How to blend in multiple subs? Multiple room eq?

Joey_V

Just thinking about adding subs to my 2ch system. I want it to be a seamless foundation rather than adding something overbloated, etc.

How do I run multiple subs with some EQ?

And can multiple subs with self-eq (like JL or Velodyne) run a sum total EQ (each one can tune to the room response, but can multiple at the same time)?

I'm hoping I can have a multitude of subs into the system to really lay the foundation. Although at this time, it is already sounding extremely good and balanced even in the lower registers.

Thnks guys

mikeyb128

I've been fairly involved into multiple subs for home theater for several years. Got into the 2 channel game, was anti-sub for a while, picked up a nice sealed sub as an experiment, now have 2. Played with lots of eq and it does help (mini dsp, anti mode, xt32 pro, with rew). Only sub I've used with its own onboard mic and eq was a polk micro pro 3000, which I didn't like what it did with its eq. My system sounded great, then I added a sub and was like, "holy crap I've been missing out." Dual subs is always the way to go!

If anything I've learned over the years is room treatment and proper placment trumps eq. Eq can only do so much in a troublesome room, both together are great, my dual PB ultras with xt32 sounds phenomenal. Yet my "small" 2 channel system with small subs and no eq, but with a **** ton of room treatment trumps it. I have spent countless hours moving the sub a little bit here, and a little bit there. If you have a dedicated room the end result is very rewarding.

Joey_V

Mikey

I've had experience with velodyne's DD series and I liked what it did for the sound when I was playing around with it (it was my brother's sub).... placed the microphone at listening position and ran the tones and it spat out the graph and we got to play with the graph in real time.

I just need something like that with multiple subs running at the same time.

Not sure if getting multiple Velodyne DD series 2 or JL Audio Fathoms would do the trick.

Otherwise, I'd look at REL G series or maybe take a few of the SVS SB13 Ultras if there was a good multi-sub EQ system that I could use.

A few SB 13 Ultras would be good.

txcoastal1

Joey
I have spoken to Rythmik in Austin a couple types about sub integration, and Will more than likely work with them.

I was originally looking at the JL Audio CR-1 crossover for the integration but here was Enrico's response....MiniDSP have even newer and improved models than the one he listed.

Ron,

I would hold on the CR-1 until you try the subwoofers with the onboard controls. The C4s play down to 30Hz but I would crossover around 50Hz to take some stress out of the speakers. In that case you can send full range signal to the speakers and full range signal to the subwoofers and set the low pass filter on the subwoofer at 50Hz/24 and the crossover on the subwoofer at 50Hz as well in order to get 50Hz with 24dB/octave slope. Then set proper delay/phase on the subwoofers. If you like the results, which I know you are gonna love it, you can save $3000 on the CR-1. Another option a little bit cheaper but IMHO more effective than the CR-1 is the miniDSP DDRC-88A which come with Dirac Live room correction system and can handle up to 8 channels. In your case you can have the two C4s + the pair of subwoofers and set delay/phase, levels and EQ for each one independently. The miniDSP DDCR-88A is $1000.

mikeyb128

All the subs you mentioned are awesome. I haven't heard the JL subs in person, with exception of the E series, which for the price I wasn't blown away by them. I had 2 SB ultras and wish I had kept them for music purposes. One day when I have the space I will get them back. EQ does work, for me though I have had better results with room treatment. It is nice to have eq that you can tinker with. Knowing myself, I obsess over details, so that is another rabbit hole I don't need. Hahaha

Joey_V

Mikey and Ron,

I appreciate the comments and tips.

Ron - explain it again to me in plain english - what exactly are these products you mention? Would I need an active cross over to cut out the bass on my towers?

Mikey - good point with the E series JL Audios. I know, all those subs I mentioned are good, would love to have any combo of them.

I am glad to hear you liked the SB13 Ultras as I think they might be a good value at that price point.

How many would make for a good set of SB13U?

