SL-220. The SL-230 was the fully-automatic, single-disk belt-drive morph

http://www.vintagetechnics.audio/showitem.php?id=YToyOntpOjA7czo2OiJzbC0yMzAiO2k6MTtzOjEzOiJiZWx0X2RyaXZlX3R0Ijt9



Didn't some folks recommend looking at Regas and being done with it?

nooshinjohn

^^^nope... I tried to talk him out of it, but he doesn’t listen.

Alan_r

mhardy6647 wrote: »

FWIW -- I am not crazy about the "classic", fully automatic DUALs. Way too complicated, from my perspective, for what they do. Way too complicated.

Many folks do like them -- I am not one of them.

There are a couple of DUALs here, but I don't have the gumption to re-hab them. Too much work.

DUAL did also make some belt and direct drive record players through the years, including a few really nice ones (full disclosure). The CS5000 fairly leaps to mind. Not inexpenive, I reckon, on the used market.


A generalization* but most idler drive turntables are substandard. Most, not all.
There are some fine ones -- but they are not inexpensive. I wouldn't consider them beginner tts, FWIW.
Lenco, the Garrard 301 and 401, and the Thorens TD-124 (which is actually a unique hybrid belt/idler design) are fine, world class turntables -- but expensive and (at least in the case of the Garrard and Thorens) finicky. There are some Lenco owners here who can weigh in on what it's like to use one regularly. I have no data myself


Again, just opinions -- but you're asking.

Choice of cartridge is what you're going to want to focus on. That does have some bearing (heh, see what I did there) on the choice of tt, because arm mass and cartridge compliance need to be complementary. This is a non-issue for P-mount decks, of course -- P-mount is the Garanimals of the turntable world

____________________
* Remember: all generalizations are false, including this one

Thank you. Appreciate the perspective.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

^^^nope... I tried to talk him out of it, but he doesn’t listen.

I am eyeballing a P1.

Alan_r

I can now see why vinyl is a hobby/obsession. So much to tweak and play with!

KAB Electro Acoustics makes some very nice looking cable sets designed for the rewiring of turntables, terminated on one end, raw on the other. I do my own work rebuilding amps so no worries there at all. Then I found out I can “upgrade” the tonearm wiring as well....see, this is how it starts! Lol

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/wirewin.htm

Anyway, the cartridge/stylus area is my next focus. Honestly three hours ago I didn’t even know they weren’t one in the same. Found a Ortofon Concorde 20 that I’m researching now.

Again, thank guys for the insight and opinions. Genuinely appreciated. I stepped into this knowing zero. So everything I’m learning now will be the foundation I carry on with until the music stops.

Msabot1

Alan_r wrote: »

Ok, got something else to throw into the mix:

Idler Drive

I’ve come across some beautiful Dual 1219’s that are surrounded with really nice looking wood. Slight research presented me with a term I’ve never heard of. Apparently these sound different than direct or belt drive? From what I’ve read, emphasis on the lower end of the sound spectrum. Which sounds like exactly what will work well with my “bright” sounding RTiA3’s in my experiment room.

Thoughts?

If you are thinking Dual/United Audio..the only one worth having is the 1229.. Bought mine in 73.. And it sure has stood the test of time while maintaining it only slightly..although not my primary table,it still gets play from time to time..tells you something about its quality..rugged piece of gear...

Alan_r

This is actually harder than I thought it would be. There are a lot of choices. I just let a Fisher model go, pretty solid price because it was misspelled so it probably didn’t come up in any searches. Most are selling for $250+ and this one went for $46. But I just didn’t feel right about it. Can’t explain why but most used gear I buy I just get a “this is right” feeling. Not on this one. I’ve actually saved quite a few Pioneer PL series tables, 400’s, 41’s and 12dII’s. We’ll see how they turn out. I am keeping an eye out for any suggested tables from this thread though. Right now I’m watching:

Technics SL-Q300
Technics SL-QD33
Technics SL-230
Rega P1
Pioneer PL-400
Pioneer PL-41
Pioneer PL-12dii
A couple Dual 1219’s
MCS 6730 (made by Technics)
Yamaha TT-400U
JVC AL-A158
Sony PS-150

Alan_r

Msabot1 wrote: »

Alan_r wrote: »

Ok, got something else to throw into the mix:

Idler Drive

I’ve come across some beautiful Dual 1219’s that are surrounded with really nice looking wood. Slight research presented me with a term I’ve never heard of. Apparently these sound different than direct or belt drive? From what I’ve read, emphasis on the lower end of the sound spectrum. Which sounds like exactly what will work well with my “bright” sounding RTiA3’s in my experiment room.

