Ceiling treatment - clouds. What a pain.

Joey_V

So I was finally able to complete my clouds installation. It was a PITA.

This installation was fraught with issues.

1. What kind of installation hardware would I need? The manufacturer does not have any clouds install kit that looks remotely good.
2. I have a slight incline to my ceiling, which means I need to be able to modulate the drop from the front vs the rear of the clouds to allow for a flat dropped ceiling look.
3. I checked for studs, to see if I can center than panels to be suspended by studs, lo-behold, my media room's studs are off center and are of no help.
4. Then I realized I needed to install it to the drywall. The panels are approximately 10 lbs a piece... so if I was hanging 6+, that's 60 lbs on the ceiling. I needed good strong drywall anchors on a nearly vertical pull.

So I figured, the best way to do this was to use toggle bolts as they have the strongest drywall anchoring capabilities, I watched numerous youtube videos comparing this to other anchors.

Then I had to find hooks that would somehow install into the toggle bolts, which was not particularly easy to do at my local LOWES as no one there was any help.... luckily I found the right combo.

Then I decided that apparently I'd have to drill a 5/8" hole into the wall, well that would look really ugly and messy with the hooks dangling through, so I bought some washers to clean the look.

Preplanning took me nearly 4 months as little details were annoying, such as finding the right hardware, and even when I found the correct hardware, I would deplete the entire stash at Lowes each time I went and would have to come back the week after for the remaining stash, I did this 3x.

OK, so we figured out how to hang the clouds.... the next issue was - how to determine where to hang them?

Joey_V

Part 2:
The next issue was not HOW to hang, it was WHERE to hang the clouds?

I determined via calculations and a mirror, that I needed to hang approximately 6 panels. They had to be pretty close in proximity to avoid residual sound reflection/aberrations.

So, now that I knew how to hang them and a pretty good idea that my system would hold up the units, how do you actually measure and mark out the ceiling?

Very difficult.

Initially I was about to tackle the issue via straight up measurements, I drew on a piece of paper the ceiling, the dimensions, where each would go and since EACH panel had 4 points of contact with the hooks, I needed 6x4 = 24 hook coordinates!!

I had everything down to the nearest .25 inch, but once I started to measure, even with the help of lasers, the fact that my ceiling was angled, made for a very difficult and notoriously inaccurate measurement system and it was fraught with erroneous coordinates on the ceiling.

So what's next?

Well I was about to give up and call a handyman, but I realized no one was as anal as me.... so I figured, maybe if I could just get the center 2 panels up, it would make the remaining 4 easy to place... so I tried to lift the panel up to the ceiling and mark the borders... but because it was so heavy and I didn't want to involve the wife and my only help was Emma, it was not working out. Plus I could not see where the hooks were since it was underside to the panel.

Joey_V

Part 3:
So I recalled back in my high school days, we used to make presentations with posterboards, so I picked one up and went with the lightest one, was anal enough to actually weight 2 that I bought and went with the lightest weight one.

Cut it out to the dimensions of the panel, and found the site of the hooks and made holes on the posterboard mock panel cut out...

Set the first panel with help of lasers and centered the mock panel, taped it down, walked around the room to ensure it was in a good spot, when I was happy with it, I marked the hook sites with a marker. Then I marked the borders with 2 inches of painter's tape and went on to the next panel location. Then the next, then the next..

Well, this took many hours, so I gave up for the night and went to sleep.

Joey_V

Part 4:
Next day, I had the entire ceiling marked out, I knew were to drill, so it was a matter of drilling. But because this was my first one, I drilled in the first 2 panels (center) and went to see how it looked. It actually looked quite good.

I wanted to assess how good the hooks held the units so I left it there overnight and went to check it the next day.

The next day, the panels were still hanging, nice and strong, so I knew it was working.

I drilled the remainder and hung the panels.

This process took a bit faster as I was getting really good at this.

Here is the final result. It took about 4 months from the initial concept to completion... yes, I am ocd.

Joey_V

Here are pictures of the panels and the process.

1. Toggle bolts with stock screws. I had to replaced those screws with hooks because I could not figure how to hang a chain with a screw head.


2. Marking the ceiling, this was a victory in it of itself, this took a long time and was painful... thank goodness for the mock cardboard panel.


