Excited for a speaker demo tomorrow, accompanying my friend

Joey_V

Right now, just got home from work.

Sitting here listening to my system.

Zero desire to upgrade. Q7 be dam*ed.

Although the Q7 is spectacular.

megasat16

Joey_V wrote: »

Mega

I wonder if it's room dependent. I am very particular about lower registers and it was just quick as all get out. No doubt a pair of gothams would plumb lower, but I was 100% satisfied at that point. The room that this was in, was superb.

Yes, could be the room. But I made one serious flaw in my previous post. I heard the S7 and not the Q7MKII. So, totally different speakers there. Well, the Gotham would still helps. I will take time to visit Scott Walker to hear the Q7MKII in the near future if time permits.

Joey_V

megasat16 wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

Mega

I wonder if it's room dependent. I am very particular about lower registers and it was just quick as all get out. No doubt a pair of gothams would plumb lower, but I was 100% satisfied at that point. The room that this was in, was superb.

Yes, could be the room. But I made one serious flaw in my previous post. I heard the S7 and not the Q7MKII. So, totally different speakers there. Well, the Gotham would still helps. I will take time to visit Scott Walker to hear the Q7MKII in the near future if time permits.

Yes. Big difference.

WLDock

kharp1 wrote: »

Great review. I wouldn't even put myself through the torture of listening to something I couldn't afford to own without winning the lottery. It's make me want to go home and throw my "junk" in the garbage!

Don't do it! If you go to an F1 race, don't go home and donate your Vette to the Goodwill!

I actually listed to both the Q7, S5, and other ridiculous rigs at an audio show in CHI. Like others said, it good to see whats possible. Myself being a musician, l find that listening or playing live music in a Jazz club, orchestra hall, football arena, amphitheater, cathedral, recording studio, etc. a very moving experience. So, while listing to unattainable $100K-$300K rigs was nice, and nothing beats the intimacy of these systems in your home, I was not intimidated and live music is what it all is really about..... in my opinion.

Joey_V

WLDock wrote: »

kharp1 wrote: »

Great review. I wouldn't even put myself through the torture of listening to something I couldn't afford to own without winning the lottery. It's make me want to go home and throw my "junk" in the garbage!

Don't do it! If you go to an F1 race, don't go home and donate your Vette to the Goodwill!

I actually listed to both the Q7, S5, and other ridiculous rigs at an audio show in CHI. Like others said, it good to see whats possible. Myself being a musician, l find that listening or playing live music in a Jazz club, orchestra hall, football arena, amphitheater, cathedral, recording studio, etc. a very moving experience. So, while listing to unattainable $100K-$300K rigs was nice, and nothing beats the intimacy of these systems in your home, I was not intimidated and live music is what it all is really about..... in my opinion.

For me, now that I know how good it can be, it makes me appreciate what I have more. And I feel lucky to be at such a level.

[Deleted User]

megasat16 wrote: »

I think I agree that Q7 was that great except the part that you have damned the Gotham. Obviously, the dealer didn't had two of them to supplement the bass. I think the low bass in the Q7 to me was sloppy and mushy if that's a word to describe it. Anyway, to each it's own and time to buy 4 x 18" subs.

As per your earlier clarification, you were talking about the S7's. Fyi, apparently the newer S5 Mk2's 10" bass drivers are very different from the S7's. The S5 Mk2 also uses the same midrange driver as the new $75k M3, and benefits from a convex, 3D machined top plate first used in the M Pro. So in some important areas the S5 Mk2 may actually be a better speaker than the S7.

BlueFox

Let me add my two cents too this S7 vs S5v2 discussion.

I received an invite from Magico to come and listen to an S7 vs S5 demo. I think you also attended a similar session David. Anyway, I had Magico's demo room to myself, and Alon did a great job going back and forth between the S5v1 and the S7. As I have said before, the S7 was better, but not twice as good.

Now Magico has a state of the art demo room. When the door closes it is weird how quiet it is. My house is no where near that level, but it does get really good around 11PM, and that night at home I was thinking my S5s sound as good as the S7s. This was playing the same Patricia Barber tunes as at Magico.

So, while I would love to have the S7 or S5v2 if given to me, I am very, very happy with my S5s. My advice to people is find some used S5s, and enjoy.

