The LP Lover's thread...

treitz3

Hello all and good Saturday morning to you! This thread is dedicated to those that love everything Vinyl. I personally appreciate all modern music mediums with the exception of the gramophone**, MP3 and 8 track but vinyl (to me) and many more folks around the globe holds something special.

Below is a link to one of the better (if not the best) article I have ran across that gives a great low-down on the history of vinyl, why it sounds different, tips, focusing on music and what is true lossless (that one could open up a debate with the digital guys). Not only that, for you vinyl lover's, there is a link to the Top 20 online vinyl shops.

https://www.musicinstrumentscenter.com/what-are-the-beautiful-secrets-behind-the-vinyl-records/

If you have ever wondered about venturing into the realms of vinyl but have reservations, this article could help to clear the way and help you to understand a few things that perhaps you have read about or heard from time to time but never really put together.

I invite anyone and everyone who uses vinyl and wishes to either share information or learn the information/experiences provided to chime into the thread and add to the discussion. For now, this article should start us off in the right direction.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to a cordial discussion. Have a great weekend and most importantly, Happy Listening!

Tom

**The sound, not the invention. I can appreciate the fact that it brought us to the sound we all enjoy today.

mhardy6647

Glad to see this thread -- I have nothing of substance to add (imagine that?!) but I will cogitate and chime in if I can cobble up something profound or interesting to say.

I still think that the resolution of analog records, and photographic film (for that matter) cannot be beat.

motorhead43026

Analog is my favorite, I love vinyl. Those that agree with me get it, those that don't I refuse to argue.

Thanks for the thread.

SCompRacer

I've never been out of vinyl. Only thing that has changed is my investment in it.

Vinyl playback has only one filter, the RIAA equalization. If you are not familiar with it, you can read about it on wiki. That standard was implemented in '54. Before that, record companies applied their own EQ. Before that standard, there were over 100 different combinations of equalization you could encounter. Needless to say, if the recording and playback EQ were not matched, you were not going to achieve the best sound quality.

Like anything audio related, you can even go deeper into RIAA if you are so inclined. Quality of parts, where its placed in the circuit, active or passive, etc. For instance, my Bottlehead Eros phono pre has a passive RIAA between the first and second gain stage. Or you can just drop the needle and enjoy.

The digital process creates nasty artifacts that must be filtered out. It can be done very, very well but requires much more handling.

Anyway, it's nice to see the vinyl 'fad' continuing to grow. And I know Mr. Hardy can contribute much more.

mhardy6647

Passive RIAA EQ (i.e., an R-C network) is the way to go, I think most "knowledgeable" folks would agree.

Oh, as an aside. The one piece of soiled state equipment that I use regularly is... a phono preamp.

I never left vinyl, either (FWIW) -- although I did back way off in my use of it (them little polycarbonate discs, and players with truly random-access remote controls, were just too convenient).

SCompRacer

mhardy6647 wrote: »

-- although I did back way off in my use of it (them little polycarbonate discs, and players with truly random-access remote controls, were just too convenient).

Guilty here as well...but unlike some of my friends, I never got rid of my records or turntable. Unlike Ray Lomas, they sold their souls straight down the line.....

mhardy6647

I don't have my very first "hifi" turntable (a Philips GA-308, bought used) but I do have my very second one (a Philips AF-877), purchased new ca. 1979.

The GA-308, a very cool little tt similar to but nicer than the later GA-427, unfortunately succumbed to years of poor storage conditions in my parents basement. It was beyond rescue when we went through everything in the house some years back.

treitz3

I only have a Music Hall MMF-5 with the stock Grado cartridge and a Jolida JD-9 MKII phono pre, so my vinyl isn't up to snuff to some around here or elsewhere. In the past 5 or so years, I have ignored my vinyl rig and concentrated on other aspects of my rig to get it to where I would like it to be. Now that I have arrived to where I want to be on the other aspects (with a plan already in place for other things I will acquire or install for my rig), I want to concentrate once again on my vinyl rig.