Thoughts?

If you are thinking Dual/United Audio..the only one worth having is the 1229.. Bought mine in 73.. And it sure has stood the test of time while maintaining it only slightly..although not my primary table,it still gets play from time to time..tells you something about its quality..rugged piece of gear...

Apparently the 1219 is identical only not as automated.

mhardy6647

Automation level of the 1219 & 1229 is identical -- both are configured as automatic tts/record changers (for better or for worse). The 1229 offers some compensation for VTA as a changer vs. a single-play tt.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1219.shtml
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1229.shtml

LRE 1973 Dual tts (1) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

I don't have a 1219 blurb handy at the moment.

Alan_r

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Automation level of the 1219 & 1229 is identical -- both are configured as automatic tts/record changers (for better or for worse). The 1229 offers some compensation for VTA as a changer vs. a single-play tt.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1219.shtml
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1229.shtml

LRE 1973 Dual tts (1) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

I don't have a 1219 blurb handy at the moment.

Nice find. Gotcha. I was only going off of info found on various websites. Can’t argue with original literature though! Lol. On that note, having looked into 1229 restorations, wow they look like a clock underneath! Quite complex for its time. Perhaps this is not a good table for a first timer. I would like to hear one though. Once I’m setup I may pick one up to try out.

tonyp063

Confession. Unlike Mark, I'm a fan of Duals. Have been since the '70s.

They are the mechanical engineering equivalent of the German propensity for creating excessively long compound words though.

That said, there is a *wealth* of knowledge & assistance for you over in the Dual sub-forum at Vinylengine.
And if it becomes too much, Bill at FixMyDual is your go-to.

MrBuhl

The 1229 also has a heavier platter FWIW. I had Bill @ FixMyDual do a complete overhaul on mine, surprisingly inexpensive, fast and efficient, though you will be considerably outside your $100 budget.

Alan_r

Without going to deep, what makes the Idler style tables sound different? Supposedly reinforcing the lower end.

At this point, I've taken an interest in the PL Pioneer line as well as the various Technics of course. They all, for the most part, seem well supported. I also really like the look of the "classic" wooden bases many seem to be mounted in. I have a particular fondness for complex looking machinery mounted in wood. Can't explain it further, just a taste I suppose.

Something else I've been pondering, KAB (link provided earlier), seems to do Technics restorations and mods. They apparently keep a small inventory of Technics, not 1200's, but models like the SL-DD22, SL-BD35 ect. that they've serviced and tuned up for sale. Prices seem pretty reasonable for a guaranteed and supported table. With shipping they end up around the $200 -20/+20 mark. So they're on the table at the moment as well unless I come up with something else.

Thank you for the Vinyl Engine suggestion, very valuable resource for sure.

Anyway, still searching.

Alan_r

Update on this search. A mint Technics SL-1700MKII was found about fifty miles north of me. He said the auto return isn't working properly but that's apparently common and can be fixed. From what it looks like in various reviews, it should be an excellent starter table. I'm going to pick it up in a few days when I drive up there so in between then and now I've got to figure out what carts fit, mods needed and where to buy replacement parts.

I think there's an Audio Tech cartridge on it but the guy has no idea as it was his dad's. A friend recommended that I pick up a DynaVector 20X2L for it. A quick search showed this to be a thousand dollar cartridge.

Is an SL-1700MKII a table that can use the capabilities of that cartridge?

Alan_r

Whoops SL-1400MKII not a 1700. He had it listed wrong.

mhardy6647

Should be fine.

Those ol' Technics tts were/are so much better than I thought they were back when they were new.

I guess they must have improved with age

As to the Dynavector -- whether it's a good match or not depends first and foremost (IMO) on the mass of the arm and the compliance of the cartridge. My guess is the pair would be a good match -- but I don't know fo' sho' and I am, at the moment, too lazy too look it up (sorry)!

Is it a waste to put a cartridge like that on the table in question? I don't think so, a priori. I am assuming that the arm & drivetrain of the Technics are performing "as new" (in other words, no excess play or friction in the arm bearings; drive system clean, properly lubricated & properly functioning).

