Spikes for 1.2tls

stones89

F1nut said “round headed bolt would be a very poor idea, IMO.

Obviously you have never tried them but have concluded in your own mind they are a bad idea....nice advice.

leftwinger57

I completely understand what Shurkey said about it mostly being for carpets and stabilizing them from shifting but it worked for me on hard wood floors. Before I added the spikes the bass would travel through the floor joists and right up into the couch in somewhat unnatural way. The spikes allowed the bass to come directly from the speakers themselves as you would want it. Once you have your position down and marked the spots w/ some help they can be placed w/o damage to the floors and I have 2Bs not the giant 1.2tl.

Toolfan66

Those speakers on the little round disks are perfect, no need to over think it beyond what you have.

And in my opinion the round headed bolts will still put dimples in the flooring, and look like cr@p compared to the spikes ..

Looks fantastic!!! Nice job, Nice rig!!!!

stones89

Look like crap? Mine don’t. Also, not the first thing you look for when you walk into the room. Fidelity first, decorate second.

Gerres26

stones89 wrote: »

Look like crap? Mine don’t. Also, not the first thing you look for when you walk into the room. Fidelity first, decorate second.

Could you post some pics? Just curious on how they look. Thanks

pitdogg2

Gerres26 wrote: »

stones89 wrote: »

Look like crap? Mine don’t. Also, not the first thing you look for when you walk into the room. Fidelity first, decorate second.

Could you post some pics? Just curious on how they look. Thanks

yes I would like to also see

msg

me also, tambien.
y tengo un gato en mi pantalones.

stones89

Best I can do with an I-pad. Hope you can see.

F1nut

stones89 wrote: »

F1nut said “round headed bolt would be a very poor idea, IMO.

Obviously you have never tried them but have concluded in your own mind they are a bad idea....nice advice.

Obviously, you have no idea what you're talking about recommending them, which isn't surprising considering you prefer your speakers with the SDA disabled. Round objects move, exactly what you don't want happening to your speakers.

Gerres26

Not sure why'd you run those speakers without the SDA connected? You look to have a lot of nice gear(much better than mine) and not allowing the speakers to do what they do best just doesn't make sense to me. When I had to move my 1.2tls to the room they are in now I originally forgot to attach the SDA cable and the soundstage and imaging was very lackluster compared to when they are connected properly.

Toolfan66

Nice Room Stones89..

msg

Woh, yeah, that is a nice room.
But really? No SDA? Interesting. Does it not affect the speaker balance, as well?

Interesting on the movement. I'd not have considered that.

So, re: disks then, would it also hold true that something sticky-bottomed (rubbery) would be better than something felt-bottomed? So as to minimize movement in cases where disks are used?

stones89

Thanks Larry. My wife was after me for years to do it and I am glad I finally did. Maybe she thought she would see less of me!

Gerres126, I find the cable to tip up the upper midrange and add a phasey-ness that actually make the speakers sound out of phase and the soundstage presence more diffuse. I am not a pinpoint image guy but I like the soundstage and imaging slightly more specific versus diffuse. The cable also moves the soundstage forward, and flattens it. I prefer it behind the plane. Finally, I do not like speakers near room boundaries and the bass in my room is extremely good where they are placed.

Dskip, I tried that once. It hardened up the sound. I think MP had to come up with that strategy for “tip” safety purposes.

F1nut, sorry it doesn’t meet your criteria, take a chill pill. It’s only a stereo. And the rounded spikes for work for me and apparently R. Vandersteen - that’s not the end of the world either. How about some pix of your system?

Schurkey

Track bolts, from the Fastenal website.
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/1129808?term=track+bolts&r=~|categoryl1:"600000 Fasteners"|~ ~|categoryl2:"600001 Bolts"|~ ~|categoryl3:"604254 Track Bolts"|~

I figured they were going to turn out to be carriage bolts, which have a similar round head, but a square under-head instead of the ribs or splines of the track bolts. Either one is probably "ok" but neither is something I would have thought to use. "I" would grind a flat on the part of the bolt head that contacts the floor. 3/8" diameter should be fine. Maybe 1/4".

Polk supplied plastic feet. They had enough surface area to not dent hardwood floors, too much to pierce carpet. Being nylon or some other "plastic", I suppose they wouldn't mar hardwood if you slid the speakers over the floor to reposition them. I doubt the speakers would move on their own unless the floor wasn't level to begin with. They were cheap, simple, easy. Biggest single drawback on hard flooring was total lack of adjustment. If the floor wasn't level, the speakers could rock like a table at a cheap restaurant.

Anything that mimics the original plastic feet (but preferably with some height adjustment) should work fine on hardwood, concrete, and other "hard" surfaces.

