Exploring LP’s

Alan_r · February 10

I’ve been on this exploration of source material lately and it dawned on me that my quest wouldn’t be complete without trying a turntable.

I currently own zero 0 records. So obviously I don’t want to jump in and spend a bunch of money. Even the low level ProJect tables are out of what I’m willing to spend. So this question is aimed more forwards the vintage guys.

Can someone provide a couple brand/models of turntables that would be found cheaply on the bay or classifieds that wouldn’t embarrass the playing of a few records? If I even remotely like what I hear I will upgrade and spend more for something nice. But if I don’t fall in love I’d like to be able to walk away easily. The bay is chock full of turntables under $100 but I know nothing about them other than from the memory of a suitcase record player I had when Carter was in office. From what my MusicDirect catalog is showing me is easy to invest a used S550 into a turntable so that’s not where I’d want to start.

So what’s out there from the 70’s and beyond? Any cheap ones out there that put on a respectable performance?

MrBuhl · February 10

I gave my son a Pioneer Linear Tracking SL-5, I think I got it at GW for $35. He seems happy with it.

I wouldn't discount an Audio Technica LT60 though, don't need a preamp and a perfectly reasonable starter (but not trash) enough under $100 you'll have money left for your first vinyl purchase.

Alan_r · February 10

Thanks I’ll keep an eye out. Admittedly, I know absolutely nothing about turntables. I know my NAD receivers supposedly have decent enough phono preamps in them from what I’ve read. I asked here mainly because every model I’ve come across for sale cheap, after doing a quick google for reviews, has resulted in lots of “junk! Stay away! Waste of money!”. So I figured I’d just ask. Like if somebody asked me to recommend a budget Rx to get them going I’d without hesitation point them towards a NAD 3020 and the like. Cheap as dirt yet you might just end up keeping it around for a long long time. That’s what I am looking for in a turntable. Do you guys even call them record players? Lol.

Fischer Model MT 6225?

Technics SL-QD33?

Technics SL-230?

Ironically none of my friends touch records. But one did say to avoid direct drive. Remembering back to my hanging out with DJ days, direct drive was what you wanted. Technics SL-1200 was the gold standard. I take it this is not true for regular listening?

nooshinjohn · February 10

Vinyl is not something you can explore on the cheap and expect to get from it what it is capable of, or even close. Better for you, IMHO, to get your ears on some quality setups and decide if you want to pursue it further.

Trying to do it on an incredibly small budget, with seemingly little interest in the format to begin with is a waste of money and time.

Alan_r · February 10

John if I applied that to my audio from the beginning I wouldn’t be where I’m at now. I started with a sub $200 NAD/Polk setup that opened the door very wide. The above advice, while I didn’t find any, led me to a B&O 1700 with a serviceable cartridge for fifty bucks. Apparently they don’t sound that bad. I would’ve never run into it had I not searched for Audio Technica, which I’ve never even heard of. So take it easy on me, I’m just looking for an entry point. Years ago I’d just buy some stuff and try it out, but thankfully these forums allow me to talk to a bunch of people who know much more than I do.

nooshinjohn · February 10

I am trying to take it easy on you, and more importantly, on your wallet. I started off where you are ten years ago now, and now I have a 20k turntable for playing records found at the Goodwill for a buck apiece.

The rabbit hole of vinyl is a bottomless pit. The least I could do is warn you before you jump in.

Alan_r · February 10

Haha. You are correct my forum friend. Yes you are. I wasn’t properly warned five years ago when I started down the audio rabbit hole.....now I’ve got systems is three rooms and I’m building a new one for a cabin. But hey, you can’t take any of it with you in the end so you might as well indulge in everything and anything while one can. You might not wake up tomorrow, that 20g wouldn’t have done anything for you. But that turntable provided you with hours/days/weeks of enjoyment. You can’t put a price on that.