Just an opinion, tho'.

Alan_r

Admittedly I was a little disappointed when I found it to be a 1400MKII. Apparently the 1700MKII was really good. I basically stole it so even though he offered a refund I told him to send it anywAy. I had spent hours reading about the 1700MKII. I hope I don't regret this.

Alan_r

I don't know why but I've been incredibly hesitant on the purchase of a used turntable. I'm usually very confident when searching for something.

mhardy6647

Alan_r wrote: »

I don't know why but I've been incredibly hesitant on the purchase of a used turntable. I'm usually very confident when searching for something.

For all of the disk scratchers (intentional or otherwise) out there, many of the decent turntables were owned by vinylista at least as OCD as those of today



(but, yeah, rekkid playas and tape decks do have the extra added issue of mechanical wear and tear to worry about)

As an aside -- I had a chance to buy an SL-D5 (belt drive, fully auto) in very good condition with an aftermarket (but very nice looking) dust cover for 75 smackers last Sunday at the ahem "vintage electronics show and sale" in Nashua... I shoulda (bought it, that is).

Tony M

Alan_r wrote: »

Admittedly I was a little disappointed when I found it to be a 1400MKII. Apparently the 1700MKII was really good. I basically stole it so even though he offered a refund I told him to send it anywAy. I had spent hours reading about the 1700MKII. I hope I don't regret this.

I LOVE mine. My auto return doesn't work either. I think my hydraulic riser doesn't work either. But I love it! You'll love the digital speed readout that the 1700 doesn't have.

When you lift this TT up, you'll smile from ear to ear and be thankful it's a 1400MK2 instead of the 1700. It's SOLID.

Anybody who's ever seen mine, LOVES the LOOK of it. Even though it doesn't have the knobs on the side of the platter. Who needs knobs when you have a digital readout!

When you read about the SL1400MK2 and some of us owners view of it, I think you'll be happy. CONGRATS! I have a Denon DL160 cartridge on mine I think. I had a Shure M97xe and thought it was good. Man was I wrong! That Denon made the Shure sound like it was a gramophone needle sound. Maybe a little exaggerated but there was a great improvement.

Alan_r

Tony M wrote: »

Alan_r wrote: »

Admittedly I was a little disappointed when I found it to be a 1400MKII. Apparently the 1700MKII was really good. I basically stole it so even though he offered a refund I told him to send it anywAy. I had spent hours reading about the 1700MKII. I hope I don't regret this.

I LOVE mine. My auto return doesn't work either. I think my hydraulic riser doesn't work either. But I love it! You'll love the digital speed readout that the 1700 doesn't have.

When you lift this TT up, you'll smile from ear to ear and be thankful it's a 1400MK2 instead of the 1700. It's SOLID.

Anybody who's ever seen mine, LOVES the LOOK of it. Even though it doesn't have the knobs on the side of the platter. Who needs knobs when you have a digital readout!

When you read about the SL1400MK2 and some of us owners view of it, I think you'll be happy. CONGRATS! I have a Denon DL160 cartridge on mine I think. I had a Shure M97xe and thought it was good. Man was I wrong! That Denon made the Shure sound like it was a gramophone needle sound. Maybe a little exaggerated but there was a great improvement.

I needed that. Thank you. I apparently happened upon the side of reviews that basically stated “it’s ok” while the reviews I had read about the 1700mkii were overwhelmingly positive.

Something I’ve noticed regarding turntables, more than any other piece of equipment, is that many people offer opinions based on experience with similar tables. Yet it seems that with TT’s, you really can’t do that as some have “the magic” while others within the same family, do not.

I did find a company that makes the replacement part with either the steel or brass bushing for $23.00. So that’s good to know. I like the idea of semi auto, especially if I put a decent cart on it. I can not see myself hobbling as fast as I can to the record room as the expensive needle walks it’s way across the label.

Tony M

I don't think the needle will get to the label if you have 1-1/2 to 2 grams pushing down on it. My needles have never skipped a groove at the end of a record.

I read years ago, a professional TT mechanic wrote "Do not attempt this repair yourself unless you have plenty of experience". So I haven't even looked under mine. And I have some mechanical mental abilities too.

Maybe we'll go down the repair road together. You lead! For 23.00+, it's cheap enough to have the part on the table in front of me, isn't it?