Spikes 'n' discs will not work better than a "spike" with the point "cut off" so the floor contact is nearly the same diameter as the disc. Far as I know, nobody sells such a product. No romance, no media buzz.

Don't get me wrong--I'm NOT opposed to spikes on carpet. I'm opposed to thinking that spikes and discs are somehow better than a blunt foot of the same height, and same diameter of the disc, when used on hard floors. My expectation is that the one-piece blunt foot will be better than the two-piece spike and disc.



When I made spikes for my 1Bs, I bought six (three per speaker cabinet) 1/4" steel bolts, cut the heads off, sharpened the end on the bench grinder. Put threaded steel inserts into the speaker bases, and then locked each of the spikes in place with a nut. Those spikes are long enough to pierce the carpet (no pad) yet are entirely invisible on casual inspection. You'd think the speakers are resting on their bases. Because the spikes are "invisible", it doesn't matter that they aren't pretty.

I have my labor and somewhere under five dollars in the whole works. Of course, I had to own a hacksaw, a vice, a bench-grinder, a cup of water for cooling, electric drill and drill bit, gloves, a level, and a wrench to make it all work. The "infrastructure" was far in excess of $60.

[Deleted User]

Round end spikes sitting on a hard flat surface has very little contact patch and work well. Much like Sound Anchor stands using steel balls between them and the speaker cabinet. I don't think ball end spikes in a heavy speaker sitting on a hard wood floor would be a great idea. It would probably put dents into the wood increasing the contact patches. Probably piss the wife off too.
Pointed spikes or small diameter round end spikes sitting on discs is the way for wood floors. Carriage bolts ground flat makes no sense to me. Just increasing the contact patches. Bass braces also make zero sense to me. They're for the speakers that failed the tip over tests so Polk didn't get into trouble. Not for better sound.

machone

The reason for spikes is to anchor the speaker to the floor. The spikes should penetrate the floor locking the speaker in place so it can not move. Bass notes cause the speaker cabinet to move back and forth. This back and forth movement can reek havoc on imaging and bass reproduction.

lawdogg

Hanger bolts would work better and cause even more uproar, a win-win http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/172908/budget-spikes-spike-your-sdas-for-under-3/p1

sbb2112

Like I said earlier in this same thread. Spike em direct to the floor. No movement and dead solid bass and imaging. I have the disks to get the sound right but just use them for hitting the sweet spot and remove them. They do move around otherwise.

Gerres26

sbb2112 wrote: »

Like I said earlier in this same thread. Spike em direct to the floor. No movement and dead solid bass and imaging. I have the disks to get the sound right but just use them for hitting the sweet spot and remove them. They do move around otherwise.

Yea, only if you want holes in your hardwood floors which isn't an option for some of us.

machone

Little tiny holes

Gerres26

machone wrote: »

Little tiny holes

Lol, yea not happening

motorstereo

I get the fear of possibly damaging the floor but spiking makes such a difference it's worth the risk to me. There's also other ways to do it as well so there isn't any damage. This is what I did for my 1.2tl's and the 2.3's that they replaced. Those old table tops are secured to the floor and take the brunt of the damage when it's time to move the sda's. They've been moved around a fair amount and the damage still isn't all that noticeable imo. I also had a pair of Khorus Talons years ago with huge spikes that I used on my hardwood living room floor. The Talons are gone now and I'd be hard pressed to locate those tiny indentations where they sat on spikes for several months. I'd be much more worried about high heeled shoes than those hard to see spots where the spikes sat.

[Deleted User]

machone wrote: »

The reason for spikes is to anchor the speaker to the floor. The spikes should penetrate the floor locking the speaker in place so it can not move. Bass notes cause the speaker cabinet to move back and forth. This back and forth movement can reek havoc on imaging and bass reproduction.

From what I've been taught from some local audio engineers over the years is that spikes or balls under the cabinet is to prevent low frequency energy from going into floor. People usually say the bass "tightened up" after adding spikes. Then they're only hearing the bass notes coming from the speaker to their ears. Not a second time as it radiates through the floor and walls to your ears.
We just moved into a new house that's almost all hard wood so I'm having to deal with this crap too. One of the rooms has tall Sound Anchor stands with spikes sitting on discs under them and steel balls on top for the cabinets to sit on. Bottom of cabinets have a sheet of aluminum mounted to them so the wood can't dent in around the balls and increase the contact patch. My Vandersteens are the same set up, just a lot shorter and no steel or aluminum between the cabinet and balls. Sound Anchor definitely believes in preventing energy getting into the stands and down to the floor. As they've said, anything being lost into the floor is energy that's not getting from the speaker to your ears.
If you're having a problem with cone motion flexing the baffle so much it's causing the cabinet to actually move around the floor you can simply use spikes on discs. Tiny indent in center of disc for the spike to sit in and sheet rubber cut to size and glued to the underside of the discs so they will stay put on the wood floor.