Joey_V

So what you guys are saying is that the S5mk2 is potentially a better speaker pound for pound than the S7? I thought both came out at the same time, how is it that the 2 section S7 is superceded by the lower model?

BlueFox

The S7 came out before the S5v2. I was hoping the S5 could be upgraded to the v2, but no. I have no idea if the S5v2 is equal/better to the S7.

[Deleted User]

BlueFox wrote: »

The S7 came out before the S5v2. I was hoping the S5 could be upgraded to the v2, but no. I have no idea if the S5v2 is equal/better to the S7.

Imho the S7 is clearly better than the S5 Mk1; more open, coherent, smooth & resolving, goes deeper in the bass & has a bigger stage. Though they need a big room to really sing. The S5 Mk2 vs S7 would be a much closer contest. The physics of the S7 suggest it should be a better speaker overall, but the S5 mk2 is a newer design with some filter down technology from the M3. Vite la difference!

halo

kharp1 wrote: »

Great review. I wouldn't even put myself through the torture of listening to something I couldn't afford to own without winning the lottery. It's make me want to go home and throw my "junk" in the garbage!

I have to disagree. It gives you an idea of what's out there and what is considered to be hi-fi / hi-end equipment. You may hear it and be impressed or you may not; that's the subjectivity aspect.

I went to the AXPONA audio expo back in April and, while I didn't have anywhere near enough time to listen to everything, I did get my ears on some top tier gear. One of the set ups that day left a very positive impression on me and it is something I look forward to owning one day. I say that because it is within reach, just not at the moment. Other gear I heard didn't have the same impression on me even though the top tier equipment I heard is considered to be some of the finest out there. I also have to take into consideration that these demos took place in hotel rooms & hotel conference rooms so their acoustics may have been far less than ideal. We all have to start somewhere and it's good to have goals.

Joey_V

There is one regret I had with the q7 demo.

It was the bass I heard.

halo

Joey_V wrote: »

There is one regret I had with the q7 demo.

It was the bass I heard.

Time for a sub?

Joey_V

halo wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

There is one regret I had with the q7 demo.

It was the bass I heard.

Time for a sub?

I dunno... What I heard cannot be unheard.

WLDock

Joey_V wrote: »

I dunno... What I heard cannot be unheard.

Joey, I think if you find your sound in the highs, midrange, and midbass then obtaining the big, clean, weighted attack in the bass of the BIG show stopping towers is possible. Magico did a lot of custom work on the drivers. They get very high saturation in the motors with super low inductance (Le). The Q7 is "State of the Art"! However, one can spend BIG bucks on subs like the REL, JL Audio, etc that are know to be "Musical", and gain that added punch and clarity in the low end. I might have posted this before but this reviewer found that a couple of the JL e-subs mated with a $27K set of Raidho D-1 speakers mimicked his $200K reference system: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/jl-audio-gotham-subwoofer-and-cr-1-crossover/

Most of the musical midbass/subbass setups that I've heard made the sound of a bass drum and upright bass sound real with the natural resonance and overtones. Many of the SQ subs I've heard were low inductance, low moving mass, strong driver subs in a sealed system that were critically dampened with a low Qts response. I used to own an infinite baffle driver made by AE Speakers (Acoustic Elegance) that had a custom enhanced version of their Lambda Motor.

AE Speakers makes some sub drivers that I'm sure would offer one that clean yet low bass of some of these massive $100K and up towers. Especially, if running a couple of 12s, 15's's per side with some power and room correction....would play extremely clean for music with that much surface area! The SPB12 http://aespeakers.com/shop/sbp/sbp12/ with the Lambda motor upgrade:
[GREAT READ HERE on this low distortion motor] http://aespeakers.com/designing-for-low-distortion-lambda-001-motor/ I'm sure would please any audiophile out there that are after that dry, low Q, dampened, clean, fast attack type bass sound. Of course the room dictates whats possible and integration can make or break a sub system. Don't rule out having something made! I

Anyway, here is some good info on what Magico did to get their drivers to play to clean...similar goals in some ways to the AE Speakers Lambda motors.....

