Thoughts on SDA's...
Comments
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I thought that was still the case but figured it couldn't hurt to ask. That should really bring this place back to life -When and if it happens.SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
1000VA Dreadnought
Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans
RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605 -
Various posts in this thread talk about the creation of recordings by recording multiple tracks that an engineer finally puts together to produce the music you hear on your system from your CD or other medium.
Some of my favorite contemporary recordings come from David Chesky, who attempts to record music as it is actually performed by real artists in a performance setting.
In his liner notes, he often includes a diagram of the locations of performers on stage or in studio while they were being recorded. I have found that these recordings provide an apparently real and palpable rendering of the ensemble in performance as I listen on my systems that have SDA speakers.
One good example, to which I have referred in other threads, is "Cobb's Corner" by the Jimmy Cobb Quartet on the Chesky Records label.
If you want a good example of the realistic rendering of a well recorded quartet on a stereo system along with documentation of the "sound stage," give "Cobb's Corner" a listen and see whether your system renders the quartet as Chesky describes it in his notes.
Yes, engineers were still involved, but Chesky's recording methods attempt to present the experience of a live performance.Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
Sorry, I do not.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »
That is what got me wondering about the SDA effect also.
I totally get the "real world" concert setting and how it could work better, but it loses me totally with studio created music, which never had any true imaging to begin with.
This is a great point about the in studio music creation process. The recording engineer(s) are as important to the end product as are the artists. They assemble various aspects of a music track, including levels and placement in the final mix "sound stage." Claiming that any brand of speakers does better at giving a "live" performance effect when the performance is an artificial in studio creation is a bit ridiculous.
Good for Polk that they have built speakers and powered subs that work great in and are designed for different size listening rooms. But even with the largest of SDA speakers placed in 400 plus sq ft rooms playing a studio mastered "live" performance, this still falls far short of going to a live concert. The Cal Jam concert at the Ontario speedway comes to mind. That event covered many acres of property with close to a half million people in attendance. The best these live recordings do is give a flavor of the event.
Missed this one bro...
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That is what got me wondering about the SDA effect also.
I totally get the "real world" concert setting and how it could work better, but it loses me totally with studio created music, which never had any true imaging to begin with.
Here's some run of the mill recording engineering and gear developed my just run of the mill people
https://youtu.be/479ybdkWeFs 2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
I don't understand this fixation on the casual mention of something to the effect of "reproduction close to a live recording". Aside from instrument-only/singer performances in small, intimate environments and performance recordings like those Moosebash mentions above, surely I can't be the only one who thinks concert audio generally sucks, and isn't really something to aspire to capturing in a recording?
To me, studio recordings are actually preferable, unless it's something like the aforementioned, or simply a matter of being at a concert to see an artist perform for the energy of a live performance. It sure as heck isn't for the sound quality, detail, and clarity or any number of other refinements that were able to enjoy in intimate performance settings, or good studio recordings.
Something like either of the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions/Trinity Revisited would be an example of an exception, a 'concert' environment conducive to both enjoyment of live performance and 'studio recording'.I disabled signatures. -
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ken brydson wrote: »DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »
That is what got me wondering about the SDA effect also.
I totally get the "real world" concert setting and how it could work better, but it loses me totally with studio created music, which never had any true imaging to begin with.
This is a great point about the in studio music creation process. The recording engineer(s) are as important to the end product as are the artists. They assemble various aspects of a music track, including levels and placement in the final mix "sound stage." Claiming that any brand of speakers does better at giving a "live" performance effect when the performance is an artificial in studio creation is a bit ridiculous.
Good for Polk that they have built speakers and powered subs that work great in and are designed for different size listening rooms. But even with the largest of SDA speakers placed in 400 plus sq ft rooms playing a studio mastered "live" performance, this still falls far short of going to a live concert. The Cal Jam concert at the Ontario speedway comes to mind. That event covered many acres of property with close to a half million people in attendance. The best these live recordings do is give a flavor of the event.
Missed this one bro...
One could add this as well...
Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
Why are you lost? SDA has the effect ability of rendering ordinary, studio-created recordings into extraordinary sound images.That is what got me wondering about the SDA effect also.
I totally get the "real world" concert setting and how it could work better, but it loses me totally with studio created music, which never had any true imaging to begin with.
You said earlier that you loved your 3.1s, yet still continue to wonder about the "SDA effect", so which is it?
