Noise theory...Internal SSD, USB HD, or DNLA
afterburnt
Posts: 7,892
I was reading on another forum that someone thought that an internal HD in an Auralic Airies Mini would be the noisiest of the above for playback of digital files. I just figured that the internal SSD would be the best. What do yall think would be best in theory and why? Also, do you think an SSD is superior to a spinny HD in general? I want to get a big SSD but if the other methods are supposed to be better I could save some bucks.
Comments
-
Moving parts = noise
Go SSMojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
1KVA Dreadnought
Marantz SA 8005
Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
Sony PS4
Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video
"All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER" -
Are you asking about ambient, "environmental" noise caused by the hardware, or noise riding on the signal from the data recovery process, or RFI from the whole shebang that may be influencing your audio chain "inductively", so to speak?
In any case, I don't know the answer to your question, but there are so many different kinds of 'noise'.
-
@mhardy6647 The post said that an internal would introduce more noise than an external drive or DNLA. I did figure that SSD would be better because there are no moving parts but more so wondered about DNLA. That cost me nothing to use but I thought it had even more potential to introduce noise.
-
mmm -- I still don't know what kind of noise you're worrying about.
I should just stay away from any digital discussion!
-
All this discussion does not matter one bit if your room and system noise floor isn't at a certain level.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
This brings up a thought I've had the past few days... 1s and 0s... Aside from bit errors, there is no noise or color or any other esoteric sensation that can be imparted into a 1 or 0 (on and off). So goes the big question of the day: how can a cable between a digital source and a digital receiver change the sound? Especially Toslink (optical) cables...
-
This brings up a thought I've had the past few days... 1s and 0s... Aside from bit errors, there is no noise or color or any other esoteric sensation that can be imparted into a 1 or 0 (on and off). So goes the big question of the day: how can a cable between a digital source and a digital receiver change the sound? Especially Toslink (optical) cables...
OY VEY! Are you new here? -
This brings up a thought I've had the past few days... 1s and 0s... Aside from bit errors, there is no noise or color or any other esoteric sensation that can be imparted into a 1 or 0 (on and off). So goes the big question of the day: how can a cable between a digital source and a digital receiver change the sound? Especially Toslink (optical) cables...
TOSLINK is the worst conversion for jitter
There are power supplies for these conversion that cause noise....not all about 1's and 0's2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Lol yeah, how can you tell?
Seriously though, as I stated above, bit errors aside, you cannot make a 1 or a 0 sound any differently than it is. A 1 transmitted over a digital line will always = 1, not ∆, and 0 = 0, not ß. So unless there's something interjecting carp from outside... Now once the signal goes analog, that's a different can of worms.
And I say especially Toslink, because there's no possible EMI interference with that connection. Light doesn't work that way... And the bandwidth capacity of optical is far greater than any audio source out today. -
Lol yeah, how can you tell?
Now once the signal goes analog, that's a different can of worms.
And that is the problem with Toslink
Basic home AVR spread the music stuff...OK
Real 2 channel....pffft
2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
The whole issue is the interface where data is turned into 1 and 0, and then into analog.
Some argue that an Ethernet cable can't affect the sound since it only carries 1 and 0. However, an Ethernet cable carries an analog signal that represents 1 and 0. The cable can degrade that signal, and jitter can be introduced as the receiver turns that analog signal back into 1 and 0. The CRC might be correct, but jitter is now there.
The point is, with music, everything can affect the sound.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
txcoastal1 wrote: »This brings up a thought I've had the past few days... 1s and 0s... Aside from bit errors, there is no noise or color or any other esoteric sensation that can be imparted into a 1 or 0 (on and off). So goes the big question of the day: how can a cable between a digital source and a digital receiver change the sound? Especially Toslink (optical) cables...
TOSLINK is the worst conversion for jitter
There are power supplies for these conversion that cause noise....not all about 1's and 0's
Oh, then the noise is already in the signal path... Even before the cable. But what makes it so bad as compared to say USB or other copper based connection? -
txcoastal1 wrote: »This brings up a thought I've had the past few days... 1s and 0s... Aside from bit errors, there is no noise or color or any other esoteric sensation that can be imparted into a 1 or 0 (on and off). So goes the big question of the day: how can a cable between a digital source and a digital receiver change the sound? Especially Toslink (optical) cables...
TOSLINK is the worst conversion for jitter
There are power supplies for these conversion that cause noise....not all about 1's and 0's
Oh, then the noise is already in the signal path... Even before the cable. But what makes it so bad as compared to say USB or other copper based connection?
Not all toslink cables are the same many variables with ends and the fiber part itself. Glass is best but many are now plastic instead. You are new here many years ago some very brilliant minds with very powerful equipment to measure proved 1's and 0's can indeed be different. Jitter is just one the way the packets are sent is another.
It's not just ones and zeros. The dac conversion is another or all CD players would sound the same right CD's are just ones and zeros. Usb cables also need power some better cables are now putting the power leg in a seperate cable outside the ons and zero cable to keep the ones and zeros from being corrupted. -
Fiber can handle huge bandwidths, but there are issues with common "TOSLINK".
Even if you don't buy time delay as light entering multimode fiber can take different paths, the use of cheap optical converters can add noise and errors the dac must deal with.
Regarding HD noise, my Sonore music server uses a SOtM SATA Ripple & RF noise filter. My server is fanless and I don't hear any noise from my server or with my digital music. A 6TB SSD drive would be cost prohibitive for me at this time so I use a WD Red 6TB NAS drive.
The drive is encased in a thick aluminum housing with silicone rubber dots.
https://quietpc.co.uk/images/products/sotm-sata-noise-filter.jpg
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
I was thinking that streaming a signal over the air opens up all kinds of possibilities to the introduction of noise. But I don't have to buy anything to use that option, I think.
