Tube buffers

Willow
Willow Posts: 11,018
in Electronics
Some questions on buffers:

Where are they placed, after source before pre? after transport but before DAC? or after DAC before pre? or after pre to amp?
I've been tempted to perhaps play with one and no clue where the best place to put it.

Thanks guys

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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    edited March 2017
    A local guy has a grant fidelity b283 and been thinking. If I use it from pre to amp, if kids want to watch cartoons does the buffer need warm up time? If I turn it off can it still transmit signal just not buffered? Or just leave it on all the time? Do they throw off lots of heat?
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    edited March 2017
    Sorry, double post
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  • tat
    tat Posts: 159
    Tube buffers have been around awhile in guitar/instrument rigs and can have terrific results; especially when long cable runs are needed etc. While they are used to add warmth etc they are most effective as line drivers to retain the freq response of signal thru components ime. Depending on the specs of equipt in chain the optimal placement could vary; usually very early in signal chain is typical starting point though. Ive never used them in home audio.
    When freedom is outlawed, only outlaws are free...
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,446
    I have a Yaqin CD3 uses 6SN7 tubes. I put mine on the EQ RCA's of my Carver C16 pre. If you try to send a signal through it off you must really crank the volume and it sounds bad. My experience is they work better between the pre and amp, unless you have the circuit like mine in your Preamp. Yes the tubes need at least 6-8 minutes to come up before they sound good.
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    So can it be left on all the time? Kids can't wait 6-8 mins
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,446
    Willow wrote: »
    So can it be left on all the time? Kids can't wait 6-8 mins

    Yes but you're just wasting your tubes at that point if you're talking 24/7. I leave mine on on the weekends when I'm listening to music most of the time as i also leave on pre and amp. Come Monday off they go.
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    Ok so if it's between the pre and amp, if I turn it off, does the signal still flow through un buffered? I ask because I'd like to use it for cds, Spotify and a soon to be new Source.... Which is why I'd like it between the pre and amp
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,446
    edited March 2017
    No it will need to be on.
    Reread my post above
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    Boo. So doesn't seem like it will fit my set up or id have to get two or three of them.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,446
    edited March 2017
    My Carver C16 has a processor loop. I can insert by pressing the button on/off.
    I wrongly called it EQ earlier.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    I have used mine in a few different configurations. When I had an integrated, I put it between the pre out and amp in. When I had a tube preamp, I put it behind the Dac before the pre. I thought it did a good job.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2017
    Really anything with a tube shouldn't be left on 24/7 or unattended for long periods of time. If your kids can't wait 5-7 minutes to use the system then I'd forget tubes in the mix.

    I also think unless you are using a processor loop in your pre-amp, it should be inserted between the amp and pre-amp. A processor loop does the same thing (inserts between the amp and pre), just allows you to bypass/engage the unit in the signal path.

    Just my .02c

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    I'm sure they could wait, it's just will anyone remember to turn it on, by the time the Netflix page loads and they start a show I'm sure the tubes would have had a chance to warm up.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    If they don't turn it on, they get no sound or very, very faint sound.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,086
    I get sound as soon as I turn my preamp on before the tubes even start glowing. Of course it gets better as it warms up but we're talking about kids watching cartoons, they won't notice.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited March 2017
    On the other hand, the buffers don't run the tubes at high plate voltages. The tubes in them aren't dissipating much power, so they don't get hot. We ain't talking class A biased KT-100s, y'know? ;)

    Personally, I am not a big fan of leaving anything on, unattended, 24/7. Not surprisingly (Luddite that i am) I am not a huge fan of "standby" modes on modern electronics -- for a bevy of reasons! My amplifier, e.g., has a big ol' ON/OFF toggle switch on the back apron. ka-chunk. ON. ka-chunk. OFF. Very satisfying. Off is OFF, too.

    Some always-on stuff we're kind of stuck with, though. Vampire electronics -- raising our electric bills all day, every day.

    :*

    Sorry.

    buffers -- two (ahem. make that three) things to add (better late than never?). These are, of course strictly my opinions (no more, no less), although not without (I'd opine) some experience to support them.

    1. Tube buffers run their small-signal triode tubes very "soft". The tubes should last for tens of thousands of hours.

    1a. Nothing shortens the life of electronics like power up/power down cycles. You've probably noticed that good old-fashioned incandescent light bulbs fail on turn-on; rarely in 'steady state'. That turn-on slam slams 'em. True for every electronic component -- even the ones with 'soft start' circuitry. Something in that soft-start circuit sees that "slam" first and has to deal with it ;)

    3. If you need a buffer (i.e., impedance matching between components), you probably don't "need" a tube buffer. There are excellent to outstanding ones that don't use vacuum tubes.