On that note, once I started reading more about vinyl, boy do I have a whole lot to learn. I had no idea that I’ll apparently need new tools to properly set a table up. Weights, alignments or whatever. Isolation, feedback, cartridge type and output matching the phono inputs.....you guys are dedicated. And to think that six hours ago I thought I’d buy a table, plug it in and viola ! Music! Nope......I love it already. Lol

MrBuhl · February 10

@Alan_r I wouldn't avoid direct drive at all - I have a Yamaha YP-D6 that is a fine table and direct drive. I've also had idler wheel (Dual 1229) and now have two belt drives. IMO, DD is a plus in a vintage table.

FWIW the Technics 1200 is still a very fine table and very sought after in the used market. I think you have to look at the "stay away" "junk" comments the same way you would any other audio. Depends on budget, rig, etc.

I think $100 gives you a pretty narrow band, a used table might very well require some maintenance, whereas a new LT-60 is good to go and probably in the same quality range for just getting things going. If you stretched to $200 you could get into an older table that's been refurbed, or a newer one of a little better quality.

All that said, John is absolutely right, there isn't a cheap way to get into vinyl, but there's an inexpensive way to start - it is a crazy rabbit hole though. (LMAO by the way - " I have a 20k turntable for playing records found at the Goodwill for a buck apiece" is funny shite, sig material there)

SCompRacer · February 10

The vinyl resurgence, which IMO hasn't ended or slowed down, means used record prices in stores are higher. Especially in the Chicago area and suburbs. We have to go into Wisconsin for reasonable record prices. Road trips, hitting a few stores with a couple friends, are fun.

Check out garage sales, church sales, local for sale, ask folks if they have any records to sell even if there are none out, etc. Our local Goodwill doesn't carry used vinyl anymore, YMMV. You have to get there when the popular stuff gets put out as it doesn't last long.

We have a large Chicagoland Record show in Hillside (held at a Best Western hotel) where you can buy vinyl for very reasonable prices too.

mhardy6647 · February 10

I like the suggestion of a 1980s linear tracker -- most of them have zero cachet and should still be cheap (or free!). There's a lot to go wrong with them -- but on the other hand, they're fairly robust. If they work, they should work OK.

My own personal "no one wants them but they're perfectly OK" turnable fave is the Technics SL-BD22 and its kin (which are legion). These have even less cachet than the above-mentioned linears -- they are cheap and exceedingly plastic-y, but
they have low-mass arms and will play records perfectly well (assuming that the stylus is good).

verb · February 10

I traveled the same journey not more that a few weeks ago. See my thread:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/180385/show-me-your-tts#latest
Check out CL. Lot's of choices there, without spending a bunch of cash. I found a Micro Seiki TT MB14 that I'm very happy with.

Emlyn · February 10

Food for thought...

Given that new reissue LPs cost around $20 and up, why go thrifty on a turntable and cartridge that may damage the vinyl, or at the least produce sound with a lot of cracks and pops. Equipment to clean the LPs and stylus is essential too.

I would recommend that someone getting into LP playback spend around $300-$400 on the turntable with cartridge. The cartridge selection is at least as important as the turntable itself.

I was reading somewhere recently that a lot of the new LPs being sold to the general public in big box stores are never actually put on a turntable!

mhardy6647 · February 10

oh -- one other comment. The odds of any arbitrary seller on eBAY successfully packing a turntable to survive shipping are vanishingly small

Maybe you can find an expert tt seller/shipper on eBAY (they do of course, exist), but I'd posit that you'll pay a premium for his or her service, as well.

Buy local if at all possible.

I think that perfectly worthwhile (and safe) reproduction of records can be achieved with modest hardware at modest cost. Pasteur's dictum applies when it comes to sourcing components.

Chance favors the prepared mind

-- my view may not be mainstream here.

verb · February 10

Agree. Buy Local if possible.

msg · February 10

Ha, which is probably how these $%*&y press plants are able to get away with horrendous quality.