The drivers are designed for maximum magnetic field strength in the gap, low moving mass, and minimal inductance. In addition, Magico has also gone to extreme lengths to minimize eddy currents in the drivers. Eddy currents impede the motion of the voice coil by creating magnetic forces that oppose the voice-coil’s motion. Eddy currents are so effective in slowing down moving objects that train brakes are based on the phenomenon. One way of reducing eddy currents is by fully saturating the iron in the motor. If the iron is saturated, magnetic flux cannot be induced in the iron, and thus no opposing magnetic force is generated. Magico found just one facility in the world that could saturate the iron in the driver motors to their specification, and it happened to be in England. The drivers start life in Israel, are shipped to England, back to Israel, and then to the US. Magico’s Web site shows a pair of plots comparing the saturation of its 10” woofer with a “high-end” woofer.

I once witnessed a dramatic demonstration of eddy currents in which a steel ball-bearing was dropped through a steel tube not much bigger than the ball-bearing itself. The ball-bearing fell through the tube just as quickly as if it were falling through free air. But when the same size bearing, this one magnetized, was dropped through the tube, it took about ten times longer to traverse the tube than the unmagnetized ball-bearing. Looking into the tube from above with a flashlight, I could see the ball-bearing floating slowly downward. Why? The ball-bearing’s magnetism (and its movement through the tube) induced eddy currents in the tube, with those eddy currents creating their own magnetic field in opposition to the ball-bearing’s magnetic field, slowing the ball-bearing’s motion. The same thing happens in a loudspeaker motor; the induced eddy currents create a magnetic field that opposes the voice-coil motion. Reducing eddy currents has obvious benefits for a driver’s transient performance. This is particularly true when you consider that the faster the voice coil moves, the stronger the eddy currents and the greater the opposition to the voice coil’s motion.

Think of the voice coil sitting in a magnetic field with no current flowing through the voice coil. When alternating current from the power amplifier—the audio signal—flows through the coil, a magnetic field is temporarily created around that coil that varies in strength and polarity as an analog of the music. This varying magnetic field interacts with the driver’s fixed magnetic field, pushing and pulling the voice coil back and forth, and with it, the cone. It’s easy to see how the more powerful the fixed magnetic field, the lighter the voice coil and cone, and the lower the eddy currents, the faster and more easily the cone will respond to the musical signal. This not only results in superior transient behavior (the cone starts and stops more quickly) and better control over the cone motion by the amplifier, but also increases efficiency. It’s like a lightweight sports car outfitted with a huge-displacement engine that can instantly deliver high torque to the wheels when you depress the accelerator.

Joey_V

WLD

I agree with the assessment that proper subs would aide my system.

I worry about using it as a bandaid approach however. I am exploring getting the next level above my speaker which would put me at top of the line and perhaps that would be a better move rather than putting money in subs first.

The delta between mine and the next one up is about 10,000$. Subs like 2 Rel g1 would be close to 9,000$... So the difference in money is equal.

SCompRacer

WLDock wrote: »

Of course the room dictates whats possible and integration can make or break a sub system.

Total truth.

So to be a true audiophile you can't have subs in your two channel system? It's a bandaid approach? Really......

halo

Joey_V wrote: »

WLD

I agree with the assessment that proper subs would aide my system.

I worry about using it as a bandaid approach however. I am exploring getting the next level above my speaker which would put me at top of the line and perhaps that would be a better move rather than putting money in subs first.

The delta between mine and the next one up is about 10,000$. Subs like 2 Rel g1 would be close to 9,000$... So the difference in money is equal.

Is the frequency response of your current speakers + subs = to the next speaker up the line? Are you going to get deep bass / subsonic bass out of the next speakers / TOTL?

Perhaps your current speakers with the subs is going to be the more dynamic and impactfull over the $10k upgrade to another speaker plus you'll save yourself a cool $1k. You can send it to me as an advisory fee. lol.

Joey_V

SCompRacer wrote: »

WLDock wrote: »

Of course the room dictates whats possible and integration can make or break a sub system.

Total truth.

So to be a true audiophile you can't have subs in your two channel system? It's a bandaid approach? Really......

Nah, all I'm saying is that with subs, there is still something missing. The integration just isn't ideal IMO.