I was thinking of getting 6 SVS SB13 Ultras. Just to keep the stress levels down on each sub but still have near infinite head room. I've seen rooms with a six pack of REL G1, but I don't think that would be a wise financial splurge. If I can get 95% of the foundation with 6 SVS SB13 Ultras as I would a six pack of REL G1, I would be a very happy camper.

The system is honestly sounding near fantastic at this point. All my hard work is paying off.

mikeyb128

Six?! Lol wish I could hear that... I had two in a fairly large room (20x20) and I was certain the glass mirror in the bathroom at the back of the room was going to break from the wall flexing. And this was in a basement on a cement slab.

Joey_V

Yeah six - haha. You had 2 right? I'm sure that was a difference from just 1.

I am in the process of acquiring a good size lot and will be building in the next 2-3 years (am going to take my time). I am looking to build a dedicated room with double sheetrock walls, etc... probably looking at 25x20 room. Definitely would need the six pack at that time... but could definitely start the process of integration in a few months. Maybe if things are good, would purchase the set early 2017.... I have a good relationship with my local dealer. I would buy all 6 and demo at home, then if ok, will keep all 6.

Maybe I can convince the wife that this is my birthday gift - ha.

WLDock

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Another option a little bit cheaper but IMHO more effective than the CR-1 is the miniDSP DDRC-88A which come with Dirac Live room correction system and can handle up to 8 channels. In your case you can have the two C4s + the pair of subwoofers and set delay/phase, levels and EQ for each one independently. The miniDSP DDCR-88A is $1000.

The MiniDSP units with the Dirac Room Live are powerful tools.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-room-correction/ddrc-24-for-2-1-system
https://www.minidsp.com/support/community-powered-tutorials/201-dual-sub-integration

.....and six of the sealed 13" Ultra's will run about $9000. Can do six of the sealed 15" HSU ULS-15 for $4500! Combined with the MiniDSP unit for $1K you will have massvie clean bass potential and room correction for the whole rig!

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2Dual.html


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-hsu-research-uls-15-mk2-subwoofer

Paradoxex

I don't know if you've had a lot of experience with the caliber of subs you are talking about, but a lot of different configurations work for what you want to do.

Six SB13 ultras is undeniably overkill, and that may not matter, but the amount of room they will take up is something else to consider. They are big and deep.

Also, there are other subs in the ID world that have great reputations if you are looking for real *bang* for your buck. HSU Research is probably the most value-laden of the bunch. Before I picked up Mark's PC-13 Ultra I was planning to buy a HSU for my new basement. The ULS 15 mk2 or the VTF 15 mk2 are both good choices.

Seaton Sound is another good option - the owner has been around for a long time with other companies, and with his current venture for years as well. He makes huge subs that perform amazingly. You can also chain subs together so that they use the same, huge amplifier, which produces some cost efficiencies compared to every sub having its own amp.

Having six subs will help even out the bass - but you'll hit diminishing returns quickly after two subs. I'd love to see six PB13 Ultras in a room, but I have a feeling there's a reason it's seldom done.

mikeyb128

Six is double over kill. I had 2 in a 20x20 basement, with 10 foot ceilings, a hallway at the back of the room that opened up to a bedroom, bathroom and laundry room. I had them running hot for home theater, and they absolutely crushed it down there. I would say 4 would do the trick. 2 stacked, more than enough

Joey_V

Good to hear Mikey... perhaps six might be overkill, but I doubt 4 would.

Paradoxex - 6 PB13U, yes, that would take a tremendous amount of space. However, 6 SB13U I don't think take up that much space if you can stack them.

The main thing is not to stress the subs, low volume, low distortion, low excursions... divide up the required amplified sound across 4 or 6 subs and get them to integrate. I think it would be fantastic.

Here is a picture of Rockport Cygnus with a 6 pack of REL G1.

Joey_V

Another picture with SF Stradivari and REL G1 sixpack.

