Exploring LP’s

in Electronics
I’ve been on this exploration of source material lately and it dawned on me that my quest wouldn’t be complete without trying a turntable.
I currently own zero 0 records. So obviously I don’t want to jump in and spend a bunch of money. Even the low level ProJect tables are out of what I’m willing to spend. So this question is aimed more forwards the vintage guys.
Can someone provide a couple brand/models of turntables that would be found cheaply on the bay or classifieds that wouldn’t embarrass the playing of a few records? If I even remotely like what I hear I will upgrade and spend more for something nice. But if I don’t fall in love I’d like to be able to walk away easily. The bay is chock full of turntables under $100 but I know nothing about them other than from the memory of a suitcase record player I had when Carter was in office. From what my MusicDirect catalog is showing me is easy to invest a used S550 into a turntable so that’s not where I’d want to start.
So what’s out there from the 70’s and beyond? Any cheap ones out there that put on a respectable performance?
I currently own zero 0 records. So obviously I don’t want to jump in and spend a bunch of money. Even the low level ProJect tables are out of what I’m willing to spend. So this question is aimed more forwards the vintage guys.
Can someone provide a couple brand/models of turntables that would be found cheaply on the bay or classifieds that wouldn’t embarrass the playing of a few records? If I even remotely like what I hear I will upgrade and spend more for something nice. But if I don’t fall in love I’d like to be able to walk away easily. The bay is chock full of turntables under $100 but I know nothing about them other than from the memory of a suitcase record player I had when Carter was in office. From what my MusicDirect catalog is showing me is easy to invest a used S550 into a turntable so that’s not where I’d want to start.
So what’s out there from the 70’s and beyond? Any cheap ones out there that put on a respectable performance?
Comments
I wouldn't discount an Audio Technica LT60 though, don't need a preamp and a perfectly reasonable starter (but not trash) enough under $100 you'll have money left for your first vinyl purchase.
VA 2 Channel Focal Electra 926 speakers, Pass Labs X150.5 Amp, Eastern Electric MiniMax Preamp (Tutay mods), Eastern Electric Minimax CDP (Scott Nixon mods), Music Hall mmf 5.1 Turntable, Parks Audio Budgie Phono Pre , Audioengine B1 streamer, MIT S3 IC's / MIT Shotgun S3 Speaker Cables / PS Audio power cables
Noggin Schiit Valhalla, Pangea, Phillips Fidelio X1, Polk UF8000
Polk SDA1c modded
Polk CRS+ 4.1TL modded (need veneer)
Polk SDA2BTL (fully modded)
A/L 1000VA Dreadnought Canare 4s11 SDA cable
SACD Marantz DV8300
Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD
Yamaha YP-D6
Soundcraftsmen PCR800
Audible Illusions L1 Preamp
Vincent MFA based Cocci Tube Preamp
Pho-700 Phono Pre
Signal Cable Silver Resolution IC's
Fischer Model MT 6225?
Technics SL-QD33?
Technics SL-230?
Ironically none of my friends touch records. But one did say to avoid direct drive. Remembering back to my hanging out with DJ days, direct drive was what you wanted. Technics SL-1200 was the gold standard. I take it this is not true for regular listening?
Trying to do it on an incredibly small budget, with seemingly little interest in the format to begin with is a waste of money and time.
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
The rabbit hole of vinyl is a bottomless pit. The least I could do is warn you before you jump in.
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
On that note, once I started reading more about vinyl, boy do I have a whole lot to learn. I had no idea that I’ll apparently need new tools to properly set a table up. Weights, alignments or whatever. Isolation, feedback, cartridge type and output matching the phono inputs.....you guys are dedicated. And to think that six hours ago I thought I’d buy a table, plug it in and viola ! Music! Nope......I love it already. Lol
FWIW the Technics 1200 is still a very fine table and very sought after in the used market. I think you have to look at the "stay away" "junk" comments the same way you would any other audio. Depends on budget, rig, etc.
I think $100 gives you a pretty narrow band, a used table might very well require some maintenance, whereas a new LT-60 is good to go and probably in the same quality range for just getting things going. If you stretched to $200 you could get into an older table that's been refurbed, or a newer one of a little better quality.