I have the NG dual sided RCM and some steam cleaners (which I swear by) and that gets rid of anywhere between 90-95% of all of the snaps, crackle and pops. Those that remain are severely lower in db level. So with what I have in the vinyl setup, while not worldly, does sound quite good to very good. It's nowhere near the level of my digital rig but even at both of the levels where they currently stand, I still prefer vinyl.

There is just something more "organic" or "pure" about it that these ears really like. I can only imagine what the vinyl rig will sound like once I have reached the level my digital rig is at. I haven't really taken the time yet to really set up the TT like I should, to which i am kind of embarrassed about that but it is what it is. It still sounds rather good and there are still aspects of the vinyl playback that even without the proper care and ultimate of tweaking to get everything out of the vinyl rig that I have, I still prefer vastly to any digital I have ran across to date.

Yes, there are some things I prefer about digital but that's for another thread. This is the vinyl lover's thread.

What I have done over the past 5 years I am proud of. I have doubled my LP collection. I purchased many pristine LP's from our own beloved George Grand, acquired many more from a member who had given up on vinyl (Thanks Jerry!) and purchased some select albums from Mo-Fi in 180g, blah, blah, blah that is still sealed.

When I have arrived at where I want to be with my vinyl rig, I will open up some of the more special sealed albums and compare them directly to the digital counterpart from the same companies, same Mo-Fi Edition that I am currently listening too.

I can tell you all right now that Donald Fagan's "Morph the Cat" Mo-Fi HPV 180g LP that was mastered by Steve Hoffman makes the digital counterpart (normal CD) sound lean and thin. Like there is much of the musical ambience that it simply just missing. Especially in the sweet spot. It's just a completely different presentation, even though it's the same album from Mr. Fagan.

For the next 5 years, I will concentrate way more on the vinyl rig than anything else in my rig. I will learn how to tweak it correctly. I will learn how to isolate the table as best as possible. I will learn how to properly set up the anti-skate and know what it means when I do so. I will learn what happens and how to listen when the azimuth is off. I will get the gear to properly test L to R channels at the needle, properly and to the nth degree, weigh the arm/needle where it hits the LP. I will find out the best way to get the correct speed and hone in on perfecting it. I will learn all of the other aspects (of which there are many) to get the best out of whatever vinyl rig I have at the time, including learning how to completely disassemble and reassemble the entire TT and I will know when I assemble it what will happen if I do something incorrectly.

Basically I will force myself to learn the things that I have read about and somewhat understand and I will become a master at all aspects of the vinyl reproductive effort so that I can achieve a reproductive effort I haven't yet experienced with vinyl in my own rig.

Why?...because if vinyl sounds this good to me with a lowly vinyl rig that isn't really tweaked to it's full potential compared to my completely tweaked, top notch digital rig?

One of these days, I need to make it up to hear our very own Mr. Swauger's LP rig. I've heard he has built his LP rig from his listening room all of the way down to his basement and tweaked a very fine LP rig it to it's fullest. If it sounds like what has been reported to me then so be it, I'll do the same thing. Whatever it takes and in the next 5 years, this will be my goal.

Instead of traveling the country looking for better gear, I'll be traveling the country listening and auditioning vinyl rigs, learning and listening to achieve my goal.

Tom

hochpt21

Is this a support group? Because I'm checking in as part of that group.

At this point my main rig is vinyl only. And my second rig is vinyl primarily.

I have fully bought into the process, the torture, the bliss, the headache, and the glory of it all.

I have no desire to have SQ wars with other formats because I'm not a hater on any of them.

But right now...I'm a vinyl guy.

motorhead43026

^^Tom, treat yourself to the 50 anniversary remastered Sgt Peppers's on vinyl. It is fabulous, being almost a religious experience. Well, to these old ears it is.

mikeyb128

Great idea for this thread. Vinyl doesn't seem to get too much love around here.

