Playing with "Full Range" speakers

Polkaguy58

I was out flea marketing last weekend and picked up an old pair of Realistic 4" full range speakers. (post Foster 103's)
This morning I dug deep into the speaker closet and pulled out a pair of what might've been Heathkit hi-fi cabs from the early 60's (another flea market find).
These cabinets are extremely well made, with walnut veneer over pine board and real laquered cane grills.
Although they were originally fitted with 8" whizzer drivers, I had made some adapters years ago that brought the mounting hole down to 4".
They sound incredibly good for throw together speakers, especially when combined with my NHT sub and Harman Kardon 330C receiver.
I'm thinking I might just splurge for a pair of Fostex 4" bamboo drivers to up the game even further.

Nightfall

@mhardy6647

voltz

Doc Hardy got me into Full range Speakers

I have my DIY Back loaded horn speakers

then I bought these Omegs super 7 full ranger..both are crossover less. and around 94-95 dbl

mhardy6647

I'd be embarrassed to tell you all how many of the Radio Shack 40-1197/Fostex FE-104 4" "fullrange" drivers are loitering around various nooks & crannies at the ol' manse.

Here's one modern pair, of the Fostex kind.

049 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Polkaguy58

Nice !
I had the 6.5" Fostex speakers also, but there was a shout in the mids that hurt my ears, so I sold them.
The type of cabs that you have to build to work well with those drivers is way too big for my little apartment.
I seem to prefer using smaller drivers with a sub and have had my share of Foster 103's.
I'll get me some again someday.
Since I posted this afternoon, I cheated and pulled out my equalizer to tame these latest mongrel speakers and am quite happy with the outcome.
This is one of my kitchen stereos.
My KLH Model 21 radio has a home built passive bandpass sub that runs off of the extension speaker outlet in the back of it.
(Which just happens to be a Cambridge Audio sub)
It crosses over at 130 Hz and blends perfectly with the radio.
My guitar customers constantly ask what's playing and freak when I point to the little KLH table radio.

mhardy6647

The (erstwhile) shielded Fostex drivers (FE-167E and FE-207E) have Qts high enough (barely) to work in a bass reflex enclosure and, to my ears, are less aggressive (better balanced), even in a BR, compared to (more or less) appropriately baffled FE-166E/FE-206E. I don't have any experience with the more e$oteric Fostex FR drivers, though (in any sort of enclosure).

Recent chatter on the topic of "Fostex shout" (including something of a repudiation of my assessment of "appropriate baffling" for the above-mentioned drivers, in full & complete disclosure):

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/17/176273.html

I know I've said the above before & shared pictures like this before but I still (really) like these little loudspeakers and will tout them whenever I can leverage an opportunity.

DSC_5663 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(photo taken in the fall of 2012, before the hifi room had silted in with all of the junk from the MA house)

info on the Fostexes above (from 2003) @:

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=bottlehead&n=69642&highlight=Fostex+mrh+Mark+Hardy&search_url=/default.mpl?searchtext=Fostex&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=mrh+%28Mark+Hardy%29&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=ALL

msg

This is how you know you're a true audio junkie
Same goes for multiple bathroom systems

Polkaguy58 wrote: »

This is one of my kitchen stereos.

Jim Shearer

Polkaguy58 wrote: »

Nice !
I had the 6.5" Fostex speakers also, but there was a shout in the mids that hurt my ears, so I sold them.
The type of cabs that you have to build to work well with those drivers is way too big for my little apartment.

As the drivers get larger, the requisite cabinet can get large in a hurry! Here is one of my designs/builds for the Fostex FF225WK. The base is 25" deep and it's about 41" tall. Note that this driver doesn't have a whizzer cone, so its response fades by 8 KHz. Note the Eminence APT-80 sitting on top, XOed w/ a 1 microfarad cap; also note that it does not point toward the listener, as phase relationships would be untenable between drivers if aimed at the listener. The tweeter now sits behind the speaker, facing the ceiling!

