Help me understand

stones89

The urge to update Polk SDA's to what I have heard described as "more like current speakers." I have owned 2.3tl's for many years and just dropped them back in the system after about 15 years on the sidelines. In that time I have been through tons of components, speakers and cables....especially cables.

What I have learned broadly speaking is there are really 2 paths to go down when building a long term satisfying system, musicality and resolution. There are degrees of each obviously but I have found most current audio designers are more about increasing resolution. I have put some pretty good stuff upstream of my 2.3's and find I like the musicality, the slightly overblown but full bass, the murky but clear when called for midrange and sweet highs of the sl3000 tweeters. And the SDA effect makes the soundstage feel like you are on stage with the band but doesn't present as in your face.

I ask this question because my initial thoughts when I put mine back in the rig were, upgrade everything but I would hate to lose what I have.....and what the speakers were designed to be. Does that make sense?

heiney9

Updating speaker crossovers is like giving your car a tune-up. Same car, better performance and overall enjoyment.

Caps get old and worn out, cabinets get old and creaky, drivers slip their magnets, etc. Better quality caps and resistors are available today that weren't some 20-30 years ago.

The Polk replacement RD0 tweeters are re-engineered by Polk to make slight improvements for a better tweeter.

Trust those of us who have been doing this for a long time. It's well worth the time, effort and $$$ to update these speakers. It only improves the character that's already there.

H9

Conradicles

I totally agree with H9.

nooshinjohn

I also agree with the above. There are numerous threads about upgrades. As someone that has done most of them on my 1.2TL's and heard these upgrades on 2.3TL's, they transform the resolution from muddy to crisp and bring control to the bass without compromising the soundstage. In fact, the soundstage benefits from the improvements as well.

Moose68Bash

I've upgraded two pairs of SDAs -- a pair of 1Cs and a pair of SRSs. In fact, I've upgraded the SRS pair twice, first to SRS 1.2, then to 1.2 TL.

Because the first two upgrades made such dramatic improvements, I made the considerable investment to "TL" the SRS pair, in spite of my prior investment in upgrades.

In my opinion, you will loose nothing in resolution, musicality or soundstage dimensions and stereo imaging. Rather, you will get dramatic improvements in all these factors.

As I have said in reviews of my speakers after these upgrades, I have auditioned many sets of very expensive contemporary speakers and I have found only one set that I considered purchasing -- not to replace my SDAs, but to introduce into my home as a totally new system. That was a used set of the Nola Grand Reference IV.1 four-tower system that sold new for >$150,000 and that was being offered used on Audiogon for $55,000.

I did not have the skills to do the work required to design and build crossover upgrades that really make the SDAs "sign" at their full potential. I worked with Trey of Vr3 Mods [ @VR3 ], and he does fantastic, creative and innovative work, as has been well attested on this Forum over several years.

stones89

Thanks for the informative reponses, especially since you have first hand experience. I wish I had another pair to tinker with for comparison sake. I can sense the improvements you mention, my only reservation is losing the musicality of the speakers for more resolution. I have resolving speakers with 2 sets of Thiels and the Polks offer a more musical presentation versus a somewhat laser sharp one - I do not want that with a modded pair of Polks.

I have replaced blown woofers on other speakers and mounted several cartridges so I am not totally helpless but I would definitely need Vr3 Mods assistance especially with the crossover.

heiney9

You won't loose anything. The only thing you'll be saying (like the rest of us) is why didn't I do this sooner.

You won't change the character of the speakers, you will improve all aspects.

stones89

: mouthwatering. It is also a nice little investment.

F1nut

I agree with the others. The mods do not change the basic character, they simply make it better.

pkquat

I trust others to correct any errors in my suggestion. I may be missing something.

This upgrade route would only have the added cost of inductors, connecting plates, and binding posts vs a regular upgrade.

