Where to go from here...

mdaudioguy
mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
in 2 Channel Audio
I'm getting ready to open a box containing a brand new pair of Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand bookshelf speakers. I've also got a line on a used, but reportedly excellent condition, matching center. Yes, I know this is the 2-channel forum. That will be the emphasis of this rig, but it will also have to pull double duty, as probably a 5.1 system. I'll be looking for some in-ceiling surrounds to round out the speakers, but what I'm really wanting to put some thought into is power. These speakers are rated at 6 ohms, so will represent quite a load for a receiver, but I wouldn't be happy with that anyhow. What I'm thinking is some sort of home theater bypass solution, but I'm not yet well read about such gear. Budget is up to 2 large - new, used, refurbished is fine. Looking for ideas. Thanks in advance!
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Comments

  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,934
    I know @halo has some experience with products containing HT bypass.

    Afraid I'm worthless regarding this stuff, but I will say those are very nice looking speakers:

    haydn_black.jpg
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  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Separates? One 2ch and one 3ch plus a pre
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  • sgmsmg
    sgmsmg Posts: 546
    Parasound P7?
    2 Channel
    Pre:Bryston BP173
    Amp:Bryston 14B3
    Speakers: Golden Ear Triton Reference
    Source: Oppo UDP-205, Bryston BDA-3, Bryston BDP-3, Bryston BCD-3, Apple TV, Amazon Fire
    Cables: Wireworld Gold Eclipse 7 Speaker, Wireworld Gold Eclipse 7 XLR, AQ Diamond USB/HDMI
    Power: PS Audio P10 Regenerator, AC12, AC10 and AC5 Cables
    Display: Sony XBR65Z9F

    Home Theater
    Pre: Anthem AVM90
    Amps: Parasound A31, A51x2
    Speakers: Polk LSiM 707 (FL/FR), Polk LSiM706 (Center), LSiM 703 (SL/SR/SBL/SBR), Polk 900-LS (Atmos)
    Subwoofers: SVS SB16 x 4
    Source: Oppo UDP-205, Apple TV, Amazon Fire
    Cables: AQ Meteor/Rocket 88, AQ Niagara/Sky
    Power: Torus AVR20, Shunyata Denali, Shunyata Delta, Cullen, PangeaAC9SE Cables
    Display: Sony XBR85Z9G
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,415
    This will solve your HT Bypass issue and take your entire rig to a place you never knew it could go.

    http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649412909-pass-labx-x1-preamp-preamplifier-with-remote/
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    I owned three different preamps with HT bypass and each was a little different.

    Jolida Fusion preamp isn’t a good candidate for a 2.1 or 3.1 setup as it has issues integrating a sub properly. Other than that, it’s a ridiculously good sounding preamp.

    Parasound Halo P5 is a nice little do it all/jack of all trades. The built in DAC isn’t half bad. The HT Bypass is super simple and easy to use, matching the output on the AVR very well. The sub’s output can be adjusted from the front panel of the pre but not by the remote.

    Cary CPA-1 is a really nice sounding piece of equipment. What I don’t like are the digits volume control (yes, there’s a volume knob but it goes up and down with a set increase/decrease each tick of the counter) and the HT bypass volume has to be raised considerably to match what the AVR is outputting on its own.
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    Well, thanks for all the comments and suggestions! Especially @halo with the 3 for 1. I certainly don't know enough about these, what I'm wondering is how do I get 5.1 with these options? I was originally thinking I wanted an integrated with HT bypass, like the TEAC @stangman67 just sold. Do I want a 2 channel pre or integrated and a multi-channel processor/AVR? I know, gotta get my read on...
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    The preamp with the HT bypass handles your main Left and main Right speakers. The power amp connected to the preamp drives those two main speakers. Your AVR handles the center channel and surrounds. The powered sub handles itself.
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
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  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    For simplicity, a good quality AVR pre is what you want. Anything after that is along for the ride. Having a pre AND an AVR is overkill and can cause more issues than it solves. Let the pre do all the work and get a dedicated 2ch amp. The CC and surrounds should be run by a 3 or 4ch amp (4 ch has the CC bi-amped or bridged).
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  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    I attempted letting my AV processor serve as my 2 channel pre as well with crappy results. It was the top of the line Onkyo at the time (PRSC5509) which is what pushed me towards getting a two channel setup. I like the idea of a integrated amp with HT bypass and a dedicated AV PRE/PRO
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    Ok, so I'm leaning toward an integrated amp with HT bypass, rather than a preamp with HT bypass. If I get an AVR with pre-outs, I can power the left and right speakers with that for HT and the center and surrounds can run off the AVR, right? Or, another option would be a preamp processor, plus an integrated amp with HT bypass, and another amp for the remaining speakers. As I understand, an integrated amp with HT bypass will function as a straight power amp for full HT use, and as a result integrated amp for 2-channel (or 2.1-channel) use. Do I have this right??
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    Gonna need a beefy integrated. Just realized the Haydn Grand bookshelves are 4 ohms, while the Theatro center is 6. Not sure yet what I'll use for surrounds, but I don't think VA offers much of anything for in-ceiling installation... Maybe some Polks?
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  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    Wish the TEAC was still around, id let you give it a whirl. It would laugh at that 4 ohm load :)
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    I was sooo interested in that, even before your last couple price drops! :o I just hadn't quite figured out where I was heading at that time... Oh well!
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    So, let's say I find an integrated amp with HT bypass capability and I want to run a sub for 2.1 music listening. Then, I want to switch over to 5.1 for a movie. The sub would be connected to the integrated, but the LFE signal comes from the AVR. Does it pass through the integrated? Or, do I set up the AVR with no sub and run the fronts full range and use the crossover adjustment in the sub? So many things to consider with this setup.
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  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 8,121
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    So, let's say I find an integrated amp with HT bypass capability and I want to run a sub for 2.1 music listening. Then, I want to switch over to 5.1 for a movie. The sub would be connected to the integrated, but the LFE signal comes from the AVR. Does it pass through the integrated? Or, do I set up the AVR with no sub and run the fronts full range and use the crossover adjustment in the sub? So many things to consider with this setup.