Polkaguy58

It might be cool to point the tweeter into a corner and see what the reflected sound would be like.
So far this last speaker project has cost me 28 dollars total.
After some EQing and sub phase adjustments, I've got a real winner here!
The sub is an old 80's NHT passive unit, in piano gloss black, which I added ball & claw furniture feet to.
I power it with a Velodyne amp that I built into it's own vented box which pulls air up from the cold floor and with the help of natural convection, exits out the top to keep it cool.
My next step is to manufacture some custom length braided cables for the equalizer, as I'm using what I could find in the closet at the present.
If I can stumble upon some Realistic Solo series speakers in the future, I may replace the current drivers with those.

Wardsweb

There is a magic with full range high efficiency speakers when paired with a nice tube amp. Here are Omega 7 full range speakers and some of my DIY tube gear; 6H30 preamp and 2A3 amplifier.

Nightfall

That is one gorgeous dresser, of all the things that I could have commented on in that picture that's what drew my eyes.

Wardsweb

Nightfall wrote: »

That is one gorgeous dresser, of all the things that I could have commented on in that picture that's what drew my eyes.

Actually it is a breakfront. It is in our formal dining room. The top is marble. Works great as an audio stand.

Polkaguy58

Wardsweb wrote: »

Nightfall wrote: »

That is one gorgeous dresser, of all the things that I could have commented on in that picture that's what drew my eyes.

Actually it is a breakfront. It is in our formal dining room. The top is marble. Works great as an audio stand.

Well the systems look yummy, so I guess it's a fitting place to put them on.
I've only ventured into tubes once, when someone traded me a nice gold colored Scott amp for one of my guitars in the 90's.
I liked the simplicity of my Marantz seperates better at the time and really couldn't find a spot for another piece of equipment, so I sold it off.

I just finished up making my braided patch cords for the equalizer and only burnt one finger.
I took two 3 footer's, cut them in half and soldered on some new ends that I picked up at the music store today.
Now I have four 1 1/2' cords.
Everything sounds great..............until I find the next mod that is.
Here's a picture of an old Silverton tube amp that I restored.

Polkaguy58

That amp I posted was half of a 50's hi-fi system, the other half being a reel to reel tape machine.
I got it dirt cheap, cleaned it up nice and converted it to a guitar amp.
Some guy gladly gave me 250 dollars for it.

K_M

We have a few of these old Radio shack speakers, pretty sure older than the Minimus 7 speakers, with a 4" full range speaker in them.

Honestly they sound better in some ways than the minimus 7 even though they have no tweeter in them.

Polkaguy58

K_M wrote: »

We have a few of these old Radio shack speakers, pretty sure older than the Minimus 7 speakers, with a 4" full range speaker in them.

Honestly they sound better in some ways than the minimus 7 even though they have no tweeter in them.

That's the ealier model of the ones that I robbed for my newest speaker project.
Your's probably have the better Japan made drivers.
Mine were the later vinyl clad korean made ones.
I didn't waste the cabinets though, but inserted a pair of Pioneer coaxial car speakers and gave them to a friend.

txcoastal1

Bob Brine has really good sounding designs with his full range speakers. I've gotten my ears on several of his speakers.
http://brinesacoustics.com/Products.html
http://brinesacoustics.com/Design_Philosophy.html
http://brinesacoustics.com/Articles.html

mhardy6647

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Bob Brines has really good sounding designs with his full range speakers. I've gotten my ears on several of his speakers.
http://brinesacoustics.com/Products.html
http://brinesacoustics.com/Design_Philosophy.html
http://brinesacoustics.com/Articles.html

Let me put in a good word, also, for Bob Brines. One of his early designs was a mass loaded folded, tapered quarter wave tube (ML TQWT) for the venerable (and surprisingly good) Radio Shack 40-1354 5-1/4" pincushion frame twincone "fullrange" driver. This enclosure was certainly inspired by (if perhaps not designed directly in accordance with) Martin J King's work on TQWTs and similar enclosure approaches (see [html]www.quarter-wave.com[/html]) -- and it is good.

I am proud owner of a pair, built by my woodworker/friend Mike Berg (who does this stuff for a living, although I am not sure how many of his customers, besides me, have contracted with him for loudspeaker cabinets).
DSCN5289 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

DSC_6398 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(photo taken before there was so much crud in the hifi room!)

