Bi-Amp AVR or just a separate amp?

Kingkwas

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

dannylightning

im not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. bi amp is running 2 separate amplifier to one set of speakers. one amplifier runs the tweeters and one amp runs the woofer. generally people do this with 2 channel amplifiers.

is this what you are trying to do?

F1nut

Kingkwas wrote: »

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.

True bi-amping is rather complex and involves active crossovers. Forget you ever heard about it.

Adding a separate amp will net you better performance verses an AVR alone.

mpitogo

F1nut wrote: »

Kingkwas wrote: »

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.

True bi-amping is rather complex and involves active crossovers. Forget you ever heard about it.

Adding a separate amp will net you better performance verses an AVR alone.

Really..?? So my Marantz SR-7009 9ch amp with bi-amp capability calibrated by Audyssey multi XT32 cannot do it? Even though it has the bi-amp speaker setup capability? Sound United purchased D&M so gonna be one big happy family...

cfrizz

A separate amp is definitely worth the investment. And you can keep it through all other upgrades to your system.

F1nut

mpitogo wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Kingkwas wrote: »

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.

True bi-amping is rather complex and involves active crossovers. Forget you ever heard about it.

Adding a separate amp will net you better performance verses an AVR alone.

Really..?? So my Marantz SR-7009 9ch amp with bi-amp capability calibrated by Audyssey multi XT32 cannot do it? Even though it has the bi-amp speaker setup capability? Sound United purchased D&M so gonna be one big happy family...

Yep, really. Your AVR has a single shared power supply and therefore is incapable of bi-amping. The very name should have clued you in, bi meaning two. In this case, two separate amplifiers each with their own power supply. That's not to mention bi-amping requires the use of active crossovers.

gp4jesus

F1nut wrote: »

Kingkwas wrote: »

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.

True bi-amping is rather complex and involves active crossovers. Forget you ever heard about it.

Adding a separate amp will net you better performance verses an AVR alone.

check my sig: tri-amped Left, Center, & Right channels w/a separate 2 channel for the surrounds*. BI-amped* to follow.

Tony

F1nut

For your viewing pleasure.

The Most Common Question About Biamping

The most common question I get is ...
"Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all.

Generally speaking, the mid to high section needs to be retained since a typical biamp setup will only eliminate the bass to mid+high network. These sections are nearly always completely separate networks, although it may not seem like it when you first have a look at the board.
Equally important is the selection of the electronic crossover frequency. It must be the same as the original, within a few 10s of hertz. The only exception is where you might obtain information from the manufacturer of the speaker that allows the frequency to be modified. In general, I strongly suggest that you determine the original crossover frequency, and stay with it.
When the crossover is modified, make sure that you retain all the parts, along with the original connections. A drawing (including all component values) and photograph will be of great assistance when you want to restore the speakers to normal prior to selling them - it is unlikely that you will ever want to do this for your own use - not after you have enjoyed the benefits of biamping for any length of time.
Passive biamping (where two amplifiers are used in a bi-wiring connection) is, IMO, a waste of money. Although there may be some moderate sonic benefits, they are not worth the expense of the extra amplifier.

F1nut

mpitogo wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Kingkwas wrote: »

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.

True bi-amping is rather complex and involves active crossovers. Forget you ever heard about it.

Adding a separate amp will net you better performance verses an AVR alone.

Really..?? So my Marantz SR-7009 9ch amp with bi-amp capability calibrated by Audyssey multi XT32 cannot do it? Even though it has the bi-amp speaker setup capability? Sound United purchased D&M so gonna be one big happy family...

Furthermore, in a case like yours where there is only a single shared power supply the more channels you use the less wpc are available to each channel.

mpitogo

F1nut wrote: »

mpitogo wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Kingkwas wrote: »

How does Bi-Amping my AVR equate to a dedicated separate amp?

Can you bi-amp a separate amp? Buy a 7 channel amp for a 5 channel setup

Would just a 5 channel amp sound better than bi-Amping AVR?

Is a separate amp worth the investment?

Thank you

You cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.

True bi-amping is rather complex and involves active crossovers. Forget you ever heard about it.

Adding a separate amp will net you better performance verses an AVR alone.

Really..?? So my Marantz SR-7009 9ch amp with bi-amp capability calibrated by Audyssey multi XT32 cannot do it? Even though it has the bi-amp speaker setup capability? Sound United purchased D&M so gonna be one big happy family...

Furthermore, in a case like yours where there is only a single shared power supply the more channels you use the less wpc are available to each channel.

