What direction is mid to high end audio heading? Without cables? With Cables?

erniejade

As I sit here chatting with @DSkip about yes..... another cable thing...... to maybe change my speaker cables, I thought to myself why? Now don't get me wrong, I am a cables matter person and can hear the difference on my rig usually quickly when I swap things in and out but, with all the powered / "wireless" or almost wireless stuff out there, why am I considering spending on cables instead of a powered system?

Why spend another $$$$$$$$$$$ on speaker cables or even amplifiers anymore? In my eyes, some of the home audio is basically doing what Pro audio has done for a while and that is powered speakers. Some of the more known players like Dynaudio and Kef are making some darn good sounding mid to high end speakers that are powered and have built in Dac or a way to connect an external USB dac right to the speaker. A usb cable and whatever is connecting the 2 speakers ( so far it looks like cat 6) and power is basically whatever is left . Some even have built in wifi. If you cannot live without tubes, hook your tube preamp up to it.

I heard the "wireless" Kef wireless ls50 and it sounded great especially at its price point. I can Imagine the Dyn's Focus XD or excite would sound good also. I have a friend that bought a set of Studio Monitor JBL 308 and again for the $ I was quite surprised. Is powered going to be where mid / high end is leading?


I am going to take my situation as an example. Pricing will be all used market pricing also.
A room that has been hard to work with, an amp I can sell for 3800-4k, a pre that I can sell for 2800, speaker cables, sell the cd player and the vi dac, buy some powered Dyn's or Kef or even studio monitors like genelec or Adam, use my Lumin to stream to the speakers and pocket the rest?

Even in a bigger room, more and more powered floor standing speakers are showing up on the market.

I know everyone's situation is different and there will not be a wrong or right answer on any of this but I am always open to everyone's opinion. What do you think 5 years down is going to bring? 10 years down?

[Deleted User]

Wireless baby! I was just looking at some wireless monitors from Yamaha this morning. Pretty slick.
I've READ were people in the know think monitors sound better
but us audiophiles like that mix and match control.

erniejade

Skip, I do agree with you on the digital will get outdated but, because most of the ones being produced do have rca inputs, you can just put your own dac right to the speaker or whatever piece you want right to the speaker. I can see advantages for having the manufacture have an amp voiced for the speaker. Like you said, the amp and speakers wouldn't get outdated but, if the digital portion did, dac to the rca in.



@DonnerUndBlitzen Something like the Kef basically has a built in preamp if your going all digital and if your not, you would pre output to it and take place of your amp. Having the input helps it not fully become obsolete.

The wireless is a nice feature but, I am still surprised the few companies that made the wireless speakers didn't go above 24bit / 96kHz.

I am not going to jump on the band wagon for the wireless portion unless it hits high rez but, the idea of the speaker / amp combo is appealing to me.

Joey_V

Good points. Straight connect or wireless. Definitely possibilities in the future.

rpf65

Wireless speakers will become a bigger part of the market. I can see them replacing the traditional speakers in HTIB systems, when the price point of producing them justifies it, for instance.

Will they replace traditional speakers? I'm sure there are some people who think so. I'm also at one time there were people who thought the I Pod would replace the home system also. Pretty sure that isn't going to happen.

Could be that manufacturers will kill the idea of wireless speakers themselves. May be intentionally, by just a few participating in the market. Could also be having propriety wireless technology, or worse being like the current AVR type industry. Just making products obsolete within the first year of release by coming up with some new standard or other.

Wireless speakers will be like any other technology. If they can make a wireless speaker that performs as good, or better than traditional speakers, then traditional speakers will become a niche market. Otherwise it will be the wireless speakers becoming a niche market.

Personally I wouldn't advise you to start selling of your gear just yet.

tonyb

Basically what your seeing Brian, is manufacturers throwing crap against a wall to see what sticks.

Personally I was never a fan of built in amps on speakers, or anything else for that matter. Your handcuffed to the quality of whatever is built in.

When you start to do that, making a speaker do the job of other components, most likely your cutting corners elsewhere to stay within a marketing price point. Your not putting the best quality in anything that's an all in one product, least at prices an average joe can afford.