Joey_V

What I'll probably do is the following:

1. I need to figure out the best way to integrate and control the outputs of multiple subs.
2. I will probably start with the dealer delivering all 6, then we work our way down. I'll stack them, integrate them and see A/B at 6 vs 4 vs 2 in my room does. Then if 2 is the sweetspot, then I'll be happy to return the other 4. If 4 is the sweet spot, then I will return 2.

Best way to test something is in your house on your terms.

Joey_V

WLDock wrote: »

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Another option a little bit cheaper but IMHO more effective than the CR-1 is the miniDSP DDRC-88A which come with Dirac Live room correction system and can handle up to 8 channels. In your case you can have the two C4s + the pair of subwoofers and set delay/phase, levels and EQ for each one independently. The miniDSP DDCR-88A is $1000.

The MiniDSP units with the Dirac Room Live are powerful tools.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-room-correction/ddrc-24-for-2-1-system
https://www.minidsp.com/support/community-powered-tutorials/201-dual-sub-integration

.....and six of the sealed 13" Ultra's will run about $9000. Can do six of the sealed 15" HSU ULS-15 for $4500! Combined with the MiniDSP unit for $1K you will have massvie clean bass potential and room correction for the whole rig!

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2Dual.html


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-hsu-research-uls-15-mk2-subwoofer

WLD - thanks!

The stuff with the Dirac... I can use that with multiple subs daisy chained and I don't have to touch the response above what the subs handle? I don't want it messing with the FR of the main speakers. Where does the dirac get plugged into the system? At what part of the chain? After the DAC before the preamp? Or is it soemthing that comes out of the line level out of the subwoofer outputs of the preamp so as to not touch the 2ch signal to the mains?

Also, with regards to HSU, does the ULS15mk2 run with the SB13U? Just by analysis of the woofer, although significantly bigger, not as "overbuilt" as the Ultra woofer?

My only worry is that 15" subs will be big.... the SB13U is compact, I've seen it in person. Stacking a couple or three in each corner is very doable.

Joey_V

Here is the comparison between PB13U and SB13U... the PB13U is way too big... the SB13U is just the right size.

If you can fit a cylindrical SVS in the corner, you can easily fit a stack of 2 or 3 SB13U in each corner.

Paradoxex

The size of the overall PB13U and HSU ULS15mk2 are virtually identical.
SB13U = 17.4x17.4x18.5 (without grille? FYI, the grille is pretty ugly)
ULS15mk2 = 19.18.19.5 with the grille, 18in cubed otherwise.

The amps on the SVS subs are pretty cool, but it doesn't sound like you'd use all the fancy digital DSP stuff if you used a miniDSP.

Also - https://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/multi-sub-optimization-with-the-ddrc-88a

Joey_V

I just think the SB13U is such a good looking sub... clean, simple, black gloss. And that woofer... *bite the back of my hand* good looking. And it punches quick too.

Joey_V

Paradoxex wrote: »

The size of the overall PB13U and HSU ULS15mk2 are virtually identical.
SB13U = 17.4x17.4x18.5 (without grille? FYI, the grille is pretty ugly)
ULS15mk2 = 19.18.19.5 with the grille, 18in cubed otherwise.

The amps on the SVS subs are pretty cool, but it doesn't sound like you'd use all the fancy digital DSP stuff if you used a miniDSP.

Also - https://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/multi-sub-optimization-with-the-ddrc-88a

The PB13U is huge... 22.5”(H) 20.5”(W) 28”(D)

The ULS15mk2 does seem to be nearly same size as SB13U... probably just bigger an inch here and there. I noticed, no gloss black though. That would be a deal killer for me.

mikeyb128

Here's one of my pb ultras.. And yeah they are huge..

Thought I would hate that curved metal grill. But in person it's very nice. Not to mention bullet proof.

Paradoxex

I meant the SB13U in my post...sorry. Yes, the PB13U is massive. I would take one in a heartbeat though. No hate!

Joey, go get 6 PC-13Us instead!