I think @westmassguy , DHS speaker service, still has some of the SDA crossover boards by @gimpod http://www.gimpod.com/ . You can have @westmassguy build the crossovers or build them yourself if you like. The boards are highly recommended for any SDA upgrading.

Get some extra polk connecting plates from any used crossover here or on ebay, or get these

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/176575/round-sda-plates-2-post-neutrik-nl4-b-stock#latest

Get the RD0-198's.

This way you will have your "original" crossovers and tweeters if you don't care for the new version, you can go back. As I recall there are choices on the brand of inductors for slightly different bass qualities.

When available "larry's rings" are always good or adding hurricane nuts, but the latter is a LOT of work with that many speakers.

[Deleted User]

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

stones89

TForan wrote: »

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

Great point, everyone has their own set of ears and preferences. Some people prefer a row 6 presenation, some like mid hall and others like row1. As an audiophile we are always looking for better, my favorite saying with cables is “if one sounds this good two must be even better!” Not always true.

I wish I could hear a modded pair before getting out the hammer and saw.

heiney9

TForan wrote: »

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

The RD0-198 is a much better tweeter and the caps are old and tired. A refresh of any gear this age is a good thing. If you didn't think they sounded a lot better, then your opinion is in the minority. Still your opinion, but you'd be one of the few that feel that way.

So I have to respectfully disagree.

H9

stones89

Good point DSkip. They have been keepers although unused until recently. I have never had the ability to place them correctly until now. When I bought them 100 years ago they went in a really small room. My room before this one, I could not get them near the front wall. Now I can basically do what I want so I am really hearing for the first time what they are capable of doing in terms of soundstaging.

I have said it before, they sound like live music in smallish bar about 6 tables in, and Jim Beam Black helps a lot.

K_M

stones89 wrote: »

TForan wrote: »

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

Great point, everyone has their own set of ears and preferences. Some people prefer a row 6 presenation, some like mid hall and others like row1. As an audiophile we are always looking for better, my favorite saying with cables is “if one sounds this good two must be even better!” Not always true.

I wish I could hear a modded pair before getting out the hammer and saw.

You will not be able to technically compare a modded pair to a stock pair fairly though, as any stock pair by now (25 or more years) will have bad caps and will not even sound like how a stock pair would have sounded new.

Many people have had great luck and sound with ERSE or Dayton audio caps, or other similar priced ones.

Good luck in your quest!

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

TForan wrote: »

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

The RD0-198 is a much better tweeter and the caps are old and tired. A refresh of any gear this age is a good thing. If you didn't think they sounded a lot better, then your opinion is in the minority. Still your opinion, but you'd be one of the few that feel that way.

So I have to respectfully disagree.

H9

Not disagreeing with you, but one of ours, was wildly different sounding than the other. It seems the caps in the bad one went really bad and the other it was much clearer. I suppose use/climate/etc could maybe make some go bad far sooner and some not go bad.
Just speculating on maybe why his sounded that way.

machone

I bought 2.3TL's a year ago. I found my notes about listening in stock form:

machone wrote: »

I did some more listening last night. In their stock form I find them sluggish, muffled and veiled. They have nice mids and vocals sound good. Top and bottom end is not extended. I am writing these notes so I can come back to them as the rebuild progresses.
My hope is that this rebuild will transform these speakers just like my last SDA-1A rebuild.

Just changing tweeters to RDO198's made a huge difference. Here are some notes about that:

machone wrote: »

I swapped the tweeters to RD0198s. Right out of the box they kill the SL3000s. I did not realize how much of an impact they would have on sluggish bass. I will keep the radio on for the next day to start the burn-in process.