Toolfan66

To each his own, but IMO a set of spikes are worth the investment...

machone

Not talking about flexing the baffle. I am talking about moving the whole cabinet. Spikes anchor the cabinet so it cannot move.
Gluing the discs to the floor is a good alternative but isn't the glue going to cause more damage to the floor than "little tiny holes"?

Viking64

I have an idea for an environment when damaging the floor wasn't a concern. Take a 1" thick piece of plywood and cut it so it is just a few inches larger than the footprint of the cabinet, sort of like a thin pedestal. Drill holes corresponding with the 4 large hurricane nuts on the bottom of the speaker. Drill larger concentric holes around those but only deep enough so the head of whatever bolts you might use to attach it to the bottom of the cabinet are flush (countersunk) with the bottom plane of the plywood. Once attached to the cabinet, move the speaker into desired position and then screw through the outer edges of the pedestal into the floor. Save for cosmetics, are there any potential issues with this set-up? It seems like a coupling of this type would increase bass response.

Schurkey

machone wrote: »

The reason for spikes is to anchor the speaker to the floor. The spikes should penetrate the floor locking the speaker in place so it can not move. Bass notes cause the speaker cabinet to move back and forth. This back and forth movement can reek havoc on imaging and bass reproduction.

Yes. We are trying to get the mass and rigidity of the floor to stabilize the speakers.

Slapaho wrote: »

From what I've been taught from some local audio engineers over the years is that spikes or balls under the cabinet is to prevent low frequency energy from going into floor. People usually say the bass "tightened up" after adding spikes. Then they're only hearing the bass notes coming from the speaker to their ears. Not a second time as it radiates through the floor and walls to your ears.

I think the mistake here is that it's not the floor that's audible and ****-up the sound, it's the speaker cabinet (as opposed to the speaker drivers.)

The sound doesn't "go into the floor and then cause audible smearing" in a meaningful way. That is to say that a wood floor, being more flexible than a concrete floor, probably does resonate some microscopic amount--but the resonant frequency is so low as to be nearly insignificant. Yeah, concrete would be better.

The floor is used as a "rigid" and inertial plane that stabilizes the speaker cabinet. When the speaker is properly coupled to the floor, the movement of the speaker cabinet doesn't screw-up the sound of the speaker drivers.

Slapaho wrote: »

We just moved into a new house that's almost all hard wood so I'm having to deal with this crap too. One of the rooms has tall Sound Anchor stands with spikes sitting on discs under them and steel balls on top for the cabinets to sit on. Bottom of cabinets have a sheet of aluminum mounted to them so the wood can't dent in around the balls and increase the contact patch. My Vandersteens are the same set up, just a lot shorter and no steel or aluminum between the cabinet and balls. Sound Anchor definitely believes in preventing energy getting into the stands and down to the floor. As they've said, anything being lost into the floor is energy that's not getting from the speaker to your ears.

The reasonably-efficient coupling of speaker cabinet to floor allows the energy that would be vibrating the cabinet, smearing the sound is instead being absorbed by the floor.

Slapaho wrote: »

If you're having a problem with cone motion flexing the baffle so much it's causing the cabinet to actually move around the floor you can simply use spikes on discs. Tiny indent in center of disc for the spike to sit in and sheet rubber cut to size and glued to the underside of the discs so they will stay put on the wood floor.

.
Not a matter of flexing the baffle, as it is of Newton's Laws--every action having an equal but opposite reaction. In this case, the voice coil and cone pushing against the air causes the cabinet to vibrate in the opposite direction. Of course, the cabinet has more mass so it doesn't vibrate as far.

Coupling the speaker cabinet to the floor is essentially "grounding" that speaker-cabinet energy, and dissipating it via the mass of the floor construction. Every "connection" between the cabinet and the floor adds a tiny bit of "resistance" to the flow of that energy. Carpet is terrible. Cabinet to aluminum plate to steel balls to speaker stand to spikes to discs is imperfect but apparently adequate. (I have some doubts...) Cabinet to spikes to discs to floor is similarly not optimum. Cabinet to spikes or feet, to floor is about as good as it gets. Cabinet directly on the floor has lower loading-per-square-inch than feet or spikes, so it doesn't work as well as spikes or feet.

Adding felt or rubber to the bottom of the discs de-couples the speaker from the floor even more, making the problem worse. Now the speaker cabinets can vibrate on the pad, and the floor can't absorb the vibration of the cabinet. Might as well put the cabinet on the carpet.

Schurkey

Awwww, crap. Had a long reply posted, and screwed it up with a mistake during an edit.