Emlyn wrote: »

I was reading somewhere recently that a lot of the new LPs being sold to the general public in big box stores are never actually put on a turntable!

SCompRacer · February 10

I bought this on ebay to fix a friends table. A Kenwood, can't recall model, but his looked like new. I insulted the seller asking if it would be packed properly (platter removed, etc). I was scolded and told he has been shipping turntables for years...I got it cheap in the end.

mhardy6647 · February 10

Rule number one is to remove the platter and wrap it up well -- and separate from the tt proper (actually, for some direct drives, this may be a challenge). Rule number two relates to securing the tone arm.

Alan_r · February 11

Wow guys thanks for the insight here. Are some of these sub C note tables on eBay really that bad? I’ve narrowed a few down that if still selling for what they are, get decent nods and aren’t getting any interest.

Bang & Olufson Beogram 1700

Fisher MT-6225 (supposedly TOTL for Fisher

Technics SL-L2

Technics SL-Q300

Technics QD-33

Technics SL-230

All are offered in full working order as per the descriptions.

BTW, I have to buy one now. A midnight visitor brought me a Linda Ronstadt album she found in her moms attic as a gift having seen me looking at tables. It smells weird but has Blue Bayou on it SO I HAVE TO PLAY IT.

All the listed tables above end within a day or three so if I get any “that should work” on any of them I’ll do so.

Alan_r · February 11

verb wrote: »

Agree. Buy Local if possible.

Already cruised the local goodwills. CList is all DJ equipment. I’ve had really good luck with EBay so far, fingers crossed.

Alan_r · February 11

Emlyn wrote: »

Food for thought...

Given that new reissue LPs cost around $20 and up, why go thrifty on a turntable and cartridge that may damage the vinyl, or at the least produce sound with a lot of cracks and pops. Equipment to clean the LPs and stylus is essential too.

I would recommend that someone getting into LP playback spend around $300-$400 on the turntable with cartridge. The cartridge selection is at least as important as the turntable itself.

I was reading somewhere recently that a lot of the new LPs being sold to the general public in big box stores are never actually put on a turntable!

Makes sense. My response to this is that I know myself. The minute I buy one of the tables I listed above I’ll be cruising the stores for tune up parts and needles. Everything but the B&O can use pretty standard parts so if I like vinyl I can move my new needle to an upgraded table. Or something like that. But who knows, I might LIKE what I hear from my cheap old table and just keep it. Records will never be my no1 medium so this is more of a side project.

mhardy6647 · February 11

SL-230 is a decent enough belt drive tt of the 'classic' kind. A little plastic-ier than its forebears, but not junk.

The (fundamental) problem with a b&o tt is the proprietary, ultra-low-mass cartridge & mounting system. There is one source for them (https://www.sound-smith.com/). The cartridges are very good but (ahem) not inexpensive. Any cheap b&o on eBAY is going to need a cartridge, dollars to donuts (and, just to be clear, the styli are not replaceable).

As to the plethora of P-mount system tts -- one thing to bear in mind is that most of them will be sporting mediocre P-mount cartridges. Fortunately, there are still good quality P-mounts available (e.g., AFAIK, Grado still sells P-mount versions of some of their cartridges, such as the Black), and used is always an option when and if the urge to upgrade strikes. Replacement styli i]should[/i] be available for whatever cartridge (most likely Audio-Technica) that may come with a low-ish end P-mount tt.

As to the specific tts mentioned: The Technics SL-Q300 is plastic-y but not junk ("Quartz lock direct drive", so not exactly chintzy in terms of spinning the platter). The SL-QD33 is cut from very similar cloth (plastic!) but is newer and plastic-ier

Of the two, I'd pick the former.

No experience with the SL-L2. Looks like an earlier massmarket linear tracker from Panasonic... probably not bad if in good working order; there's a lot to go wrong with the linear trackers.

"TOTL Fisher", from that era, is pretty much an oxymoron

(well, not quite, but by and large Sanyo-era Fisher is no great shakes) That said, I have zero experience with the model of which you ask.