IF you are asking seriously........
Some things sound great, and some not so great to me.
I guess I will repeat what I wrote again, assuming you did not read what I said the first 5 times...lol
In real life concert events or a group playing live in a studio all at once, it makes sense, but MOST music is not something that had an actual stereo soundstage to begin with, but simply multitracks of elements of a song combined together, and the "soundstage", is created electronically in the mixing stage, not from the actual acoustic space of all the players being in one room all at once. -
I don't understand this fixation on the casual mention of something to the effect of "reproduction close to a live recording". Aside from instrument-only/singer performances in small, intimate environments and performance recordings like those Moosebash mentions above, surely I can't be the only one who thinks concert audio generally sucks, and isn't really something to aspire to capturing in a recording?
To me, studio recordings are actually preferable, unless it's something like the aforementioned, or simply a matter of being at a concert to see an artist perform for the energy of a live performance. It sure as heck isn't for the sound quality, detail, and clarity or any number of other refinements that were able to enjoy in intimate performance settings, or good studio recordings.
Something like either of the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions/Trinity Revisited would be an example of an exception, a 'concert' environment conducive to both enjoyment of live performance and 'studio recording'.
@msg,
I agree that "concert audio generally sucks," if you are referring to the heavily amplified, reverberated, etc., "audio" at rock concerts, which generally are also so loud as to be unbearable for me, at least since my youth in the 1960s.
On the other hand, ballets, operas, and orchestra concerts are a different experience. The sound quality of top-tier performances cannot be matched by recordings or stereo systems -- at least any that I have encountered to date.
My family room system with the SDA SRS 1.2tls for which Trey modded the crossovers does an excellent job of rendering, for example, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's recordings of Beethoven's nine symphonies, but having experienced some of the live performances Sir Georg Solti conducted in the 1970s, I realize that my stereo system, as good as it is, cannot produce an experience equal to those of the live performances.Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
'She's trying to be a contrarian, just like always. She changes her "tune" all the time just to state the opposite of what's being discussed. I see the pattern too, it's not difficult to understand why she posts.
H9
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She's trying to be a contrarian, just like always. She changes her "tune" all the time just to state the opposite of what's being discussed. I see the pattern too, it's not difficult to understand why she posts.
H9
@KenCustomerService
This is the trollish personal type of comments often made, and do not even discuss the subject of SDA speakers.
The topic is "Thoughts on SDA's...." -
DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »Unless the the artist/band go into a studio and their group session is recorded as if it was during a live concert, the music produced is less than a performance and more of a patchwork quilt concoction sewn together by recording engineers. These engineers manipulate the end product to their own designs. No wonder live performance so often sound very dissimilar to studio recorded engineer concoctions.
There is a Led Zeppelin cover band "Get the Led Out" which I have seen numerous times. They say their goal is to play Zeppelin just like the studio recordings (and they do). The only thing is it takes 6 or more of them to get it to sound like the recordings. Until I watched them play I would have never have guessed a rock band like Zeppelin was so mixed and overdubbed.
Remember in "Whole Lotta Love" the "WHAAAAAAA" with a slide? Ever wonder how Jimi Page could play that and still be jamming with his guitar? Hint: When its played by Get the Led Out they need two guitarists.
"Fool in the Rain" took 8-10 people (one just playing the whistle)
Nothing wrong with the way they master and overdub recordings if it is done right. Look at Pink Floyds The Wall and Wish you Were Here. Classic recordings that can raise the hairs on your neck thru a good system. You are constantly looking at one speaker or the other listening to where the sounds are coming from and it sounds great.
But it is not "true" imaging. That said....... I wouldn't change a thing!
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She's trying to be a contrarian, just like always. She changes her "tune" all the time just to state the opposite of what's being discussed. I see the pattern too, it's not difficult to understand why she posts.
H9
@KenCustomerService
This is the trollish personal type of comments often made, and do not even discuss the subject of SDA speakers.
The topic is "Thoughts on SDA's...."
Not trolling at all. Just an observation, I have noticed in your posts, especially to a handful of members."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
And why I think Ken will be very interested in this thread tomorrow morning...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
She's trying to be a contrarian, just like always. She changes her "tune" all the time just to state the opposite of what's being discussed. I see the pattern too, it's not difficult to understand why she posts.