All that said, John is absolutely right, there isn't a cheap way to get into vinyl, but there's an inexpensive way to start - it is a crazy rabbit hole though. (LMAO by the way - " I have a 20k turntable for playing records found at the Goodwill for a buck apiece" is funny shite, sig material there)
VA 2 Channel Focal Electra 926 speakers, Pass Labs X150.5 Amp, Eastern Electric MiniMax Preamp (Tutay mods), Eastern Electric Minimax CDP (Scott Nixon mods), Music Hall mmf 5.1 Turntable, Parks Audio Budgie Phono Pre , Audioengine B1 streamer, MIT S3 IC's / MIT Shotgun S3 Speaker Cables / PS Audio power cables
Noggin Schiit Valhalla, Pangea, Phillips Fidelio X1, Polk UF8000
Polk SDA1c modded
Polk CRS+ 4.1TL modded (need veneer)
Polk SDA2BTL (fully modded)
A/L 1000VA Dreadnought Canare 4s11 SDA cable
SACD Marantz DV8300
Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD
Yamaha YP-D6
Soundcraftsmen PCR800
Audible Illusions L1 Preamp
Vincent MFA based Cocci Tube Preamp
Pho-700 Phono Pre
Signal Cable Silver Resolution IC's
Check out garage sales, church sales, local for sale, ask folks if they have any records to sell even if there are none out, etc. Our local Goodwill doesn't carry used vinyl anymore, YMMV. You have to get there when the popular stuff gets put out as it doesn't last long.
We have a large Chicagoland Record show in Hillside (held at a Best Western hotel) where you can buy vinyl for very reasonable prices too.
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
My own personal "no one wants them but they're perfectly OK" turnable fave is the Technics SL-BD22 and its kin (which are legion). These have even less cachet than the above-mentioned linears -- they are cheap and exceedingly plastic-y, but
they have low-mass arms and will play records perfectly well (assuming that the stylus is good).
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/180385/show-me-your-tts#latest
Check out CL. Lot's of choices there, without spending a bunch of cash. I found a Micro Seiki TT MB14 that I'm very happy with.
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Given that new reissue LPs cost around $20 and up, why go thrifty on a turntable and cartridge that may damage the vinyl, or at the least produce sound with a lot of cracks and pops. Equipment to clean the LPs and stylus is essential too.
I would recommend that someone getting into LP playback spend around $300-$400 on the turntable with cartridge. The cartridge selection is at least as important as the turntable itself.
I was reading somewhere recently that a lot of the new LPs being sold to the general public in big box stores are never actually put on a turntable!
2. JM Labs Electra 920.1; Parasound JC2 and JC5; Sony HAP-Z1ES; Marantz SA8004 SACD; Music Hall MMF7 and Acoustech phono pre; PS Audio P1000; MIT S1 Cables
3. Polk LSiM703; Anthem Pre-2L SE; Parasound A21; Sony 48" 4K TV; Wyred4Sound DAC 2; Oppo 203; Squeezebox Touch; PS Audio Power Director 4.7; MIT S3 cables
Maybe you can find an expert tt seller/shipper on eBAY (they do of course, exist), but I'd posit that you'll pay a premium for his or her service, as well.
Buy local if at all possible.
I think that perfectly worthwhile (and safe) reproduction of records can be achieved with modest hardware at modest cost. Pasteur's dictum applies when it comes to sourcing components.
-- my view may not be mainstream here.
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
Bang & Olufson Beogram 1700
Fisher MT-6225 (supposedly TOTL for Fisher
Technics SL-L2
Technics SL-Q300
Technics QD-33
Technics SL-230
All are offered in full working order as per the descriptions.
BTW, I have to buy one now. A midnight visitor brought me a Linda Ronstadt album she found in her moms attic as a gift having seen me looking at tables. It smells weird but has Blue Bayou on it SO I HAVE TO PLAY IT.
All the listed tables above end within a day or three so if I get any “that should work” on any of them I’ll do so.
Already cruised the local goodwills. CList is all DJ equipment. I’ve had really good luck with EBay so far, fingers crossed.
Makes sense. My response to this is that I know myself. The minute I buy one of the tables I listed above I’ll be cruising the stores for tune up parts and needles. Everything but the B&O can use pretty standard parts so if I like vinyl I can move my new needle to an upgraded table. Or something like that. But who knows, I might LIKE what I hear from my cheap old table and just keep it. Records will never be my no1 medium so this is more of a side project.
The (fundamental) problem with a b&o tt is the proprietary, ultra-low-mass cartridge & mounting system. There is one source for them (https://www.sound-smith.com/). The cartridges are very good but (ahem) not inexpensive. Any cheap b&o on eBAY is going to need a cartridge, dollars to donuts (and, just to be clear, the styli are not replaceable).