Think about receivers, how they went from 2 channel to HT and the quality of both. A receiver acting as a swiss army knife never sounds as good as separates. A speaker acting as a pre/amp/dac....takes away all your flexibility to tailor the sound to your liking. Also, when something malfunctions, you going to ship speakers around the country to get worked on, hoping you don't get PFB's delivery guy ? That would get expensive and the risks high.

Might work for smallish bookies, not floor standers though.

mhardy6647

tonyb wrote: »

Basically what your seeing Brian, is manufacturers throwing crap against a wall to see what sticks.

Personally I was never a fan of built in amps on speakers, or anything else for that matter. Your handcuffed to the quality of whatever is built in.
...

Not just quality per se, I'd opine -- one gets handcuffed to what the company and/or its designers thinks is opimal sound. I don't think there's a single company that has a soup-to-nuts handle on "ideal" sound for even their target market (ahem, I am lookin' at you, McIntosh! )

E.g., I don't think there's yet been a hardware manufacturer who really "understood" loudspeakers, even though - like a blind pig finding truffles - the 'big names' in hardware have produced occasional great loudspeakers.

OK I am prattling. Suffice it to say "I agree".

mhardy6647

Ironically, one of the local vacuum tube hifi gurus shared this YT link (which I hadn't seen before) with me earlier today. This provides deep insight into the development & the marketing of hifi, I think

https://youtu.be/pujXTj4X_I4

heiney9

DSkip wrote: »

On that note (thanks for reminding me Tony), I've never liked the idea of powered speakers either. Here is the issue: if the plate amp or electronics attached to the speaker go bad, and you can't source the parts, what are you going to do? You've got two big arse paperweights.

Not only that, and that's would be a big issue for me. Doubt there is a powered speaker or they are rare that has a decent high end amp in it. Like Pass, McCormack, Boulder, or many others. The amps are usually D class for size, weight and minimal heat.

That would be a HUGE turn off for me. I want to be able to choose my electronics, my cables, etc.

erniejade

While I agree on all points, the manufactures have built in DSP built into them as well as apps to customize the sound for your room or your taste. For floor speakers, the Dynaudio Focus 60 or 600 DX';s are getting some great reviews. They are a 6k speaker. computeraudiophile.com/content/744-dynaudio-focus-600-xd-loudspeaker-review/


For my home rig, I did settle for a all in one solution dac and streamer combo with the Lumin D1 and sbooster power supply and so far I have no regrets especially after I put a wireword silver 7 on it. I keep going between the Lumin and the VI Dac and the Lumin actually seems to have a bit more soul to it.

My DJ rig, I went powered 12 or 13 years ago when they started making powered PA speakers that were lighter weight, and could keep up with my old 120 lb tops and amp racks. With the rig I have used in the last 7 years, I cut my load in time in 1/2, because of the built in processing, got rid of dbx unit and amp racks, have enough sound to go over a football field and it all fits into a Toyota mini van. Some of the bigger companies ( JBL, Mackie) have built in wifi with full dsp that runs on an Ipad.

Now I am not saying I am jumping on board with any of the all in one solutions but, just looking at what is out now got me thinking what does the next few years bring.

This really did start with me being on the fence on changing speaker cables. I got a line on a good deal but still on the fence since they are only 6 feet. In my room the cables would work out great but, when the kids are out of the house and go to another room, if I go to a bookie instead of a floor stander, 6 feet will not be enough. The wire will be hanging in the air since you need to account for a good 1.5 to 2 feet up in the air with wires on a bookie. Then I thought to myself, for a little bit more then the wire, I could get the Kef or Dyn's, sell the amp and double barrel AZ cables, and pocket around $2500. I could still keep the Joule and run it into the Kef if I wanted. When I change rooms, I will most likely change speakers anyway so,,,, what am I really out? I could sell the Kef or Dyn's, have $2500 waiting for an amp or different speakers and I wouldn't be out much or anything at all. Im not saying this is what I am doing but, the thought keeps crossing my mind.

tonyb

I'm not saying it can't be done, or even shouldn't, but is it a wise purchase for a speaker that does many other jobs. Much the same way I don't like dacs that want to be pre-amps too. Adding a dedicated pre will almost always improve your sound.