H9
@KenCustomerService
This is the trollish personal type of comments often made, and do not even discuss the subject of SDA speakers.
The topic is "Thoughts on SDA's...."
Not accurate at all, pointing out what has been observed from you and your posts. Always trying to get something started, especially if SDA's or cables are involved.
Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
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My question is why does it matter if the sound stage is the result of recording musicians as they play, or is created by an engineer. It is still a sound stage either way.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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Three 20 amp circuits. -
IF you are asking seriously........
Some things sound great, and some not so great to me.
I guess I will repeat what I wrote again, assuming you did not read what I said the first 5 times...lol
In real life concert events or a group playing live in a studio all at once, it makes sense, but MOST music is not something that had an actual stereo soundstage to begin with, but simply multitracks of elements of a song combined together, and the "soundstage", is created electronically in the mixing stage, not from the actual acoustic space of all the players being in one room all at once.
YES, I was asking seriously.
And your explanation now has ME lost. Maybe if you explain it once more, I can grasp
what you're trying to say.
On second thought, never mind. I think I will go listen to some Steely Dan on my SDAs, maybe after awhile I can find myself...
So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
There is actually lots of good info in this thread for Polk on future product ideas, even if some of it is based on somewhat faulty logic. Everybody's opinion is important in the audio business. After all, SDA technology was not embraced universally by audiophiles in the 1980s. Some thought it was a gimmick. Others were stunned and no other company had an equivalent product. I was a college kid and couldn't afford anything like Polk speakers by myself back then.
Regarding the faulty logic on display, I haven't seen where anyone has claimed that SDA speakers can take a stereo recording and turn it into the equal of a live event. Or that the sounds of a studio recording are not manipulated by a mastering engineer before an album is released. Raising these contentions, even if misplaced in this and other threads, may seem to be like arguing just for the sake of arguing but they certainly are not new ideas first occurring in 2017.
Polk is still using the ideas of SDA today in some of its products where the goal is to produce a more spacious sound than is possible with a single sound bar type speaker system. I'd like to see more of this, even if the current implementation of SDA is in some ways an electronically generated effect through a DSP rather than a simple acoustic approach used in the original implementations. The DSP approach may even be better! -
The topic is "Thoughts on SDA's...."
Something we agree on. This thread was about helping someone understand differences between SDA models. Until you hijacked it with the same old arguments trying to start something...again.SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
1000VA Dreadnought
Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans
RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605 -
Yes, this exactly, agreed on all points, albeit with my limited experience of those types of live performances - orchestral and such - as well as for upper tier sound systems.
And yes, with your system build, I think that's saying something re: the quality of those types of performances you're reflecting on in comparison to recordings of them.Moose68Bash wrote: »@msg,
I agree that "concert audio generally sucks," if you are referring to the heavily amplified, reverberated, etc., "audio" at rock concerts, which generally are also so loud as to be unbearable for me, at least since my youth in the 1960s.
On the other hand, ballets, operas, and orchestra concerts are a different experience. The sound quality of top-tier performances cannot be matched by recordings or stereo systems -- at least any that I have encountered to date.
My family room system with the SDA SRS 1.2tls for which Trey modded the crossovers does an excellent job of rendering, for example, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's recordings of Beethoven's nine symphonies, but having experienced some of the live performances Sir Georg Solti conducted in the 1970s, I realize that my stereo system, as good as it is, cannot produce an experience equal to those of the live performances.I disabled signatures. -
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How about this. A farmer has a grove of green apple trees. The best tasting green apples on the east coast and he is proud of every crop every season. Lots of folks buy them because they are the tastiest green apples ever.
His neighbor in the next valley over has a grove of the sweetest, most recipe ready red apples. She takes pride in her trees every season. She has cultivated an apple that the finest bakeries in the world want.
They have both produced a similar product that their customers want.
Just a different flavor of the same basis.
Producers of music are farmers of sound. Cultivating a flavor. That Granny Smith is a humdinger of an apple. That Washington Red is a stellar apple.
They are apples, they taste different. But both of those farmers grew them to give them to you to enjoy.
No matter what kind of plate they are presented on.
Shut up and move on. -
Or.....I will resort to posting hotdog gifs and pointless drivel that I am associated with.
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I wish I could use all multiple emoti votes on that.I disabled signatures.
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Except the flag one Scott. A major beatdown will be delivered.
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