Bandaid approach only to me, it takes care of the low bass, but I worry I might miss out on some Midbass that a more optimized speaker tower might bring to the table.

That's why I called it a bandaid approach for my situation.

Joey_V

halo wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

WLD

I agree with the assessment that proper subs would aide my system.

I worry about using it as a bandaid approach however. I am exploring getting the next level above my speaker which would put me at top of the line and perhaps that would be a better move rather than putting money in subs first.

The delta between mine and the next one up is about 10,000$. Subs like 2 Rel g1 would be close to 9,000$... So the difference in money is equal.

Is the frequency response of your current speakers + subs = to the next speaker up the line? Are you going to get deep bass / subsonic bass out of the next speakers / TOTL?

Perhaps your current speakers with the subs is going to be the more dynamic and impactfull over the $10k upgrade to another speaker plus you'll save yourself a cool $1k. You can send it to me as an advisory fee. lol.

Victor-

Hi pal

I think the next step up has a warmer sound and better Midbass. The drivers are dual 10" with improved motor and diaphragm vs my current dual 8". The crossovers are also better from what I'm told.

I think it'll get me some of the bass I'm looking for and if it's still missing some, then oh well... Subs it is!

Joey_V

Either way though, I'm not in a rush. The sound I am getting is already spectacular.

I had to listen several times to make sure I wasn't dreaming.

Anything above this is gravy.

halo

Joey_V wrote: »

Victor-

Hi pal

I think the next step up has a warmer sound and better Midbass. The drivers are dual 10" with improved motor and diaphragm vs my current dual 8". The crossovers are also better from what I'm told.

I think it'll get me some of the bass I'm looking for and if it's still missing some, then oh well... Subs it is!

Is there a 20k option that will get you everything you want in one package? How was the bass on the Avior speakers? Was it lacking? Is it just the B & W that aren't giving you what you want in the low end but they have everything else covered? You can try to add one sub and see what happens...

I understand what you are saying. For the longest time, I wanted the full frequency range / response from my speakers themselves. I didn't want to add a sub because it didn't feel authentic to me. Like I was using tone controls or augmenting the bass artificially. I do see the benefit of having a sub, especially when the room has nodes or completely cancels out some of the low frequencies. Room treatments should help with that and if there's still an issue, a sub can be added. A sub can reveal details in music you never knew were there because most speakers don't dig that deep. I have a sub in my set up but I'm only using it for the HT right now. I tried it with music and it is too powerful in my apartment plus the speakers are digging really deep all on their own. This is dependent on where I'm sitting, of course. If I sit in the main listening position, the bass isn't as pronounced or accurate. If I sit in the ideal spot for listening to the low notes in the room it is insane how low the main speakers get down. I must be on the verge of pi$$ing off the neighbors. Add the sub + the mains and I'm going to get myself kicked out of the apartment building (and I'm not listening at very loud levels - 70 db peaks with most material in mid 60 db area).

Joey_V

The Rockports killed with bass. I mean killed it.

There is no 20k option as that's as high as the line goes. Going for Nautilus would be far costlier and I would have to demo it.

My speakers didn't feel deficient in any area until I heard the q7mk2. The one spot I thought was clearly amiss was bass... Like real bass.

Everywhere else, I could live without it.

Yes q7mk2 is probably more transparent... But at 207k up charge? No thanks bro

SCompRacer

I strongly disagree about subs not being able to provide accurate, articulate, real sounding and well integrated low bass. Since the space dictates what is going to happen with speakers, even adding a speaker that plays to +- 1.5dB at 20Hz, it does not mean you will get +- 1.5dB at 20Hz. Been there more than a few times.

mikeyb128

I find subwoofers to be an extension of my system, definitely not a band aid. I sacrificed bass response for better imaging and sound stage by pulling speakers out of the corners and away from walls. I then added two sealed subs and I swear the soundstage increased in width and depth. It is so incredibly dynamic, I've blown people away with it. I often read a true audiophile only uses full range speakers in a 2 channel system. But honestly all those guys are missing out on some great bass. If I sat you in my sweet spot with a blind fold I bet you would have no idea there are two subs in the room until I switched them off. My system is maybe 15k.. MAYBE, but sounds more like a 25k system. Those little svs subs are so fast, tight, and musical I can't imagine what a JL sounds like.