I think what they are trying to do is emphasize the simplicity of an all in one product. Much like a HT receiver does today, Bose has done, The emphasis is of course on the benefits, less cables, less hunting up gear to synergize, less room to take up. Those don't always equate to better sound though, if that's the goal.

To some, sound is a secondary goal to aesthetics, or ease of use/less room a system takes up, maybe that's what they are banking on to drive future audio sales. Also price points, I don't see selling a lot of all in one speaker systems that will fit into todays spendable incomes. Not ones of quality anyway.

So the end result is always going to be a compromised product, in quality and sound, unless you want to spend big bucks.

Another example would be the Musical Fidelity CDPRE, a disc spinner, dac, pre all wrapped up into one neat package. They tried making a quality one, and for the most part it was. Except few were willing to shell out for it and you saw prices plummet even on the used markets. I think placing the dac function and pre function into a speaker is a doomed business plan from the onset. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't even entertain the thought of buying one. Just having built in amps is a hard sell to me.

Could also be speaker makers are looking for ways to incorporate their product into the digital/streaming age, sort of a hub device for all your devices audio wise. TV manufacturers are doing the same thing, but.....do any of us actually use them for that purpose when quality audio is the goal ?

txcoastal1

ELAC has been building active speakers for awhile now. @Wardsweb (Luther) brought a pair of the AM150's (now AM200) to Skips and we played with them at Luthers house gathering. They had a real nice sound. ELAC's Air-X series actives actually use class A/B plate amps.

erniejade

The Kef I believe is AB to the tops and D to the bottom. I am not sure on the Dyn's.

mhardy6647

txcoastal1 wrote: »

ELAC has been building active speakers for awhile now. @Wardsweb (Luther) brought a pair of the AM150's (now AM200) to Skips and we played with them at Luthers house gathering. They had a real nice sound. ELAC's Air-X series actives actually use class A/B plate amps.

Sure they can sound nice -- they'll sound pretty much exactly that nice no matter what else you do, though.

I look at loudspeakers as pretty durable technology (hard as the marketeers try to convince us otherwise) -- it's the upstream stuff that's technologically more plastic (in the literal sense of the word). Metastable, that is.

heiney9

A/B amps can be pretty mediocre as well. They still have a size constraint and need to run cool and I can't imagine they have a world class power supply section. It's still a compromised piece for those of us looking for that last 10-15%.

Not saying they won't appeal to many people, but not to most of us.

H9

tonyb

mhardy6647 wrote: »

txcoastal1 wrote: »

ELAC has been building active speakers for awhile now. @Wardsweb (Luther) brought a pair of the AM150's (now AM200) to Skips and we played with them at Luthers house gathering. They had a real nice sound. ELAC's Air-X series actives actually use class A/B plate amps.

Sure they can sound nice -- they'll sound pretty much exactly that nice no matter what else you do, though.

I look at loudspeakers as pretty durable technology (hard as the marketeers try to convince us otherwise) -- it's the upstream stuff that's technologically more plastic (in the literal sense of the word). Metastable, that is.

Hey now, stop using those 5 buck words to a .39 cent crowd.

mhardy6647

The US Gummint paid good money for me to learn them big words.

[Deleted User]

Use guys are proving my point about control.

Active speakers have advantages as well. The send the power needed
to the right driver. The amp and speakers made to sound good together!
I would suggest that active speakers are more efficient in the crossovers
and to suggest Class D amps can't sound as good or better than A is
misguided.

I'm not suggesting this is the case w/ powered speakers.

[Deleted User]

I demoed a pair of KEF LS50 wireless for a few days and thought they sounded great in a small room. The software was a bit wonky but they should have that straightened out with further updates. Supposedly, they out perform the passive LS50s. For two grand, they are hard to beat. I don't know how credibie this guy is, but he sure liked them.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/12/kef-ls50-wireless-review-dars-product-of-the-year-2016/

[Deleted User]

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/scm45a-pro/

love to get my hands on a pair of these.

fake speaker news! It had to happen

Joey_V

There are always exception to the rule: No integrative solutions.

I agree, I am a tweaker to the max.

But I think there are a few examples where I bet the integrated solution would be superb.