3. Materials required, large 5/8" drill bit.


4. Another view point of the ceiling panel lay out. You can also see where I marked the midpoint of the room, and also I marked where the studs were.


5. The mock panel next to the rear of a GIK panel.


6. Found the hook with the exact screw dimension.


7. Toggle bolts.


8. My little creation.


9. Washers.


10. The hanging system.

Joey_V

More pictures:

1. Installation of the hanging hardware. Pretty straightforward and it works really well. the washer really works in 2 ways. It creates a uniform "stop" for the hooks so each hook is not any higher than another hook. It also covers up the rather large drywall hole that you can see... made the wife happier (kind of).





2. Had to create chains. I did not want to use picture hanging string as that would cause variations in length and could loosen over time. I had to count the # of links and used pliers to open up the links to form a hook at each end. I made 24 pieces and 4 more for future reference.


3. The unit in action. I think it looks awesome.


4. You can see the large hole.


5. The first 2 hung. Left it overnight to see if any issues were to creep up.


6. How I hung each one, one at a time. Also was useful in doing A/B comparisons.... with clouds vs without clouds(!). Also showed how strong the units were, I feel like 2 toggle bolts could hold an entire panel.... so my execution was definitely overkill.

Joey_V

Last set of pictures:

1. 4 panels up... things are going smoothly so far.



2. All 6 are up. I have already marked for further additions to the clouds in case I wanted to do some diffusor panels towards the lateral aspects of the ceiling.


3. And my little helper. Daddy would ask her for tape, or the ruler, or the tape measurer... she was just having fun being in dad's stereo room. Took her to do her favorite past time activity "SHOPPING". She got loaded up with "harprise eggs" (how she says "surprise" eggs).

mdaudioguy

You probably know the saying... Measure twice, cut once. Nice work! Hope the results are satisfying.

Joey_V

mdaudioguy wrote: »

You probably know the saying... Measure twice, cut once. Nice work! Hope the results are satisfying.

Oh yeah, the results are astonishing. I definitely cleaned up the sound stage by removing a layer of smear from the ceiling. The imaging is dense and of the right height, the front to back sound staging is fantastic now, makes mincemeat of what I had before. The WELs really strut their stuff now, voices are just right. I think I had 4 rounds of goosebumps one after another during the testing phase earlier today (and that was with 1/3 of my room naked without treatments because of the vacuum of panels to the ceiling).

I kept looking around my equipment trying to figure out the next move, lo behold it was right above me.

Now I need to order some more treatments for the rest of the room because the ceiling "stole" 6 panels worth. I need some bass traps to 4 corners (expensive, ugh)... and some diffusors as well.

Soon I can continue my evaluation of the new MAC500T against the Cary SLP05 preamp @JuanR

Willow

Nice work Joey. How do you find the time? I can barely get through a cup of tea without one or both kids coming to see me wanting something. Keep up the good work

Joey_V

Willow wrote: »

Nice work Joey. How do you find the time? I can barely get through a cup of tea without one or both kids coming to see me wanting something. Keep up the good work

Thanks!

That's probably why it took me 4 months to preplan and execute. Usually I work on my room at night, when people are about to sleep. Usually I can hang out with Emma in the stereo room for an hour, while I work, tweak, listen to things, a/b components...

For example, this particular project, took me 3 evenings to complete.

During down times at work, I draw out plans and make calculations with the room.

Sometimes I try to parcel out the budget to see what would yield the best performance for the least amount of money spent - admittedly, on a nearly daily basis when my mind wanders during the course of the day...

I'm also lucky that my wife allows me the luxury to do this... I get minimal gruff as long as I stay in my lane.

Staying in my lane = not only budgetary, but also time management. If I spent hours in my room and disregard the kids (not feed Emma or Henry, or bathe them), I would be in more trouble with that than bringing home a used pair of Sonus Faber Amati Futuras, for example. I just need to know how to play the game...

... usually I figured out that if I take Emma out of my wife's hair... and we hang out in the speaker room, I kill 4 birds with 1 stone... I can babysit my doppelganger, I get to hang out with her, and we can also work on the room and the system together AND my wife likes that Emma is listening to music and Emma is not running amok around the house. As a consequence, I don't think it goes to be said that Emma has been exposed to more audio equipment than I have been at her age. She's heard the WELs so much that it's like no big deal.