Probably goes without saying that Mike built the Duplex cabinets, too The... umm... rather severe aesthetics of these two pairs of enclosures was my choice; he can make pretty stuff, too Very pretty stuff.

codycatalist

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Probably goes without saying that Mike built the Duplex cabinets, too The... umm... rather severe aesthetics of these two pairs of enclosures was my choice; he can make pretty stuff, too Very pretty stuff.

Honestly Mike I love the look of those cabs. Simple but elegant at the same time.

Polkaguy58

Here's a few pics of "The Kitchen System", or one of them anyway.

mhardy6647

hk330C -- nice little receiver with laudably elegant cosmetics. Widely paired with Polk Monitor 7s for entry level hifi in the Baltimore area back in my college years.

Glad to see you went with the ice cream-proof finish on those NHTs

Scan0012 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Wardsweb

I haven't seen a rotary dial phone in years. I remember having a very long cord on our and we would string that thing out into the next room.

Polkaguy58

mhardy6647 wrote: »

hk330C -- nice little receiver with laudably elegant cosmetics. Widely paired with Polk Monitor 7s for entry level hifi in the Baltimore area back in my college years.

Glad to see you went with the ice cream-proof finish on those NHTs

Scan0012 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Yep, I got that from a guy who bought it from an old couple's estate sale. (complete with paperwork).
I also had a 730 Twin once that I really liked, in spite of what appeared to be a hacksaw cut across one corner.......but hey, it worked and cost me 25 dollars.
That ice cream gag is a funny prop I picked up somewhere, then added the ice cream container (I had to eat that whole pint unfortunately) and the fake Oreo cookie.
If you haven't noticed by my kitchen decor, I tend to have off kilter taste. (I call that wall, the "West Wing" of the apt.)
Oh, and that rotary phone is fully functional and from my childhood home from the 60's.
(The East Wing and my guitar work bench)

mhardy6647

Wardsweb wrote: »

I haven't seen a rotary dial phone in years. I remember having a very long cord on our and we would string that thing out into the next room.

Several of 'em here (imagine that) None is currently on-line, though. Shelf queens, at least for the moment.

Polkaguy58

Having fun with my equalizer this afternoon.
It's amazing what a tiny boost (or decrease) in frequecy can acheive with a 4" speaker.
I added a bit on the 125 to meet the sub halfway, dropped the 500 a notch to decrease the boxiness, added some 1000 for the kick drums, took the 7000 spike down a few and added some 16000 for sparkle.
CHICAGO never sounded so good !

codycatalist

Polkaguy58 wrote: »

Having fun with my equalizer this afternoon.
It's amazing what a tiny boost (or decrease) in frequecy can acheive with a 4" speaker.
I added a bit on the 125 to meet the sub halfway, dropped the 500 a notch to decrease the boxiness, added some 1000 for the kick drums, took the 7000 spike down a few and added some 16000 for sparkle.
CHICAGO never sounded so good !

I wonder the effect it has on full range drivers. I used to play with my EQ all the time but after joining the forum I just leave everything at flat, I love it.

Polkaguy58

codycatalist wrote: »

Polkaguy58 wrote: »

Having fun with my equalizer this afternoon.
It's amazing what a tiny boost (or decrease) in frequecy can acheive with a 4" speaker.
I added a bit on the 125 to meet the sub halfway, dropped the 500 a notch to decrease the boxiness, added some 1000 for the kick drums, took the 7000 spike down a few and added some 16000 for sparkle.
CHICAGO never sounded so good !

I wonder the effect it has on full range drivers. I used to play with my EQ all the time but after joining the forum I just leave everything at flat, I love it.

Oh, I'm still in play mode on this project.
You have to remember, I threw these speakers together out of what I had in the closet.
The cabinets were not tuned to the drivers that are in there now.
Originaly there were 8" drivers, now there are 4" ones.