Joey_V

Well... I guess that's a good thing then. I look forward to completing the system in the future. Good points @SCompRacer @mikeyb128

[Deleted User]

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I find subwoofers to be an extension of my system, definitely not a band aid. I sacrificed bass response for better imaging and sound stage by pulling speakers out of the corners and away from walls. I then added two sealed subs and I swear the soundstage increased in width and depth. It is so incredibly dynamic, I've blown people away with it. I often read a true audiophile only uses full range speakers in a 2 channel system. But honestly all those guys are missing out on some great bass. If I sat you in my sweet spot with a blind fold I bet you would have no idea there are two subs in the room until I switched them off. My system is maybe 15k.. MAYBE, but sounds more like a 25k system. Those little svs subs are so fast, tight, and musical I can't imagine what a JL sounds like.

Accepting that there are many paths to audio nirvana, do you think i'd be missing out on great bass with my Magico S5 Mk2's? They dig down to 20Hz, and from what i've read, the 2 x 10" bass units are capable of 15mm linear movement (front to back) at full amplitude, so they can move a lot of air, but are also fast and well controlled. Just sayin' .

WLDock

Joey_V wrote: »

My speakers didn't feel deficient in any area until I heard the q7mk2. The one spot I thought was clearly amiss was bass... Like real bas

The room can play such an important part in the sound one gets.....I've played and listened to "real" bass instruments in different rooms and the sound can be SO different! I understand the audiophile school of thought in trying to keep things down to a simple full range 2 channel system. However, if the said system is not producing the desired low end response in the said room, than integrating subwoofers is not a band aid. The "BEST" speaker is a single point source playing the full spectrum.... however thats not going to happen in our lifetime! So, even recording engineers use subs for certain material.

If I were in your shoes or the "gotta have full range from two speakers, No Sub Audiophile snob", I would have to have large towers with large bass drivers. However, $200K is just insaine for speakers! However, something like the Legacy Aeris would be on the list! Two 12" drivers per side with 1000 watts, and room correction. A lot of speaker for $20K compared to some others out there. I'm really fond of these...heard them a couple of times. Look at the measurements:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/legacy-aeris-floorstanding-speaker-review/

In trying to find the limits of this sub, I ran the above test at 120 dB and 32 Hz. I found the limits of my room before the sub showed any signs of distress. And the amazing result was a distortion measurement of just 0.59%. This is the best low bass distortion reading of any full-range speaker I have ever tested and it just demonstrates why this system was capable of live sound pressure levels without audible strain.

The room-corrected frequency response is remarkably flat as one would expect. There is a little rise on both ends of the spectrum but this is probably one of the flattest curves I have ever measured from a full range speaker particularly when one considers it is an in-room measurement at the listening position.

WLDock

More on audiophiles and subs...

http://audiophilereview.com/subwoofers/what-audiophiles-are-getting-wrong-about-subwoofers.html

http://audiophilereview.com/room-acoustics/what-you-might-not-know----but-really-need-to-know----about-bass.html

mikeyb128

Bodhi wrote: »

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I find subwoofers to be an extension of my system, definitely not a band aid. I sacrificed bass response for better imaging and sound stage by pulling speakers out of the corners and away from walls. I then added two sealed subs and I swear the soundstage increased in width and depth. It is so incredibly dynamic, I've blown people away with it. I often read a true audiophile only uses full range speakers in a 2 channel system. But honestly all those guys are missing out on some great bass. If I sat you in my sweet spot with a blind fold I bet you would have no idea there are two subs in the room until I switched them off. My system is maybe 15k.. MAYBE, but sounds more like a 25k system. Those little svs subs are so fast, tight, and musical I can't imagine what a JL sounds like.

Accepting that there are many paths to audio nirvana, do you think i'd be missing out on great bass with my Magico S5 Mk2's? They dig down to 20Hz, and from what i've read, the 2 x 10" bass units are capable of 15mm linear movement (front to back) at full amplitude, so they can move a lot of air, but are also fast and well controlled. Just sayin' .

Well, for people that can't afford 40,000 dollar speakers a couple cheap svs subs will have to do.