I have only been into the vinyl game the last 3 years, but it's been a speedy process, I've learnt a lot, and still have a lot more to learn. only recently I have been investing some serious coin in my vinyl rig, once I learned how good it can be. Everything I've bought is used, I couldn't afford to be where I'm at buying brand new.

It sounds so good! I love buying physical media, posters and little nic nacs hidden inside. TT's are like works of art, and I love the tinkering. It's turning into an addiction, I have to be careful.

txcoastal1

mikeyb128 wrote: »

Great idea for this thread. Vinyl doesn't seem to get too much love around here.

Jesse loves vinyl

halo

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Jesse loves vinyl

Don't Polk the Bear!

mikeyb128

txcoastal1 wrote: »

mikeyb128 wrote: »

Great idea for this thread. Vinyl doesn't seem to get too much love around here.

Jesse loves vinyl

Maybe Jesse hast heard a "proper vinyl rig"... oh sh$t! Ducks for cover. Just kidding, I know he has more experience than i can imagine.

SCompRacer

Here is a good read by a reputable manufacturer about turntable design and differences.

https://www.originlive.com/turntables-best-turntable.html

Good luck in you quest. I found mine in DIY. DIY requires research and planning so you don't build a problem. I use a custom larger than OEM stainless bearing machined to precise standards. I can only use a light Turbine oil in that bearing. I had an old Rega table 20 years ago. Bearing tolerances were sloppy and required a 'dollop' of 80 weight gear oil.

IIRC Ken has an air bearing platter on his table which requires a substantial air compressor. He has the compressor in the basement so he doesn't get the noise in his listening area.

I use an air bearing linear arm on my DIY Lenco idler drive. My compressor is also in basement. Folks without basements have built elaborate insulated chambers inside closets or large chests to suppress compressor noise. I don't need a large compressor for my arm.

A remote control key fob allows me to turn the compressor on at the turntable. The air line goes through the wall to a media plate (phone/cable TV/LAN). The air line plugs into a push lock fitting in the wall plate for a neat install.

Speed wise, I use a Phoenix Engineering 25 watt power supply with their RoadRunner tachometer. The tach provides feedback to the power supply to keep the idler driven platter at proper speed. I was affiliated with Bill Carlin of PE as beta tester for the 25 watt PS. IIRC he has retired and only supports his products, no longer manufacturing them. His design was superior and lower priced than some old go to designs. The neat thing is I don't have to change idler position to change speeds between 33 and 45. I just push a button.

He offered 6 watt, 15 watt and then 25 watt power supplies for turntables. My Lenco has a 21 watt motor. The cool thing was adding that speed control with tach to your belt drive table made the speed much more accurate and responsive to changes. You'd be surprised to see the speed differences with a belt drive with various drag on the stylus.

My go to speed checker is not an app. I prefer the KAB SpeedStrobe. KAB uses a 9v battery operated strobe so you don't get a strobe variance with the slight changes that can occur with your wall voltage. The disc is large with speed numbers instead of hypnotic lines close to one another. Again, you should measure speed with stylus in the groove.

There are some neat tools for setting up arms. A turntable with articulated armboard means you can easily swap different arms by loosening the pivot and adjusting the precise center of pivot to center of spindle dimension spec'd by manufacturer.

Pivoted arms require an overhang dimension. That is stylus position in relation to the center of spindle. Not all arms swing to spindle (like direct drives), thus we have to use protractors or head shell gauges instead of overhang gauges. It's all about math to reduce IGD or inner groove distortion. Three common IGD 'math' methods; Stevenson, Lofgren and Baerwald alignment.



My compressor and remote.



My air line at wall.



The Phoenix Engineering PS control and RoadRunner tach I use. The large PS is on rear of rack. Just push a button and I can change speed to 45RPM.



The works...my path to vinyl nirvana. YMMV. The lever at left changes idler position for 16, 33, 45 and 78 RPM. It just stays at 33 now as I have the speed control. I don't play 16 or 78's.