Alan_r

Tony M wrote: »

I don't think the needle will get to the label if you have 1-1/2 to 2 grams pushing down on it. My needles have never skipped a groove at the end of a record.

I read years ago, a professional TT mechanic wrote "Do not attempt this repair yourself unless you have plenty of experience". So I haven't even looked under mine. And I have some mechanical mental abilities too.

Maybe we'll go down the repair road together. You lead! For 23.00+, it's cheap enough to have the part on the table in front of me, isn't it?

Yeah I was surprised at how cheap it was. I found the company, Shapeway, because they 3D make any blueprints you send them. I dabble in RC race cars and Shapeway makes all kinds of replacement parts. So I figured I’d just see if they work with audio equipment. Sure enough, all kinds of audio repair parts.

Anyway, I glanced at the how to video and it looks pretty simple to do.

Apparently many of the “mods” done to improve the 1200 series will work on the 1400 as well. I usually fix/repair/mod my own gear/cars/boats exc so I don’t see this being any different. I’m currently modding a tube headphone amp and once that’s done I’ve got to recap and replace the relays on a 2700 THX amp so I’ve got a few weeks to research and collect parts for the new 1400. It’s apparently in excellent condition sans the auto return so I should be able to get an idea of how well this thing sounds in a short amount of time. Basic wiring and isolation mods may start as well.

Tony M

Fantastic. Shapeway, huh? cool.
I'd like to repair mine if you think it's not heart surgery. I'll look on the web for some guidance and tutorials. I'll be looking for updates from you in the future for sure.

Do you have "Dire Straights, Brothers in Arms" record?

"Ride Across the Water."

That song will give a GREAT audition to the steadiness of this TT's motor or any TT for that mater. It will reveal differences in cartridges too.

I like using a record clamp also. My SRS2's agree.

Alan_r

Tony M wrote: »

Fantastic. Shapeway, huh? cool.
I'd like to repair mine if you think it's not heart surgery. I'll look on the web for some guidance and tutorials. I'll be looking for updates from you in the future for sure.

Do you have "Dire Straights, Brothers in Arms" record?

"Ride Across the Water."

That song will give a GREAT audition to the steadiness of this TT's motor or any TT for that mater. It will reveal differences in cartridges too.

I like using a record clamp also. My SRS2's agree.

Sure I’ll post some observations as I go in for “surgery” lol. I’ve been randomly buying LP’s that catch my eye ever since I decided to look for a table. I have a stack of records and nothing to play them on.

Repairing gear that I buy cheaply has been an interesting hobby of mine as of late. I’m currently in the process of selling an entire house full of stuff; with an eye on saving money to kick off my long planned sailing cruise. Ultimately I’ll be down to a chair and my hi-fi gear. Nothing passes time better while selling and saving than fixing gear and enjoying music. This is really the only stuff that will stay in storage until I get back. Priorities ya know.

Which brings me to an interesting problem. Once exposed to good sound it’s impossible to go back to mediocre setups. I can barely stand to listen to my gym system because the image is off due to positioning of the equipment. This made me think of how to create something half way decent in my boat, which I’ll be living in for years. I know how hi-fi gear can effect the sound, but I don’t know how this would apply to auto/marine equipment. Should provide some entertainment figuring out how to set something up. I suppose a basic transport connected to a high quality car amplifier, then build some decent bookshelf speakers using quality drivers. We’ll see. Different thread for sure.

Tony M

Putting the cart before the horse scenario. I'm like that too sometimes.

But Sailing...?...I can't take a small off shore gambling boat cruise without 6-meclizine tabs on hand. I've wondered how people like yourself can take all that rocking 24 hrs. a day. I'm sure there are some smooth sailing days and anchoring days but how many could there be...?

Sailing is a whole different way of life FOR SURE!

mhardy6647

Alan_r wrote: »

Which brings me to an interesting problem. Once exposed to good sound it’s impossible to go back to mediocre setups...

FWIW, that's not a "problem" that I have. Indeed, I've always been fascinated by bang for the buck and can listen through many audible infirmities if the bones are right and the presentation is an honest one.

I'm absolutely not knocking folks who feel differently; just offering my own personal perspective as a counterpoint.

Tony M

I love how this guy starts off his record cleaning technique with a "CHEERS". I like his paint edger brush scrubber a lot!
https://youtu.be/m_jrJZuf5oA