    3. If you do "need" a tube buffer (i.e., to round off some rough edges), you've probably got other "issues", hi-fi wise. You might be better off to treat the disease rather than the symptoms.
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    That's just it, I know something isn't as good as it could be, just not sure where it is and where to start. I feel I'm missing some depth to my music and what seems to be a bit of meat to the bones, if that makes sense. Are my speakers too close to the back walls? do my components suck?....
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    Do you want some free and unsolicited advice? ;)

    Strip down to the bare minimum -- a source, an amplifier (if the output level of the source can be controlled, you don't even need a preamp!), and speakers. You can even start with mono -- if it don't sound good in mono, it ain't gonna sound good in stereo.

    Play something simple and extremely well recorded.

    Here's a couple of serving suggestions (get good quality versions, of course):

    https://youtu.be/rdT58JW1yF8
    https://youtu.be/c_alN-IzNFM

    This may help both toubleshooting and understanding what you want vs. what you have, sound-wise.


    If not, I still have plausible deniability.
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    I don't believe I can control the volume on any of my sources without the pre.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    Well, then, you'll have to leave it in :)
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    DSkip wrote: »
    If its the 2ch you are talking about.... there is a reason I'm not a fan of B&W. There could be more to it though, like the Marantz being used as a stereo preamp.

    Sometimes I wonder... they are a big upgrade over the rti8s those hurt my ears. As for the Marantz I need an ht pre because it needs to do both TV / movies and music. 4k... and such.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,446
    edited March 2017
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    so they don't get hot

    Sorry Doc you're wrong here. My CD3 tubes get very hot 6SN7, 6BL7, 6Bx7, Russian, Chinese all get hot. My Buffer with the 6ak7 got warm not hot but they are different tubes.

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  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,086
    DSkip wrote: »
    I agree that they would be an upgrade... but are they a preferred upgrade or just 'better than the last one'?

    That's the thing, it's pretty costly and time consuming to try many speakers in your own home unless you live near a trusting dealer. Hearing them at a store or audio convention is nice but you could bring them home and they sound like ****.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited March 2017
    Relative to my tastes (which, I fully realize, is a useless perspective ro you -- unless you've heard something that I think sounds good, so that we have a reference point!) -- the loudspeakers & preamp you're using are holding you back from real-sounding (as opposed to "realistic" or "impressive") reproduction of music.

    I'll reiterate, though, that my uncalibrated opinion's not going to help very much :/
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    DSkip wrote: »
    I agree that they would be an upgrade... but are they a preferred upgrade or just 'better than the last one'?

    Might be on to something. My problem is I went to a local hi-fi shop, they had some harbeth being pumped by an accuphase amp , it sounded like I was there in the studio. I know there is a big price difference but I loved what heard. I know I have decent and should be happy. I'm not unhappy but find I'm missing a little something. I'm not striving for perfection as I know that will never happen.
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  • deucekazoo
    deucekazoo Posts: 146
    I run a tube buffer between my CD player and the pre. I have the Decware ZBOX - Zen Triode Output Stage and it is designed to stay on at all times. There is no power switch. Check it out, it might be what you are looking for.
    Polk S10, S8, S4
    Polk RT8
    Polk Monitor 7s
    Working on getting SDAs
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  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    I would save the cash and put it toward a tube pre with home theater bypass. I think the result will be much more rewarding.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    I would save the cash and put it toward a tube pre with home theater bypass. I think the result will be much more rewarding.


    I wouldn't be surprised -- although a try before you buy would be a good idea (or buy something that's easily sold at its original cost to recoup the investment in case it doesn't quite pan out).
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,018
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    I would save the cash and put it toward a tube pre with home theater bypass. I think the result will be much more rewarding.

    I'm thinking this might be the way.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited March 2017
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    so they don't get hot

    Sorry Doc you're wrong here. My CD3 tubes get very hot 6SN7, 6BL7, 6Bx7, Russian, Chinese all get hot. My Buffer with the 6ak7 got warm not hot but they are different tubes.

    That's odd (although I don't know what a CD3 is, so I don't know how hard it runs its triodes). You're right, though, that I shouldn't have over-generalized. Just looked up the plate dissipation spec on the 6SN7: 5 watts. A 6SN7 run hard could thus be pretty hot. I don't have any experience with the 6BX7, but the specs for both triodes allows plate dissipation up to 12 watts.

    It also may your definition of hot & mine differ considerably. Output tubes and rectifiers get hot (oven temperatures -- hot enough to burn skin); small signal tubes get warm (150 degrees F or less, typically).

    I just grabbed one of the 6SN7s on my power amp, which has been on most of the afternoon. Felt warm but not at all unpleasant. Now -- I won't be tryin' that with the 2A3s or the 5V4 :neutral:


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