This system powers my Keyboard also and I found out a little while ago, that I couldn't run both the equalizer and the keyboard, because there's not enough inputs on the Harmon Kardan. (the keys go into Tape Mon.)
I ditched the EQ and to save the tiny drivers from getting cooked from the percussive hits of my keyboard, I hooked them up through the sub, dialing it up to 150 Hz.
That'll buffer them from the lowest notes.
It also takes the guess work out of where to bridge the sub crossover.
Anything over 130 Hz is good.

mhardy6647

My favorite-est 4" "FR" is still, I think, the (long-gone) PartsExpress 269-469 "69 cent wonder". Nice, nice tone and very capable little driver.

This thread piqued my memory (can memory be piqued?)

My first experiment with a pair used a pair of repurposed boxes that had previously been 10" sealed box two-ways. I cut adapters for the 4" and stuck it in the woofer hole, and left the tweeter holes (which had previously held CTS phenolic surround cone tweeters) to serve as 'ports'. Very scientific.

The drivers sounded great in those cabinets, though.

Later on, our son measured the T/S parameters of a pair of 269-469s and designed and built 'optimal' sealed & ported boxes for 'em based on his measurements for a high school science project. Only netted him a fourth-place finish :-/ but it did result in a nice pair of speakers (the ported morph got the nod).

They are currently residing here -- I think I might pull 'em out and listen to 'em later tonight, come to think of it...

P1020270 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

More on these remarkable little drivers...

http://ratch-h.com/69centwonder.html
http://ratch-h.com/farm.html

Polkaguy58

mhardy6647 wrote: »

My favorite-est 4" "FR" is still, I think, the (long-gone) PartsExpress 269-469 "69 cent wonder". Nice, nice tone and very capable little driver.

This thread piqued my memory (can memory be piqued?)

My first experiment with a pair used a pair of repurposed boxes that had previously been 10" sealed box two-ways. I cut adapters for the 4" and stuck it in the woofer hole, and left the tweeter holes (which had previously held CTS phenolic surround cone tweeters) to serve as 'ports'. Very scientific.

The drivers sounded great in those cabinets, though.

Later on, our son measured the T/S parameters of a pair of 269-469s and designed and built 'optimal' sealed & ported boxes for 'em based on his measurements for a high school science project. Only netted him a fourth-place finish :-/ but it did result in a nice pair of speakers (the ported morph got the nod).

They are currently residing here -- I think I might pull 'em out and listen to 'em later tonight, come to think of it...

P1020270 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

More on these remarkable little drivers...

http://ratch-h.com/69centwonder.html
http://ratch-h.com/farm.html

I'm still not quite sure what kind of cabinets these are.
They're a box within a box, with a large vent in the rear.
The sound deadening material was placed to the back of the box and on one sidewall only. (the other speaker's on the opposite sidewall)
One of my favorite full range drivers is the KLH 4.5", like in the Model 21 radio.
I just bought a pair, in cabinets for $2.00, but one has coil rub, or I'd have gone with those.
These sound pretty good the way they are and I'll keep hunting for better replacements in the future............because we all know, "it's the thrill of the hunt" that matters.

mhardy6647

Yes that little KLH "FR" driver is/was very nice. Kind of sketchy looking, but good sounding.

I picked up another KLH 21 this past summer while we were helping our son move to Farmville, VA. Pretty good cosmetically (better than the one I already had) and $27; I couldn't resist it It has P/S hum so I need to replace some capacitors.

Polkaguy58

Henry was a smart man and way ahead of the curve in his time.
I like how he had the fiberglass acoustic treatment sewn up into little burlap pillow cases.
Those radio's sound great all by themselves, but run a passive sub off of the aux speaker and cross it over at 130 Hz.
Hide the sub under a desk and amaze your friends !
I found a bandpass type Cambride Soundworks sub on the curbside one day and strapped it onto my scooter to bring it home.
When I tested it, I found that one of the 6 1/2" woofers was dead inside.
I removed it and silicone glued a circular piece of corregated cardboard over the hole, leaving just the one woofer and it's low pass filter inside.
I added a Fender Stratocaster guitar backplate with some newly installed binding posts in place of the factory in/out speaker terminals and hooked it up to my Model 21.
It was a match made in heaven !
A little curiosity, combined with a dash of blind luck, can sometimes be a good thing.