[Deleted User]

Joey_V wrote: »

There are always exception to the rule: No integrative solutions.

I agree, I am a tweaker to the max.

But I think there are a few examples where I bet the integrated solution would be superb.

If you get chance, give the LS50W a listen. I'd be interested in your opinion.

tonyb

rednedtugent wrote: »

Use guys are proving my point about control.

Active speakers have advantages as well. The send the power needed
to the right driver. The amp and speakers made to sound good together!
I would suggest that active speakers are more efficient in the crossovers
and to suggest Class D amps can't sound as good or better than A is
misguided.

I'm not suggesting this is the case w/ powered speakers.

They certainly do have advantages, none that interest me though. An amp and speaker made to sound good together....by who's viewpoint ? The manufacturer ? I want one that sounds good to me, who cares about what others think. The only way to do that is to have control of the shebang yourself. Yes...no ?

I personally haven't heard a big variety of class D amps, but from what I have heard....simply no way in my opinion is it even a race with a quality class A design. Just my opinion of course, I know a lot of guys dig the class D sound.

That said, a lot of higher end speakers are now being driven by internal class D amplification. How they sound, haven't heard the big dogs yet so I can't comment but they get rave reviews. Then again if I had a nickel for everything that had a rave review and I thought was mediocre at best, I could afford Joey's system. The concept will certainly appeal to some but as a whole I think it's a doomed model....least with floor standers, bookies is another story.

.....and before anyone goes monkey crazy on me, I do realize that Legacy Audio has gone that route with some models, which I'm not crazy about but I'll have to withhold judgement until I can get an ear on some.

Emlyn

Klipsch started marketing a complete home theater system last year with amps integrated into full sized speakers and up to 7.2 surround output by a central controller that generates its own WiFi:

http://www.klipsch.com/products/reference-premiere-hd-wireless#hd-control-center

Of course every speaker still has to be powered from a wall socket, which to me sort of defeats the purpose of having a "wireless" system. And, the system will not run full quality sound from a Blu-Ray in TrueHD or DTS MA. I think that's caused by a limitation in the WiFi standard.

Powered monitors have had a place for a long time in studio recording settings. They are usually not working over WiFi though. For home use, I'd stick with a powered subwoofer and run speaker cable to speakers from an amp.

Joey_V

TForan wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

There are always exception to the rule: No integrative solutions.

I agree, I am a tweaker to the max.

But I think there are a few examples where I bet the integrated solution would be superb.

If you get chance, give the LS50W a listen. I'd be interested in your opinion.

I'll remember to inform you @TForan

My dealer is getting kef in

txcoastal1

You have to take in consideration the sizes of homes/townhomes/apts in Europe and in big cities in the US.

erniejade

txcoastal1 wrote: »

You have to take in consideration the sizes of homes/townhomes/apts in Europe and in big cities in the US.

Agree 100% on that. Just think an auralic mini, and a set of Kef or Dyn's powered wifi and your cell phone, and your smaller condo, office, beach house, is all set. Want to tweak it up, get a better power supply for the Mini.

Bigger can go with the Dyn's larger XD's or add a sub to the Kef but the rest still applies. Again, want to tweak, add a tube preamp to it or even a turntable.


Again, I have heard the LS50 wireless. It was impressive for it's size and price point. I would still put a sub on it but that's just my taste in sound. The dsp did a good job on it.

I also agree, it is not 100% wireless. There is still power and a cable that connects the 2 speakers together.


I think once the wifi / dac portion can do high res and MAQ, we might see a lot more of this kind of stuff on the market.

mhardy6647

tonyb wrote: »

...

They certainly do have advantages, none that interest me though. An amp and speaker made to sound good together....by who's viewpoint ? The manufacturer ? I want one that sounds good to me, who cares about what others think. The only way to do that is to have control of the shebang yourself. Yes...no ?
...

'zackly so.
The Richard Feynman school of thought.

rpf65

Why would you want to invest money into quality speakers and use a cell phone as a source?

Seems to be wireless speakers will be used to just get rid of wires, you still need a quality source or your defeating the whole purpose of buying mid/high end speakers. The sq would be to degraded to justify the expense.