One or both of the front L/R bi-amp can also be assigned to the multi-out to feed an outboard amp with its own power supply would that be bi-amp? I thought bi-amp just means putting two amplifier channels to a single speaker disconnecting the bridge plate or wire. Assume I where to use the pre-out in bi-amp mode on the AVR for both H/L for the front L/R, then connecting each pre-out to the same multi channel amp which is capable of delivering rated power to all channels driven 20hz-20khz but share one or two power supplies but each amp section is its own mono-block would this not be bi-amp? E.g. Monoprice Monolith or Emotiva XPR

I currently have the Marantz setup in 7.2.2 but can actually run processing for 11.2ch and was thinking of 7.2.2 with bi-amp of the front L/R. Pre-out to an external amp and let audyssey handle the calibration. I have not tried to so I'm not sure how it would handle.

FTGV

mpitogo wrote: »

... I thought bi-amp just means putting two amplifier channels to a single speaker disconnecting the bridge plate or wire.

Correct. It's the number of channels driving a speaker(biamp,triamp etc.) that give it the designation not the number of power supplies. However with the AVR "passive"biamp configuration even though separate channels are being used for the hi pass and low pass sections the passive crossover is still in place. While in some set ups the isolation of the hi pass section from woofer generated back EMF may provide some sonic benefit for the most part IMO improvements will not be significant.YMMV.

rpf65

If you simply remove the jumper, and use 2 separate amps, mono blocks, and use the existing cross over network within the speaker, it is technically not bi amping. Some may refer to it as bi amping, but that isn't the correct term.

First thing first. You can remove the jumper, and use 2 different outputs from your AVR. It will run your speakers, but most agree there is no sonic improvement.

You can use 2 separate outputs from a 2 channel amp, one to each binding post after the jumper is removed, and again it will work. More people think they hear a sonic improvement than with the AVR example, but many still hear no significant difference.

Using 2 separate monoblocks on each binding post will get even more people saying they hear a sonic difference. Again just about as many don't.

I don't have the same ears as any other person you ask, so I'll not give an opinion on any improvements, if any, on the above examples.

What I will say is that if you remove the factory jumpers and replace it with a good quality jumper you will hear an improvement. As for any other way you wish to wire your speakers, try it. If you hear a beneficial difference, go with it. Don't worry about what others say. What ever your personal opinion, people will disagree.

F1nut

Saying channels is what leads people to think they can bi-amp with an AVR, that's why I say power supplies. Regardless, without using active crossovers you are not bi-amping.

tonyb

Doesn't matter how many "channels" of an avr your using, they all draw from the same power supply.. More channels you use, the less power each gets. Usually receivers with ice amps hold their power across all channels better.

Bi-amping with a receiver is a question we get fairly often, and the answer is always the same, forget you heard about it. Basically a marketing gimmick.

That said, you may experience some improvement by doing so, but I'd imagine in a HT environment when you have all the other channels hooked up to speakers also, you might be on the losing side.

Passive bi-amping, which is what most do, leaves the speakers crossover in place and you use 2 amps for the top and bottom portions of the speakers. This too has it's pro's and cons and most don't bother with it. Powering speakers is probably the most misunderstood thing in audio for most folks.

mpitogo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-amping_and_tri-amping

So in essence what manufacturers do by putting in two sets of binding posts with a jumper and leaving the passive crossover in place is asinine. Why do they even do it! marketing?

So I understand the best way to bi-amp/tri-amp is to remove the passive crossover and use and an active crosssover such as a Behringer CX2310 and connect each high pass and low pass output to a dedicated monoblock. What audiophile grade active crossovers are about there. I'm not sure I've come across many.

tonyb

mpitogo wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-amping_and_tri-amping

So in essence what manufacturers do by putting in two sets of binding posts with a jumper and leaving the passive crossover in place is asinine. Why do they even do it! marketing?

.

Eh, not really, some like bi-wiring, some like passive bi-amping. The gimmick part is bi-amping with a receiver, not so much the 2 sets of binding posts on speakers.

Do a google search for quality active crossovers, you should get plenty.

gp4jesus

F1nut wrote: »

For your viewing pleasure.

The Most Common Question About Biamping....

...Although there may be some moderate sonic benefits, they are not worth the expense of the extra amplifier.

considering what some will lay out for cables, leaving the speaker internals untouched, to them, the "extra $" is chump change!

OTOH, the most worthwhile bi or tri amp execution is with active XOs.
All of my towers' amps' channels have dedicated transformer secondaries, rectifiers, & capacitor banks. Same for my surrounds' amp.

My center amp, just dedicated capacitor banks though it has space for dedicated rectifiers. All in good time. Either that or a P'Sound HCA-1203, which ever comes first.