I have continued the upgrades and can say that they have been transformed. I live near Hilton Head Island, SC. If you are close you are welcome to visit and listen.

stones89

Thanks Machone, I do not live close but thanks for the invite! I followed your upgrade thread and I must say it was fascinating....well done. I wonder if I have the capability since I have never tried....

machone

If you decide to move forward you will have plenty of support from this forum.
I was able to do what I did only because of the help and experience of those who have been on the forum long before I found it.

nooshinjohn

heiney9 wrote: »

TForan wrote: »

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

The RD0-198 is a much better tweeter and the caps are old and tired. A refresh of any gear this age is a good thing. If you didn't think they sounded a lot better, then your opinion is in the minority. Still your opinion, but you'd be one of the few that feel that way.

So I have to respectfully disagree.

H9

I respectfully agree with his disagreement. The mods tone to the SDA's have been thoroughly tested and refined for a very long time. Polk engineering has been behind many of them, so these are not just some trial and error hodgepodge of ideas. Further, the stock speakers against modded has been tested and measured by every means test available and the upgraded versions found to be superior across the board.

A thirty year old Corvette is still a great car, and still a Corvette, but I would rather have a new one for performance. And even then, there is still room to improve, depending on your wallet.

We should start calling the upgraded speakers Plus models. Modding and upgrading sounds like we are destroying the originals, when in reality, we are taking the speakers to a level that was intended by Matt and the other designers from the very beginning.

[Deleted User]

nooshinjohn wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

TForan wrote: »

If you're happy with them, I say leave them alone. Modded, they will sound different, but a lot better would be someone's opinion. I went through the whole modded procedure with my SRS 2s and by far, the biggest improvement were the tweeters and you already have the SL3000s, so no changes need to be made.

The RD0-198 is a much better tweeter and the caps are old and tired. A refresh of any gear this age is a good thing. If you didn't think they sounded a lot better, then your opinion is in the minority. Still your opinion, but you'd be one of the few that feel that way.

So I have to respectfully disagree.

H9

I respectfully agree with his disagreement. The mods tone to the SDA's have been thoroughly tested and refined for a very long time. Polk engineering has been behind many of them, so these are not just some trial and error hodgepodge of ideas. Further, the stock speakers against modded has been tested and measured by every means test available and the upgraded versions found to be superior across the board.

A thirty year old Corvette is still a great car, and still a Corvette, but I would rather have a new one for performance. And even then, there is still room to improve, depending on your wallet.

We should start calling the upgraded speakers Plus models. Modding and upgrading sounds like we are destroying the originals, when in reality, we are taking the speakers to a level that was intended by Matt and the other designers from the very beginning.

A 1987 Corvette is a bad analogy. It was a POS then and now. Seriously, I'm probably the wrong guy to opine on this subject. I feel speaker design has come a long way since the mid eighties. I wonder how many inquiries Polk has had on licensing ? Seems like he would had a few , if it was such a unique and desirable design.

I did enjoy them when I had them except for the extremely limited sweet spot and the veiled top end , which I think is a characteristic of SRS2s.

nooshinjohn

Have you ever heard an upgraded pair? How old were the ones you had when you had them? If they were more than 12 years old, and you never heard an upgraded pair, from where do you have the knowledge or experience to form any opinion at all?

heiney9

TForan wrote: »

I did enjoy them when I had them except for the extremely limited sweet spot and the veiled top end , which I think is a characteristic of SRS2s.

Again, your experience seems to be in the minority. SDA's actually have a large sweet spot, off axis has always been very good. A speaker with an extremely limited sweet spot would be any pair of Magnepan's, that's extremely limited. Even moving your head inches will collapse the sound stage in some cases.

No veils here

Just because design has "come a long way" doesn't automatically relegate great past designs to be subpar automatically.

There have been great advances in home design and materials, tell that to someone who owns a Frank Lloyd Wright house and ask them to move......lol.

Newer isn't automatically better by default. SDA's are a bit unique and compare favorably in today's market. If they don't float your boat, that's fine. But don't try and make a general statement about newer is better.

Again you have your opinion and I'm not trying to invalidate that, just presenting a counter point discussion.