Finally, my luck buying tts on eBAY was (note the tense!) terrible. YMMV, of course -- I guess I'd say if you want to buy a tt from a seller who will have to ship it to you, be sure that the seller has shipped, I dunno, a couple of dozen tts of various kinds (weights!) successfully! My guess is that any good tt vendor on eBAY is well known, and that the going price of their wares will reflect that. Caveat emptor!

PS These are all just my opinions -- not to be taken as immutable fact!

mhardy6647 · February 11

OK, I provisionally take back my snarky comments about the Fisher!

It looks... not bad. No experience, and I am not sure who would have made it (maybe Sanyo, more likely CEC or maybe Micro-Seiki?). Looks like not junk.

I forget -- have you registered at https://www.vinylengine.com yet?
If not, you should

You can d/l manuals for most if not all of the tts you asked about from them.

erniejade · February 11

What area are you in?

SCompRacer · February 11

Alan_r wrote: »

.

BTW, I have to buy one now. A midnight visitor brought me a Linda Ronstadt album she found in her moms attic as a gift having seen me looking at tables. It smells weird but has Blue Bayou on it SO I HAVE TO PLAY IT.

It was written by Orbison and Melson, but it was hers after she sang it! Man, that high note she hits...

And that tying her skate pick in Back in the USA...old pron...lol

Alan_r · February 11

mhardy6647 wrote: »

SL-230 is a decent enough belt drive tt of the 'classic' kind. A little plastic-ier than its forebears, but not junk.

The (fundamental) problem with a b&o tt is the proprietary, ultra-low-mass cartridge & mounting system. There is one source for them (https://www.sound-smith.com/). The cartridges are very good but (ahem) not inexpensive. Any cheap b&o on eBAY is going to need a cartridge, dollars to donuts (and, just to be clear, the styli are not replaceable).

As to the plethora of P-mount system tts -- one thing to bear in mind is that most of them will be sporting mediocre P-mount cartridges. Fortunately, there are still good quality P-mounts available (e.g., AFAIK, Grado still sells P-mount versions of some of their cartridges, such as the Black), and used is always an option when and if the urge to upgrade strikes. Replacement styli i]should[/i] be available for whatever cartridge (most likely Audio-Technica) that may come with a low-ish end P-mount tt.

As to the specific tts mentioned: The Technics SL-Q300 is plastic-y but not junk ("Quartz lock direct drive", so not exactly chintzy in terms of spinning the platter). The SL-QD33 is cut from very similar cloth (plastic!) but is newer and plastic-ier Of the two, I'd pick the former.

No experience with the SL-L2. Looks like an earlier massmarket linear tracker from Panasonic... probably not bad if in good working order; there's a lot to go wrong with the linear trackers.

"TOTL Fisher", from that era, is pretty much an oxymoron (well, not quite, but by and large Sanyo-era Fisher is no great shakes) That said, I have zero experience with the model of which you ask.

Finally, my luck buying tts on eBAY was (note the tense!) terrible. YMMV, of course -- I guess I'd say if you want to buy a tt from a seller who will have to ship it to you, be sure that the seller has shipped, I dunno, a couple of dozen tts of various kinds (weights!) successfully! My guess is that any good tt vendor on eBAY is well known, and that the going price of their wares will reflect that. Caveat emptor!

PS These are all just my opinions -- not to be taken as immutable fact!

Thank you! Very helpful. I’m inhaling as much info as I can via the web but experience trumps book knowledge 9.5/10 so this kind of insight is golden.

mhardy6647 wrote: »

OK, I provisionally take back my snarky comments about the Fisher! It looks... not bad. No experience, and I am not sure who would have made it (maybe Sanyo, more likely CEC or maybe Micro-Seiki?). Looks like not junk.

I forget -- have you registered at https://www.vinylengine.com yet?
If not, you should You can d/l manuals for most if not all of the tts you asked about from them.