As to the plethora of P-mount system tts -- one thing to bear in mind is that most of them will be sporting mediocre P-mount cartridges. Fortunately, there are still good quality P-mounts available (e.g., AFAIK, Grado still sells P-mount versions of some of their cartridges, such as the Black), and used is always an option when and if the urge to upgrade strikes. Replacement styli i]should[/i] be available for whatever cartridge (most likely Audio-Technica) that may come with a low-ish end P-mount tt.
As to the specific tts mentioned: The Technics SL-Q300 is plastic-y but not junk ("Quartz lock direct drive", so not exactly chintzy in terms of spinning the platter). The SL-QD33 is cut from very similar cloth (plastic!) but is newer and plastic-ier
No experience with the SL-L2. Looks like an earlier massmarket linear tracker from Panasonic... probably not bad if in good working order; there's a lot to go wrong with the linear trackers.
"TOTL Fisher", from that era, is pretty much an oxymoron
Finally, my luck buying tts on eBAY was (note the tense!) terrible. YMMV, of course -- I guess I'd say if you want to buy a tt from a seller who will have to ship it to you, be sure that the seller has shipped, I dunno, a couple of dozen tts of various kinds (weights!) successfully! My guess is that any good tt vendor on eBAY is well known, and that the going price of their wares will reflect that. Caveat emptor!
PS These are all just my opinions -- not to be taken as immutable fact!
I forget -- have you registered at https://www.vinylengine.com yet?
If not, you should
Living Room:,T+A PA 1530R,Wireworld Silver Eclipse SC, Tyler Highland H2, High Fidelity Reveal RCA, Innuos Zen MK3 , W4S recovery, LKS MH-da004,
Have but haven't used in a while: LH Labs VI Dac, Cayin SCD50T, Grant Fidelity Tube Dac11,Aries Mini
It was written by Orbison and Melson, but it was hers after she sang it! Man, that high note she hits...
And that tying her skate pick in Back in the USA...old pron...lol
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
Thank you! Very helpful. I’m inhaling as much info as I can via the web but experience trumps book knowledge 9.5/10 so this kind of insight is golden.
That’s kind of what I gauged after looking around a bit. I know Fisher was your typical JCPenny box store type brand back then but their totl equipment was supposedly ok.....for what it was. I had a Fisher “system” in a pool table/rec room as a teenager. Giant speakers with 15” woofers played Zepplin IV well enough to fuel many adolescent don’t try this at home activities. Anyway, I couldn’t find anything really bad about it so that’s why it’s on the list.
Savannah Georgia area
Yes yes yes! Timeless and getting better as it passes.
I will say that there are a couple of different philosophies when it comes to turntable design. The b&o mentioned earlier is light and (probably -- not 100% sure for that model) internally suspended. Many other designs, then and now, used very heavy plinths and robust drive systems (which owes a lot to the broadcast tables of the 1950s, 60s and 70s).
A lightweight, ultra-low mass tt (b&o TX-2) and a... rather more massive (and world class) broadcast table (Fairchild 750-2) for comparison. As different as different could be, but the b&o is a good record player and the Fairchild is a great one. Both are two speed, belt drive turntables, but otherwise they approach pretty much every engineering challenge of playing back a record differently.
There are probably folks here with more relevant experience, so I will defer to them on this topic from here on out!
I do have a bunch of Dynamat Extreme left over from a car audio project so lining the entire inside of the enclosure would be easy. Man I use that stuff on everything now anyway, lined the engine box of my sailboat, lined the cowling of the outboard motor on my Whaler, it’s everywhere now, might as well be in my audio gear too.
As much as I’m liking the idea of the B&O because it’s different, having one source of tone arm parts, parts that work no where else, has me about to take it off the list.
It's not my daily driver, but I do like it.
The Fairchild is -- really, truly -- one of the best turntables ever made. They're not common, and not inexpensive... but they really are something to behold. Out of my price range, though
Actually, I had a PL-512XD (belt drive) which was fiberboard with vinyl wood 'veneer' -- but still
The PL-518 would be the one to choose if one presented itself and if the price were right.
The "problem" with those Pioneers is that their spring-loaded feet tend to be in need of replacement at this late date.
Here's a look at one of the feet from the aforementioned PL-512XD, FWIW.