HK Bi-Amping - First Impressions

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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited April 2004
    OK, I've had a chance to listen to excerpts from a few more action movies (thanks to my DTS Demo disk) to check out the bi-amping of the center channel. I'll say right off the bat that the difference is not a dramatic one. I was listening for greater depth in the dialogue, especially during busy action scenes. I was also listening for detail and a broader front stage. What I found was slightly more detail, more syllabence (sp.), a bit more dynamic presence. There was also a noticeable increase in bass during action scenes.

    Overall, there isn't a "knock your socks off" difference for movies. Since I don't listen to music in surround sound, I didn't check that out. However, I would surmise that the difference would be greater for music listening. I may need to do some tweaking and let the amp burn-in, and I may hear more improvement over time.

    My recommendation would be to pursue bi-amping your center channel, but it should be considered a nice tweak once you've exhausted other methods for upgrading your sound (good speakers, nice receiver, high quality sources, placement optimization, interconnects, Hsu or SVS sub, bi-amping the fronts, etc.). To me, it was worth the money I spent ($197 plus shipping for a NIB HK amp -- 200 watts feeding the center channel).
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Mike682
    Mike682 Posts: 2,074
    edited April 2004
    To me, it was worth the money I spent ($197 plus shipping for a NIB HK amp -- 200 watts feeding the center channel).

    Earlyb, did you pick it up at onecall?

    While on the topic of adding amplifiers, I was wondering why manufacturers mostly put preamp outs on more expensive models and not the entry level units?
    Receiver: harmankardon AVR235
    Mains: polk R30
    Center: polk CSi3
    Rear Surrounds: polk R20
    Subwoofer: polk PSW404
    DVD: Panasonic DVD-S29
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    So how do you have the amp hooked up to the center?
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited April 2004
    Guys, a little question...

    I'm planning to run 5 * RTi70 for my surround sound. Should I invest in this 5*80W Carver amp to help out my H/K 7200 or would the 100W be enough for a RTi70? 16-46PCi from SVS will handle mos t of the bass.

    http://ww2.onecall.com/About_00001000_22_68_0_24_0_0.htm
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Sami
    Guys, a little question...

    I'm planning to run 5 * RTi70 for my surround sound. Should I invest in this 5*80W Carver amp to help out my H/K 7200 or would the 100W be enough for a RTi70? 16-46PCi from SVS will handle mos t of the bass.

    http://ww2.onecall.com/About_00001000_22_68_0_24_0_0.htm
    100WPC of HK power is plenty for the RTi70s, but at the price on the Carver...you might as well pick it up as well...
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited April 2004
    I'm planning to run 5 * RTi70 for my surround sound. Should I invest in this 5*80W Carver amp to help out my H/K 7200 or would the 100W be enough for a RTi70? 16-46PCi from SVS will handle mos t of the bass.

    Absolutely!!! Get the Carver amp and bi-amp all five speakers.


    Earlyb, did you pick it up at onecall?

    Yes. Great prices and outstanding customer service. They even called me yesterday to ask me if I had any questions about my amp.


    So how do you have the amp hooked up to the center?

    The highs on the center channel are hook into one channel and the lows to the other channel.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited April 2004
    Early,

    Any update on how you like the Center Bi-Amp'd, or do you need more time with it?

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited April 2004
    Ok, if I get that Carver (Class A BTW), I'd probably be even better running it to highs and let the H/K handle the lows. How about configuring it, is it just plug-and-play or do I have to adjust the volume to match each other?
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Sami
    Ok, if I get that Carver (Class A BTW), I'd probably be even better running it to highs and let the H/K handle the lows. How about configuring it, is it just plug-and-play or do I have to adjust the volume to match each other?
    Jesus Christ a 5 ch 80WPC Class A amp!!!

    If that thing's really runnihg 80 WPC of Class A power into 5 chanels it's got to be a monster...That thing's gonna need lots of juice and is going to run hotter than the blazes of hell...

    I have to question the Class A claim a bit at that power and price point, maybe it's some type of proprietary version of Class A, maybe Class AB or something...
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited April 2004
    "input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode"

    http://www.onecall.com/PID_23715.htm

    That sucker is huge.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Sami
    "input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode"

    http://www.onecall.com/PID_23715.htm

    That sucker is huge.
    Oh I saw the info on that page, just questioning it a bit...
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Polkmaniac
    Oh I saw the info on that page, just questioning it a bit...
    So should I get it? :D

    Still need to find another pair of RTi70's to complete the surround system. That and the Carver would set me back another $600.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Sami
    "input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode"

    http://www.onecall.com/PID_23715.htm

    That sucker is huge.
    Actually maybe the 'input circuitry' does operate in Class A mode, but that's only half the story...

    The whole idea behind Class A is having the input and output stages open at the same time all the time so that you have a steady flow of 'juice' at all times, as opposed to switching circuitry which basically turns each on and off repeatedly...This is why these things (Class A amps) run really hot and use lots of juice, becuase it's having to 'maintain' a constant flow of current.

    I'm sure that it has "input circuit topology that operates in constant Class-A mode", but I don't think that qualifies it as a true Class A amp...I think they just stick that in there becuase people will see Class A and think "Coll Class A is good"

    Anyway, I'm sure it's an awesome amp and have been contemplating purchasing one myself...just curious on the Class A statement...

    Hell, maybe it is Class A and I'm just way off base...
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Sami
    So should I get it? :D

    Still need to find another pair of RTi70's to complete the surround system. That and the Carver would set me back another $600.
    Yeah sure, it's still a bad **** amp...most of the amps on the market I doubt are true Class A...
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited April 2004
    I'm considering purchasing the Carver amp myself. I'd hook up my rears and surrounds with it.

    Really don't need it right now, but since it's such a great deal, I could certainly use it in the future when I go to separates for HT.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited April 2004
    Pm,
    You are correct. That Carver is not a pure class A amp.

    Still looks to be a pretty sweet deal.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited April 2004
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    Pm,
    You are correct. That Carver is not a pure class A amp.

    Still looks to be a pretty sweet deal.
    Well, glad to see I'm not losing my mind...
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited April 2004
    From what I know about Amp’s all low level signal areas are Class A. That’s "A" in the amp's input side of things. Like all pre-amps are class A, it's a design where 1 transistor can be used in the signal with the least noise produced. I wish manufactures wouldn't try to confuse people with these deceptive marketing phrases.

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited May 2004
    OK, I've had a chance to listen to excerpts from a few more action movies (thanks to my DTS Demo disk) to check out the bi-amping of the center channel. I'll say right off the bat that the difference is not a dramatic one. I was listening for greater depth in the dialogue, especially during busy action scenes. I was also listening for detail and a broader front stage. What I found was slightly more detail, more syllabence (sp.), a bit more dynamic presence. There was also a noticeable increase in bass during action scenes.


    UPDATE -- I went into the receiver's setup menu and changed the levels on a couple of the speakers. Then popped in The Last Samuri. Made a sizeable difference. The bi-amped center channel began sounding more "theater-ish". Deeper bass in the voices. More powerful presence. Well worth the investment.

    Moral of the story -- don't rely too heavily on auto-calibration.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • jefft1314
    jefft1314 Posts: 169
    edited May 2004
    I imagine companies put preouts on their more expensive models because those who buy more expensive receivers probably wish they had the money for preamps/amps. Anticipating that the customer will probably someday want to add amplifiers especially if he picks up powerful speakers, adding preouts to a highend receiver guaranttes that that receiver will stay in that person's house. If you put preouts on a low end receiver they probably wouldn't be used because the amps would be bottlenecked by the processing in the low end models.

    Just my.02%
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