Win-win.

mrbiron

Please stop using the word "Studs" when marking a ceiling. You hurt my brain
Joists (flooring system) or rafters (roofing system) are the words you should be using. Studs are in walls.

I wouldn't worry about your panels falling on your noodle any time soon. With the distance between toggles, you will be more than fine. Stationary 10lbs, distributed, isn't that much. Maybe in 10 years you might notice a sag but we both know you're not going to be there in 10 years.

Looks good. Glad to see you brought your medical tools home for precision craftsmanship. That drill looks like it's seen a few femurs in it's day.

Alright, enough ragging on you. Nice work!

Joey_V

Rafters.... So that's what they are! Joists for floors....

I learned something today... Sweet!

Re the 10y thing... You're probably right... I wonder what the next homeowner is going to say about the treatments in this room, if he's just going to want them or what... I was thinking that when I was hanging these guys near the "rafters"...

muncybob

Nice work, you have given me ideas. With as ocd as you admit you are, I'm surprised you didn't paint the chains/washers to match the ceiling

mhardy6647

1) it's nice to see the word fraught used correctly (grammatically) in the first post!

2) looking at the photos just got me to thinkin' about the Ted Williams tunnel in Boston

mrbiron

Hey now. That was due to shoddy epoxy for anchoring the massive concrete panels.

Joey's toggles should work....SHOULD!

mhardy6647

Yup.

FWIW, I like lagging big ol' screws into the -- umm -- joists? Rafters? Them big stringers up above the drywall

In seriousness, toggle bolts are OK.
Whenever I use 'em in walls, I usually manage to drop at least one of the toggles whilst inserting the bolt and toggle into the hole drilled in the wall (down into the interstices of the wall, you know, between the studs) -- oops

DaveHo

Looks good. Hopefully the drywall installers used the correct kind, number, & spacing of drywall screws. Thatsa lotta weight to hang from just the drywall.

tratliff

DaveHo wrote: »

Looks good. Hopefully the drywall installers used the correct kind, number, & spacing of drywall screws. Thatsa lotta weight to hang from just the drywall.

I was thinking the same. I would keep an eye on that dry wall for sags, screw/nail pulls.

Willow

mrbiron wrote: »

Please stop using the word "Studs" when marking a ceiling. You hurt my brain
Joists (flooring system) or rafters (roofing system) are the words you should be using. Studs are in walls.

Wrong, Studs are all of us reading this!!

mrbiron

Willow wrote: »

Wrong, Studs are all of us reading this!!

Touche`....Stud

Joey_V

Looks like it's holding real well today morning

haimoc

Good job, Joey.. I would consider to have a new accessory for your audio room, Joey..

[Deleted User]

Nice job !

motorhead43026

I am impressed, I assumed most doctors struggle to screw in light bulb.

Good job.

adb3da

I'm forgetting now...what speakers are in this room?

footwedge

Looks like a professional installed them. Think you might have found your SIDE BUSINESS.

mhardy6647

motorhead43026 wrote: »

I am impressed, I assumed most doctors struggle to screw in light bulb.

Good job.

That's a good point.
I sometimes work with MD/PhD (we call 'em "mud-phud") researchers. Some of them are pretty good in the laboratory; some of them -- are not

Joey_V

motorhead43026 wrote: »

I am impressed, I assumed most doctors struggle to screw in light bulb.

Good job.

Hahaha thanks

adb3da wrote: »

I'm forgetting now...what speakers are in this room?

That's being finalized as there might be one revision coming.

kharp1

mrbiron wrote: »

Please stop using the word "Studs" when marking a ceiling. You hurt my brain
Joists (flooring system) or rafters (roofing system) are the words you should be using. Studs are in walls.

I don't want to sound argumentative or arrogant, but, as I catch my reflection in the mirror and notice my 5'9", 225lbs of hairy manlyness, I can't help but think there's at least one stud sitting in this recliner!

kharp1

On a serious note, great thread Joey. I appreciate the pics and descriptions of your work. Been contemplating ceiling treatments and wondering what all was involved.