    I would have to be the latter me thinks...because the crossover would be happening either in the integrated or in the sub itself. Either way, the AVR isn't going to "see" any sub, so run the mains full range, sub off, and .1 is mixed in with the mains.

    I will be interested in what you come up with, because I have always been interested in doing something like this, but shied away because of cost and/or complications...
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
    Game Room 5.1.4:     Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
    Bedroom 2.1     Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,415
    Or just get a REL sub, which sees input from the high side, meaning the speaker taps of the amp.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited February 2018
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    Or just get a REL sub, which sees input from the high side, meaning the speaker taps of the amp.
    I have a Sunfire HRS-8 that also has speaker level inputs.
    http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=17
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    So, here's what I *might* do...
    Marantz PM8006 integrated (w/ HT bypass) for 2-channel (these seem to well liked), and one of the slimline receivers for HT, NR-1508 or 1608. And a pair of Martin Logan ML-60i for surrounds, or two pairs if I go with the 1608. The receiver would have to run my 6 ohm center, but the integrated would handle the 4 ohm bookshelves, and the surrounds shouldn't be a big deal for the receiver either.

    Or, maybe I'll just go for it and get the PM-14S1 Reference Series instead... :p
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
    I have a 5.1 / 2channel setup using a preamp and a receiver. The front speakers are powered with external amps and the center and surrounds are powered by the receiver.

    When you watch a movie or TV the receiver is on and the preamp is off. The front speakers still get the power from the external amps. When you listen to 2 channel the receiver is out of the mix with the preamp on and using the power from the external amps.

    Very easy to use either way and your 2 channel will sound the best this way.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • rburgess714
    rburgess714 Posts: 616
    What about the Parasound Halo Integrated. It has ht bypass, sub control . 160 wpc at 8 ohms and 240 at 4 ohms. A bit over budget but would meet your requirements.
    Living Room
    Parasound HINT 6, Yamaha Aventage RX-A 1060, Oppo 103D, Cambridge Audio Azur 851N, KLH Model 5s, Polk CSi A6, Samsung 65" LED

    Office
    Yamaha A-S501, Auralic Aries Mini, LSiM 703s

    Douglas Connection ICs and Cables
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    I've heard these speakers with a Parasound amp, and something was missing - just kind of dull. Maybe a one-off experience, but it has me kind of hesitant to go that way.
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  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,289
    I have a nr1608 in my living room. Real nice little receiver
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
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  • rburgess714
    rburgess714 Posts: 616
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    I've heard these speakers with a Parasound amp, and something was missing - just kind of dull. Maybe a one-off experience, but it has me kind of hesitant to go that way.

    Understood, trust your ears, those Vienna Acoustics like nice . The funny thing is I went through the same scenario over the last 18 months. Wanted 3.0 that was really good for 2 channel music. Added an amp to an avr and while it was really good I still wanted to hear what dedicated 2 channel system with preamp/amp would sound like. Long and short I ended up with 2 systems and I am pleased with both.
    Living Room
    Parasound HINT 6, Yamaha Aventage RX-A 1060, Oppo 103D, Cambridge Audio Azur 851N, KLH Model 5s, Polk CSi A6, Samsung 65" LED

    Office
    Yamaha A-S501, Auralic Aries Mini, LSiM 703s

    Douglas Connection ICs and Cables
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    rburgess714 wrote: »
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    I've heard these speakers with a Parasound amp, and something was missing - just kind of dull. Maybe a one-off experience, but it has me kind of hesitant to go that way.

    Understood, trust your ears, those Vienna Acoustics like nice . The funny thing is I went through the same scenario over the last 18 months. Wanted 3.0 that was really good for 2 channel music. Added an amp to an avr and while it was really good I still wanted to hear what dedicated 2 channel system with preamp/amp would sound like. Long and short I ended up with 2 systems and I am pleased with both.
    Wheels are in motion for a Marantz slimline AVR/Marantz integrated amp with home theater bypass, or as they call it, power amp direct mode. I'm thinking of this as a "dedicated" 2-channel system that also happens to do HT. ;)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,801
    "power amp direct mode" -- hope there's a volume control in there someplace ;)
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    "power amp direct mode" -- hope there's a volume control in there someplace ;)
    It has its own volume control when functioning as a 2-channel integrated amp. The power amp direct mode inputs connect to the preamp outputs of the AVR, which, of course, also has a volume control. In this mode, the integrated amp's volume control is bypassed.
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  • Rich502
    Rich502 Posts: 146
    Sounds interesting with the Marantz setup, let us know how it goes.
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    Hehehe, this is working out better than I had imagined. For now, the new integrated will just function as a power amp for the VA bookies, with the AVR as a pre-amp. When I eventually get a separate DAC, I'll take the AVR out of the picture for stereo listening.
    wicj1v1h6pkd.jpg
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    I'm pleased with the AVR's DAC for now. The only alternative was the DAC built into the Squeezebox Touch, but I think going through the AVR had a clearer, more refined sound. A DAC will be next, followed by power cords, ICs, speaker cables, and high level sub connection, but these next steps will likely take some time to come to fruition, as my budget allows.
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