-
I would agree, it's rather difficult to transmit a square wave through the air, and unless you're surrounded by a Faraday cage, your wireless signal isn't the only one floating around.
-
afterburnt wrote: »I was thinking that streaming a signal over the air opens up all kinds of possibilities to the introduction of noise. But I don't have to buy anything to use that option, I think.
Streaming meaning "Digital internet music", or something else?
Over the air meaning....antenna to antenna? -
This brings up a thought I've had the past few days... 1s and 0s... Aside from bit errors, there is no noise or color or any other esoteric sensation that can be imparted into a 1 or 0 (on and off). So goes the big question of the day: how can a cable between a digital source and a digital receiver change the sound? Especially Toslink (optical) cables...
Do a search, this has been debated ad nauseum too many times. No need to rehash this subject when the debates are already clearly in the archives.
H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
@DSkip I wonder if there's been a study on the insertion of "noise" via wireless transmission vs that of a well insulated physical connection... And to wit, how much variation between the two.
I know there would be significant variation between transmission and reception equipment on their own as far as noise insertion, so I would surmise that the measurement of the amount of noise inserted between the the transmitter and receiver would be difficult as best. -
Back to the original post: I'm no expert, but it has been my experience that DLNA gives the "cleanest" sound (least electrical noise). YMMV. I don't think I will ever go back to any usb or hdmi implementation for music. I originally experimented with DLNA using a Marantz 8801 as a renderer and JRiver as the server program. I noticed an immediate improvement in clarity. Here's the kicker; JRiver was transcoding the files to high bitrate mp3. Sound improved even more after I found the error and set JRiver to stream wav. Currently using a Sonore Signature Rendu, but had a good experience with SoTM as well.
-
DLNA. I don't see how an NAS in a separate room through the Wireless access point, over AC wireless would add a spec of noise to the output. Its a stream of 1s and 0s with error correction until it gets to the DAC section. Any noise injected would be after/through the DAC portion of the signal path.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
-
At this point with digital music there are still a lot of unknowns in what affects the final sound. For example, I use a direct attached USB drive to my music server. After I ran out of room on a Toshiba 500GB drive, I copied every thing over to a Toshiba 1000GB hard drive. The 1TB drive sounded better than the 500GB drive. LOL.
Was it the drive? Was it the cable that comes with the drive? Was it both together? I certainly wasn't expecting that result, so I doubt if it was imaginary.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
1KVA Dreadnought
Marantz SA 8005
Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
Sony PS4
Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video
"All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER" -
At this point with digital music there are still a lot of unknowns in what affects the final sound. For example, I use a direct attached USB drive to my music server. After I ran out of room on a Toshiba 500GB drive, I copied every thing over to a Toshiba 1000GB hard drive. The 1TB drive sounded better than the 500GB drive. LOL.
Was it the drive? Was it the cable that comes with the drive? Was it both together? I certainly wasn't expecting that result, so I doubt if it was imaginary.
I think its perception more than anything. As DK has stated repeatedly about digital, it is a simplified analog signal. If one can view this digital end as a chain of analog devices, it becomes much clearer why EVERYTHING in the chain matters, even the streamer and the cables that are used with it. I think most focus on the file itself and not the chain of components.
Bingo Skip, most like to think of digital as a collection of 1's and 0's. Soo much more to it than that.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
DNLA uses an antenna therefore no shielding. Is it then not subjecject to picking up any and all background noise such as: EMI, Gamma rays, pigeon scat or flatulence?
-
afterburnt wrote: »Also, do you think an SSD is superior to a spinny HD in general?
It depends on a variety of factors, such as:
1. The mechanical damping in the disk drive.
2. The electrical noise characteristics of the SSD or HD controller (very important).
3. The storage topology of the SSD, (2D vs. 3D) and size of the SSD's memory cells. The smaller the cell size, the greater the potential for increase in electrical noise.
4. Speed, size, number of platters in the HD.
With my Bryston BDP-2 digital player, I went from an internal Samsung SSD to an external HD because music from the HD sounded better.
Reference:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/176485/the-sound-of-hard-drive-enclosures/p1Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
@DarqueKnight where do I find all of these numbers?
-
Samsung provides specs and a lot of technical information on their SSD's. Other SSD and HD manufacturers are more secretive.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
-
DarqueKnight wrote: »It depends on a variety of factors, such as:
1. The mechanical damping in the disk drive.
Don't HDD's have CACHE. 32MB is common and on Hybrid HDD's 8GB is common.
Now you have Intel Optane.DarqueKnight wrote: »3. The electrical noise characteristics of the SSD or HD controller (very important).
With the fetch operation not being realtime and being very burst in nature.
5. The storage topology of the SSD, (2D vs. 3D) and size of the SSD's memory cells. The smaller the cell size, the greater the potential for increase in electrical noise.
6. Speed, size, number of platters in the HD.
With my Bryston BDP-2 digital player, I went from an internal Samsung SSD to an external HD because music from the HD sounded better.
Reference:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/176485/the-sound-of-hard-drive-enclosures/p1
I wonder what this looks like if one creates a silent .wav and plays this back and captures the output into an ADC with ARTA.
You could always get a NAS that supports iSCSI and a NIC as well and do diskless workstation.
-
Man, it sucks I am so paranoid. I have one HD that seems to sound better outside of the internal SSD (too small to hold everything) so I move it back and forth between my systems. I actually have everything backed up on a NAS and like three other portable HD's. I do know that the one that travels with me sounds worse than the home version. I never play from the other ones, I just make sure they are up to date. Hell, it keeps me off the street.