Why an idler with high torque motor? Maintain speed no matter what drag the groove imposes on the stylus.

The KAB SpeedStrobe.



My listening room has a suspended floor. Footfalls close to rack would travel into the rack legs causing skipping. The Ginkgo Cloud is the best isolation device I have used under my table. I can jump up and down next to rack and it does not skip now.

You vary the amount of control balls used based on table weight. More for heavy, less for lighter tables. I bought mine used as they are pricey. The top platform has a skirt that extends past the base so it can't roll off if bumped into.

mhardy6647

control balls...

schwarcw

Tom, if you roam the ends of the earth to hear the best vinyl rigs I suggest you go to Chicago and start with Rich's system. You will be hard pressed to find anything better sounding.

treitz3

Duly noted, Thanks. The closest I'll be to him in the near future would Be Cincinnati OH. Perhaps a weekend trip up there is in order.

Tom

mikeyb128

Just received my denon dl103 and have it all set up, will require a bit of tweaking.

Should it sound this good? I still have to tweak VTA a bit. Fresh out of the box this thing is fantastic!

mhardy6647

They've been in continuous production since 1962 for a reason. The DL-103, to me, defines "lush" presentation. Not the last word in anything, but darned musical
and easy to listen to.

Once you get used to its low compliance & high VTF, it's actually a pretty forgiving & well behaved cartridge (& stylus), too.

mikeyb128

Considering I have a cartridge worth about 5 times what the denon is worth, call me impressed.

I look forward to getting it tweaked and Some hours on it. I imagine it will only get better.

Inscrutabl0915

motorhead43026 wrote: »

^^Tom, treat yourself to the 50 anniversary remastered Sgt Peppers's on vinyl. It is fabulous, being almost a religious experience. Well, to these old ears it is.

So I take it you prefer the new stereo mix to the original mono mix? Giles (and his Dad) did such a great job with 'Love' that I am interested to hear what he did with this.

I have the original vinyl, and/but thinking of getting both the box set with CD versions of both and bluray 'making of', and also the double-disc vinyl (as my early ones probably got too much play on too feeble equipment). Wish they included a fresh vinyl pressing with the original mono mix.

[Deleted User]

I've had this TT for 38 years. The other day I compared a LP to Tidal Master and it was no contest to me or my wife. Much more involving.

mhardy6647

nbrowser wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

They've been in continuous production since 1962 for a reason. The DL-103, to me, defines "lush" presentation. Not the last word in anything, but darned musical
and easy to listen to.

Once you get used to its low compliance & high VTF, it's actually a pretty forgiving & well behaved cartridge (& stylus), too.

hrm wonder if I can mount a DL-103 on my Debut Carbon...

I don't think that would be an ideal combination -- something like the DL-301ii would be a better choice for that arm, I think. Heck, even the DL-103R might be a better choice.

The DL-103 is really meant for arms more along the lines of this

mikeyb128

Slumming it with the dl103. just look at this little fatty.

miner

I love to buy new LPs - I currently have 34 yet to listen to in the just cleaned holding bin. Recently bought an Audio Desk Systeme Pro and have been doing some recleans; previously had a Nitty Gritty MiniPro2.

StevieB

Older vinyl lover, still have my first album with maybe 700 in the collection. My modest system sounds pretty good for the money and it never gets old to dig out an oldie, clean it up, grab a brew and enjoy the music!

pumpkinman

motorhead43026 wrote: »

^^Tom, treat yourself to the 50 anniversary remastered Sgt Peppers's on vinyl. It is fabulous, being almost a religious experience. Well, to these old ears it is.

I was hesitant to buy Sgt. Peppers once again. LOL but boy I'm glad I did. Any one on the fence should get off and go buy it.

mhardy6647

I (finally) cleaned (some) of the dust off...

DSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

treitz3

Atta boy!

Tom

mhardy6647

The observant might notice something somewhat unusual (at least for the last few decades) about the tonearm. Anyone? Bueller?



(not a great photo but it's what I've got handy, you know?)