Tony

mpitogo

I'm only finding Pro audio gear. I ran across an interesting manufacturer. They also have also have a standalone room correction DSP Dirac. I only have Audyssey builtin to my Onkyo and Marantz AVR. Cool you can get something to added on without spending on a MEN220.


https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/stereo-2-way-xover
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/minidsp-2x4hd-application/283-2x4-hd-twoway

BlueFox

The only Magico speaker you can bi-amp is the $650K Ultimate. That is all you need to know about any benefit to bi-amping.

cfrizz

Rather than weakening an already weak power supply, just get a separate amp, in how many channels you want, providing your receiver has preouts. That is a far better expenditure of money rather than buying more and having a rats nest of cables for no improvement.

gp4jesus

Both DBX (PX 2-way, PA 3 way) and Behringer (DCX2496) make EXOs. Pro gear, yes. Near infinite combinations of PEQ, GEQ, HP/LP filters 6/12/18/24 dB/octave LR & butterworth curves. W/the calibration mic & algorithm (Audyssey like)...

You'll need 2 RCA->MXLRs & 4 or 6 FXLR->RCAs.

Just a suggestion... Tony

FTGV

mpitogo wrote: »

I'm only finding Pro audio gear. I ran across an interesting manufacturer. They also have also have a standalone room correction DSP Dirac. I only have Audyssey builtin to my Onkyo and Marantz AVR. Cool you can get something to added on without spending on a MEN220.


https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/stereo-2-way-xover
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/minidsp-2x4hd-application/283-2x4-hd-twoway

MiniDSP is leading the charge for low cost DSP based active crossovers. These units are extremely versatile but some models sound good some not so much. My experience with the lower end piece is that it is well suited to subwoofer duties, but not so much for hi resolution full range duty. At the top of the DSP based crossover/processor food chain is the incredible but spendy DEQX products. http://www.deqx.com/.
While DSP based devices are becoming more popular, pure analog units are becoming less common. Marchand, Rane and Bryston at the hi end are among the few I know of. A number of years ago I went with a fully active setup and have not looked back. Since I prefer that the audio signal not be subjected to additional processing I use pure analog crossovers for the main speakers and a MiniDSP for the subwoofers.The poor A-D D-A conversion performance of the processor IC used in the inexpensive MiniDSP unit is not as apparent when limited to low frequency subwoofer use.

Here is a good treatise on the subject of passive vs active crossovers. http://www.tortugaaudio.com/articles/case-active-dsp-crossovers/

mpitogo

Tortuga info is pretty good.

Active crossover, as well as room correction, time delay and phase correction taken to a whole new level in a multi-amp configuration.
http://www.goldmund.com/en/technologies/speaker-modeling

Kingkwas

Thanks for comments. I have bi-amped my AVR L/R speakers. I did notice a modest improvement in performance. Not ground breaking but enough to be happy.

So my take away here is a separate amp is much better than bi-amped AVR.

Can you buy a 7 channel amp for a 5.1 system, then Bi-amp the L/R?

Or is that overkilL?

txcoastal1

Kingkwas wrote: »

Thanks for comments. I have bi-amped my AVR L/R speakers. I did notice a modest improvement in performance. Not ground breaking but enough to be happy.

So my take away here is a separate amp is much better than bi-amped AVR.

Can you buy a 7 channel amp for a 5.1 system, then Bi-amp the L/R?

Or is that overkilL?

You can try it, but not worth the money. Buy decent speaker cables for your main fronts instead.

Use the other 2 -channels for patio or other pair of speakers...IMHO

F1nut

Kingkwas wrote: »

Thanks for comments. I have bi-amped my AVR L/R speakers. I did notice a modest improvement in performance. Not ground breaking but enough to be happy.

So my take away here is a separate amp is much better than bi-amped AVR.

Can you buy a 7 channel amp for a 5.1 system, then Bi-amp the L/R?

Or is that overkilL?

Please read previous posts in this thread regarding what is and what is not bi-amping.

afterburnt

AVR bi-amping is a gimmick, soylent green is people

gp4jesus

afterburnt wrote: »

... soylent green is people

What does that mean?

FTGV

Kingkwas wrote: »

Can you buy a 7 channel amp for a 5.1 system, then Bi-amp the L/R?

Or is that overkill?

As has been covered passive bi amping will still have the same limitations(the passive crossover) even with a separate multi ch power amp. A part from that if your AVR is a little under nourished in the power dept. then the addition of an amp with greater dynamic power capability would certainly be beneficial. Of course the AVR would need to have appropriate preamp outputs for the channels you want to use the amp with.

tonyb

Kingkwas wrote: »

Thanks for comments. I have bi-amped my AVR L/R speakers. I did notice a modest improvement in performance. Not ground breaking but enough to be happy.

So my take away here is a separate amp is much better than bi-amped AVR.

Can you buy a 7 channel amp for a 5.1 system, then Bi-amp the L/R?

Or is that overkilL?

You can, but it's not necessary, especially if your running 8 ohm speakers. Buy a 5 channel amp, which is cheaper, save the coin and forget about bi-amping. Just my .02

slk55amg

I agree, get a good 5 channel amp and for get the Bi amping idea. Complete waste of time. Back in 2009 before I got my Emotiva XPA5. I tried bi amping with my sony ES5300. I tried it out on my monitor 70,s my front speakers at the time.