Joey_V

Paradoxex wrote: »

I meant the SB13U in my post...sorry. Yes, the PB13U is massive. I would take one in a heartbeat though. No hate!

Joey, go get 6 PC-13Us instead!

Hhahaha... No ports!

And 6 pcu... Would that double as bass traps since I'll just disperse them across the room? Hahaha

Joey_V

mikeyb128 wrote: »

Here's one of my pb ultras.. And yeah they are huge..

Thought I would hate that curved metal grill. But in person it's very nice. Not to mention bullet proof.

Yikes that's huge!

Which focals are those?

Paradoxex

You could always go after one of these, and turn it into an end table...

http://www.deepseasound.com/products/mariana-24sc-24-subwoofer

WLDock

Joey_V wrote: »

The stuff with the Dirac... I can use that with multiple subs daisy chained and I don't have to touch the response above what the subs handle? I don't want it messing with the FR of the main speakers. Where does the dirac get plugged into the system? At what part of the chain? After the DAC before the preamp? Or is it soemthing that comes out of the line level out of the subwoofer outputs of the preamp so as to not touch the 2ch signal to the mains?

You can pull the signal off the preamp's preouts for the sub. You don't have to but....If one wanted to add DSP to the main channels for room correction and to High Pass the speakers to take the low end strain off....This unit has 8 channels: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a

One example would be to get give all six subs individual channel and two for your left and right main speakers. Yes, you being an audio purist are not fond of the idea of DSP in the signal chain. However, if you have such a powerful unit in your possession, why not try it to see how it sounds? Acoustic treatments mated with digital correction might be effective. Several companies like Legacy Audio V, Emerald Physics, Sanders Sound Systems are using it. Sanders swears much was improved when they added it to their electrostatic system. Their room sounded amazing at the Chi show this year.

Here is a one line diagram of the connection. The DDRC-24
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-room-correction/ddrc-24-for-2-1-system

Joey_V wrote: »

Also, with regards to HSU, does the ULS15mk2 run with the SB13U? Just by analysis of the woofer, although significantly bigger, not as "overbuilt" as the Ultra woofer?

Both use a beefy low distortion driver. The CES 2010 numbers for the improved mkII version HSU are pretty respectable: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
The ULS has always gotten great feedback in terms of sound and this newer version has more output.

Joey_V wrote: »

The ULS15mk2 does seem to be nearly same size as SB13U... probably just bigger an inch here and there. I noticed, no gloss black though. That would be a deal killer for me.

The gloss SVS is pretty sweet. Only Satin Black for the HSU...they used to do a Piano black years ago. Half the cost of the SVS! And with six, either sub should get you there in terms of a clean impactful low end. Heck, with single subs you see the tops of them...with a line array all you see is the massive front, LOL!

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-04-ULS-15.jpg

Joey_V

Paradoxex wrote: »

You could always go after one of these, and turn it into an end table...

http://www.deepseasound.com/products/mariana-24sc-24-subwoofer

What the...

Joey_V

WLDock wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

The stuff with the Dirac... I can use that with multiple subs daisy chained and I don't have to touch the response above what the subs handle? I don't want it messing with the FR of the main speakers. Where does the dirac get plugged into the system? At what part of the chain? After the DAC before the preamp? Or is it soemthing that comes out of the line level out of the subwoofer outputs of the preamp so as to not touch the 2ch signal to the mains?

You can pull the signal off the preamp's preouts for the sub. You don't have to but....If one wanted to add DSP to the main channels for room correction and to High Pass the speakers to take the low end strain off....This unit has 8 channels: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a

One example would be to get give all six subs individual channel and two for your left and right main speakers. Yes, you being an audio purist are not fond of the idea of DSP in the signal chain. However, if you have such a powerful unit in your possession, why not try it to see how it sounds? Acoustic treatments mated with digital correction might be effective. Several companies like Legacy Audio V, Emerald Physics, Sanders Sound Systems are using it. Sanders swears much was improved when they added it to their electrostatic system. Their room sounded amazing at the Chi show this year.