H9

[Deleted User]

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Have you ever heard an upgraded pair? How old were the ones you had when you had them? If they were more than 12 years old, and you never heard an upgraded pair, from where do you have the knowledge or experience to form any opinion at all?

I spent over $1000 modding mine, so I have some experience with them. OK?

Mine were SDA SRS2s.

stones89

This is my crossover, I can handle everything except that! I am sure I could I have just never tried. Not bad at demolition - it’s the rebuild not so great at!

[Deleted User]

stones89 wrote: »

This is my crossover, I can handle everything except that! I am sure I could I have just never tried. Not bad at demolition - it’s the rebuild not so great at!

I sent mine to David "westmassguy" and he's great to work with. Very knowledgable.

K_M

stones89 wrote: »

This is my crossover, I can handle everything except that! I am sure I could I have just never tried. Not bad at demolition - it’s the rebuild not so great at!

Its actually pretty easy. My husband handles all the planning, and I did the soldering. I have smaller thinner fingers and better dexterity. I can also see up close better. If I can do it, you can do it!

Yes, there was yelling and cursing, but it all got done in the end.
Take your time, make a place where you will not be bothered for a few hours.
Do not rush, and do not expect the world to change. Just have fun. We kinda sorta did.

I sent our daughter on a playdate.

kevinko

It can seem risky and ridiculous to spend so much time, effort, and money to do upgrades when you are unsure of the payoff. But you will never be able to listen to them now without that itch in the back of your head telling you that it could be so much more, so much more.

Emlyn

stones89 wrote: »

This is my crossover, I can handle everything except that! I am sure I could I have just never tried. Not bad at demolition - it’s the rebuild not so great at!

Yes, those crossover parts were low cost back then but were within design spec and got the job done at the time.

The question I'd be asking myself is whether it is worth it to me to put the money and time into modifying the speakers. Every modification I did to mine improved the sound quality a little but added no monetary value to the speakers. Would it be better for you to sell the 2.3TLs without modifying them and putting that money, and any money you would avoid spending on upgrades, towards something else in the systems?

After weighing the factors significant to me, and wanting to try different things, I decided to become SDA-less even though the speakers were a lot of fun over the years.

I agree with your earlier observation that the SDAs sound more like live music in a bar than most other speakers can. The modifications will not change the basic character of the speakers. If you like how they sound now and want to retain something unique while improving the original control and clarity of the speakers they are worth investing some time and money into. Or you could just listen to them and enjoy them for what they are for a while and sell them on rather than letting them sit for so long unused.

stones89

K_M wrote: »

stones89 wrote: »

This is my crossover, I can handle everything except that! I am sure I could I have just never tried. Not bad at demolition - it’s the rebuild not so great at!

Its actually pretty easy. My husband handles all the planning, and I did the soldering. I have smaller thinner fingers and better dexterity. I can also see up close better. If I can do it, you can do it!

Yes, there was yelling and cursing, but it all got done in the end.
Take your time, make a place where you will not be bothered for a few hours.
Do not rush, and do not expect the world to change. Just have fun. We kinda sorta did.

I sent our daughter on a playdate.

Nice to have a partner! My wife helped me replace a woofer for my Egglestons a while back, had to desolder and solder and there was barely enough wire inside the speaker, I mean it protruded maybe a half inch outside the cavity. And in the middle of all this the power went out. Yikes!

pkquat

I have some older all original Monitor 5A's with the peerless tweeter. I love their sound, although they are bass shy. I still plan on upgrading the crossovers. I actually got some spare crossovers in case I didn't like the change, and to compare the difference.

As I have aquired different speakers over time with different qualities and tones, and heard some issues, likely caused by aged crossovers, I have picked up on some weaknesses of the M5's. I still love their sound, but I would now call it "comfortable", more of a familiar sound that I have grown accustomed to and like. Upgrading the crossover will change their sound a little, but also improve it. I know I will appreciate them more after I upgrade.