That’s kind of what I gauged after looking around a bit. I know Fisher was your typical JCPenny box store type brand back then but their totl equipment was supposedly ok.....for what it was. I had a Fisher “system” in a pool table/rec room as a teenager. Giant speakers with 15” woofers played Zepplin IV well enough to fuel many adolescent don’t try this at home activities. Anyway, I couldn’t find anything really bad about it so that’s why it’s on the list.

erniejade wrote: »

What area are you in?

Savannah Georgia area

SCompRacer wrote: »

Alan_r wrote: »

.

BTW, I have to buy one now. A midnight visitor brought me a Linda Ronstadt album she found in her moms attic as a gift having seen me looking at tables. It smells weird but has Blue Bayou on it SO I HAVE TO PLAY IT.

It was written by Orbison and Melson, but it was hers after she sang it! Man, that high note she hits...

And that tying her skate pick in Back in the USA...old pron...lol

Yes yes yes! Timeless and getting better as it passes.

Alan_r · February 11

Almost forgot, you guys are mentioning plastic a lot regarding these tables. I’m taking this as meaning they have so much plastic that they are very lightweight, which is apparently counterproductive to good sound and low feedback. Would these cheap tables then benefit from modern tweaks such as (forgive my terminology here) those weights I see sold to sit on top of the records, or plates, along with very good isolation when placing the turntable? Basically add some mass, isolate it and equip it with a quality needle cartridge.

mhardy6647 · February 11

Some damping material inside the plinth (cabinet) of the really plastic-y ones probably couldn't hurt. As to weights and clamps for the platter -- I reckon (this is just a SWAG!) that the issue could be whether the drive system has enough oompf to accommodate it.

I will say that there are a couple of different philosophies when it comes to turntable design. The b&o mentioned earlier is light and (probably -- not 100% sure for that model) internally suspended. Many other designs, then and now, used very heavy plinths and robust drive systems (which owes a lot to the broadcast tables of the 1950s, 60s and 70s).

A lightweight, ultra-low mass tt (b&o TX-2) and a... rather more massive (and world class) broadcast table (Fairchild 750-2) for comparison. As different as different could be, but the b&o is a good record player and the Fairchild is a great one. Both are two speed, belt drive turntables, but otherwise they approach pretty much every engineering challenge of playing back a record differently.

DSC_2913 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

There are probably folks here with more relevant experience, so I will defer to them on this topic from here on out!

Alan_r · February 11

Wow that’s some serious looking gear. That second one would be a conversation piece for sure.

I do have a bunch of Dynamat Extreme left over from a car audio project so lining the entire inside of the enclosure would be easy. Man I use that stuff on everything now anyway, lined the engine box of my sailboat, lined the cowling of the outboard motor on my Whaler, it’s everywhere now, might as well be in my audio gear too.

As much as I’m liking the idea of the B&O because it’s different, having one source of tone arm parts, parts that work no where else, has me about to take it off the list.

mhardy6647 · February 11

Soooooooo -- FWIW -- that TX-2 in the photo I posted is mine.

It's not my daily driver, but I do like it.

TX-2 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

The Fairchild is -- really, truly -- one of the best turntables ever made. They're not common, and not inexpensive... but they really are something to behold. Out of my price range, though

Msabot1 · February 11

Pioneer PL518....if ya can find one..will handle your vinyl well...good starter table..

mhardy6647 · February 11

^^^ Any of that series, actually... again, a little on the late/(EDIT) meagerly-constructed side, but not bad.
Actually, I had a PL-512XD (belt drive) which was fiberboard with vinyl wood 'veneer' -- but still

The PL-518 would be the one to choose if one presented itself and if the price were right.

The "problem" with those Pioneers is that their spring-loaded feet tend to be in need of replacement at this late date.

Here's a look at one of the feet from the aforementioned PL-512XD, FWIW.

Exploring LP’s

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Exploring LP’s

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