Here is a one line diagram of the connection. The DDRC-24
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-room-correction/ddrc-24-for-2-1-system

Joey_V wrote: »

Also, with regards to HSU, does the ULS15mk2 run with the SB13U? Just by analysis of the woofer, although significantly bigger, not as "overbuilt" as the Ultra woofer?

Both use a beefy low distortion driver. The CES 2010 numbers for the improved mkII version HSU are pretty respectable: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
The ULS has always gotten great feedback in terms of sound and this newer version has more output.

Joey_V wrote: »

The ULS15mk2 does seem to be nearly same size as SB13U... probably just bigger an inch here and there. I noticed, no gloss black though. That would be a deal killer for me.

The gloss SVS is pretty sweet. Only Satin Black for the HSU...they used to do a Piano black years ago. Half the cost of the SVS! And with six, either sub should get you there in terms of a clean impactful low end. Heck, with single subs you see the tops of them...with a line array all you see is the massive front, LOL!

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-04-ULS-15.jpg

Yo buddy

But I can still run the DRC just for the subs as well? My plan was to room correct for the subs, but keep the 2ch purely at 2ch. Cut the subs off at 35hz, let the mains go full range.

I like the idea of saving some money on the ULS15... most definitely. I bet I can get away with 4.

That said, the gloss does complete the look, although the woofers wouldn't look the same anyway even if I brought home the SVS SB13U compared to my mains, but the black gloss would match to a "T".

Either way, 4 or 6 of these subs, that'll be sick. The headroom would be massive and I would be running the subs nearly at idle. I'd probably just turn the subs on when I'm listening to hip hop or something.

I'm already trying to convince my local buddy to get 6 subs.... just so I can play with it in his system. Ha

Joey_V

WLD

Question, I looked at the link, would I run the Dirac off the preamp or off the DAC?

Do you know if the SVS subs have some sort of a parametric EQ embedded that I can utilize and play with initially before investing in a Dirac?

Joey_V

I'm reading the SVS manual. If I have 2 sub towers, then technically, it would be like setting up only 2 subs. I could effectively run 2 subs, check the room response, and then adjust the SVS PEQ accordingly then run the rest off a similar PEQ, then run all 6 and check FR.

This might be easier than expected... if subs were located in 6 different locations, then that would be a freaking pain.

mikeyb128

WLDock has some great info to go by Joey. Although I haven't heard the HSU mentioned I have experience with a VTF 15h mkii a friend of mine had, we both came to the conclusion my pb ultra Was the better performer (but for much more money (he has gone with JTR). we both thought the svs has an impeccable finish, you won't find a flaw on them. Svs subs do have the option to high pass the signal being sent to the the amplifiers via the line level outs, even my lowely sb 1000 has this.

Maybe add servo controlled rythmics to the list. They are awesome subs.

I think Ron and Walt have some really good info here, beyond my experience. These guys know their stuff.

P.s. The focals are Aria 926 in my theater

WLDock

Joey_V wrote: »

But I can still run the DRC just for the subs as well? My plan was to room correct for the subs, but keep the 2ch purely at 2ch. Cut the subs off at 35hz, let the mains go full range.

The SVS has a nice amount of control built in. I know you got the six stacked line array idea from the REL setup...however, I think four Ultra's is what you are after. Should be more than enough slam for even the largest rooms plus you get the gloss finish and $3200 cheaper than six! To keep the room from shaking and causing too much unwanted resonance, I would go overboard with decoupling and add the Soundpath Isolation Feet http://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-subwoofer-isolation-system to all four subs and also get an isolation riser for each stack.

http://www.auralex.com/product/subdude-ht/


Will give the it a little more height and presence...the stack should be about 40". Some have reported improved clarity, output, and less resonance using one or the other. Both would be overkill...but why not for a heavy hitter like yourself...LOL!

Also, get Bass Traps for all four corners if you have yet to do so. The more bass you have the more the peaks get excited!

http://www.auralex.com/products/bass-traps/